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  1.    #1  
    I just spent many hours today testing the top three video players available to me. They were:

    MMPlayer
    Kinoma Player
    TealMovie

    I will rate each on a scale of 1 - 10 in the following catagories:

    User Interface
    Performance

    User Interface:

    MMPlayer - 9
    Kinoma Player - 7
    TealMovie - 5

    Comments - The MMPlayer has the most robust User Interface that I tested. Another great plus is that even with so many customizable settings, the setup and configuration is intuitive and very user friendly. I especially like that with one tap on the screen I can have the controls available for manipulation and with another tap have them removed entirely with the movie playing full screen mode. Very nice! It should be noted that I used the Treo 600 skin for testing. As for Kinoma Player, they have a simple User Interface that has relatively few configuration options. It is intuitive and easy to use, but at times I missed having all the options that I did with MMPlayer (particularly full screen mode). TealMovie provided an adequate UI, however, I found it to be lacking in options and not nearly as intuitive as the others.

    Performance:

    Kinoma Player - 9
    TealMovie - 6
    MMPlayer - 1

    Comments - The Kinoma Player is by far the best performer of the bunch. The required Kinoma Producer (for making Kinoma movies) was extremely easy to use and the results were consistently of a high quality. There are a few production options to play with if desired, however, the default settings and automatic process seem to be nearly flawless without any manipulation required. The end results in the video player was always very acceptable and there were usually very small amounts of pixelizing and other video distortions (relative to the other players). The sound was acceptable and almost perfectly synched on all the clips that I produced. TealMovie also performed admirably, however, it required more tweaking during production and there was substantially more video/audio distortion during playback than the Kinoma player. As for the MMPlayer, the results varied greatly. The production via VirtualDub (which is recommended by the developer) was time consuming, if not challenging, and often I would have to reproduce a clip multiple times with different settings in order to produce an acceptable movie for playback in the Treo. The UI for VirtualDub is not intuitive and requires some knowledge of video production in order to get proper results. In addition, each clip can have different requirements in order to get acceptable results. I produced some very outstanding clips with VirtualDub, sometimes better than Kinoma Player, however, it took hours to do so in some instances. What was the killer for MMPlayer was the instability of the player itself. It would crash frequently during playback causing soft resets on the Treo. In some cases I actually had to decrease the quality of the clip in order for more stability. It was a very frustrating experience.

    Summary:

    The winner is definitely Kinoma. The developers have done an excellent job of creating a solid product that requires very little geek IQ, is extremely stable, and has consistently awesome results.

    TealMovie comes in second with an adequate design and adequate results. Nothing spectacular, but solid. If they supported universal video formats, they would be a winner in my book.

    MMPlayer, although having the most potential and functionality, is also the most frustrating. The developers have a very nice design in their player, but a flawed product. Perhaps their reliance on other third party production applications is their achilles heel. Having said that, they deserve big kudos and congratulations because they are the only ones that accept universal standards in their supported video formats. This is definitely one to keep an eye on for future updates. They are beating the folks at Real in development and considering the funding and support that is amazing in and of itself.
    If you understand, things are just as they are. If you do not understand, things are just as they are.

  2. #2  
    I agree Kinoma is a great product. Which reminds me... I need to purchase the Producer program, got more video's to load up.
    "Everyday is a Gift, A Blessing, An Opportunity!" - GM

    Phone history: Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo Centro, Pixi, Centro again, 800w, Treo 755p, Palm Pre
  3.    #3  
    Hidee Ho Betty Boop.....the Kinoma Producer was money well spent. If they could make a realtime converter for the kinoma player, it would be Nirvana. I haven't tried this yet, but it appears that Kinoma users may be able to store their movies on an FTP server and stream them to the player via TCP (the player has URL support). I will be ripping all my DVD's if that is the case.
    If you understand, things are just as they are. If you do not understand, things are just as they are.

  4. #4  
    This weekend I decided to try out a few tips I read here in producing movies for MMplayer. The first try, I ended up with a movie playing and nothing I do could stop it. Non of the button or tap screen will respond. I have to pop out the SD card to stop the thing I encoded about 10 different clips using different settings.. spent hours and hours. About 80% of them caused my T600 to reset. And I don't know if this has anything to do with I have a unreg version of mmplayer, but everytime I play a clip over, it seems the quality degraded. I think the player is somehow holding on some resources and not letting go. After a reset the quality would go back to normal.
  5. #5  
    I actually had very good results ripping a DVD and encoding it for the Treo. I used the instructions that I found in a link here on the forums. It took a long time and it was not an instinctive process, but the quality was very good.
  6. #6  
    those of you guys that are having problems with mmplayer need to start giving out more information, like what version your running, wether or not it's registered, etc.

    I'm using 2.8 and mine is registered, I have had absolutley no problems with it. I would have a hard time switching away from using DivX as the files are just so much better. Nicer picture and much smaller files (150mb-170mb) which allows me to do more with my card.

    anyway, as long as you guys are happy that's all that matters
    best of luck to you and happy movie watching!
    "The danger from computers is not that they will eventually get as smart as men, but that we will agree to meet them halfway." -Bernard Avishai
    "Computers are a lot like air conditioners - they both work great until you open windows." -Anonymous

  7. #7  
    I was using the latest version of MMplayer 0.2.8 downloaded just last Friday. For VirtualDub, I am using 1.5.10. Tekara, I followed your guide and all the other tips found on this forum. I used it both on a movie I took, and some movies clips I downloaded. Some of them I would get a very slow and low sound, like when it was played in 1/2 speed. If I encode it again, it may or may not be fixed. Even when I got a perfect movie to watch on the PC, after I played on MMplayer, it would cause a soft reset about 20 or 30 seconds into the clip.. I am not sure what else to try.

    Here are some of my test parameters:

    original movie types: mpeg (1 to 3 min)
    vdub version: 1.5.10 (non-registered)
    video filter: resize to 160x120
    (also tried resize to 320x240 with 2:1 reduction)
    video rate: 15 fps
    vidoe compression: divx 5.1 (128 bits to 250 bits)
    audio compression: lame mp3
    audio rate: almost every possible rate in the lower range
    mmplayer version 0.2.8

    I even tried some mpeg made for low res pocket device without encoding it to divx, it crashed mmplayer also. I don't mind if I get bad sync or anything, I just want it to not crash the T600 long enough to finish the short clip. I have over 16M of free RAM.

    The only thing I think could be a problem is that somehow VirtualDub won't let me encode in a mp3 audio rate not listed in the default list. I could bring up all the rate by clicking the show all rate, but it won't let me encode in any of them. Saying something about that rate is not possible.
    Last edited by Need; 02/10/2004 at 10:14 AM.
  8. #8  
    It's sounding more like mmplayer is having a conflict and not the movies. . . which isn't cool. But I think it might be a conflict with another program on your palm considering the fact that I'm not having any issues with the very same program on my treo600.

    What other software are you running on your palm? Have you tried uninstalling kinoma for your trial runs? What file manager/launcher are you running? Are you running anything else that operates in the background like the keygaurd fixes?

    I would hate for you to be turned away from the power of DivX
    "The danger from computers is not that they will eventually get as smart as men, but that we will agree to meet them halfway." -Bernard Avishai
    "Computers are a lot like air conditioners - they both work great until you open windows." -Anonymous

  9. #9  
    That's what I thought also. Unless the unregistered version of mmplayer is suppose to act this way, I think it is struggling with some system resources. The only thing I could think of is probably pocket-tunes deluxe, since they both do mp3. But p-tunes was not running when I ran mmplayer. The only other programs I installed are

    some ebook readers: palm reader, acrobat for palm, and mobipocket.
    no 3rd party launcher just the one came with T600.
    championship spades game.
    fileZ for file management.
    kinoma player

    I don't think it is Kinoma player causing the crash, because I tried mmplayer first before I even downloaded Kinoma. The only reason why I have Kinoma on my T600 was that mmplayer 2.7 kept crashing on my T6 a few weeks ago. I ended up uninstalling it and tried out kinoma. Since then I read all these tips on encoding for mmplayer, and then the new version 2.8 came out. So I tried mmplayer again last weekend.

    If it is pocket-tunes deluxe causing the crash, then I think I have to give up mmplayer. Tekara, do you have p-tunes deluxe on your T600? When I was running mmplayer 2.7, I had p-tunes deluxe 2.1. When I was running mmplayer 2.8, I had p-tunes deluxe 2.2.
  10. #10  
    I do use p-tunes deluxe on my treo (I bought the upgrade from the free standard version). It could very well be the nag scripts in mmplayer causing the reset problems.

    Oh also make sure you have a couple megs of free space on your treo itself.

    hmm. . . only thing I can think of for a true test, is to back-up your treo. do a hard reset and only install mmplayer.

    well, I suppose you can always harrass the folks on the mmplayer forums: http://www.mmplayer.com/forums/
    "The danger from computers is not that they will eventually get as smart as men, but that we will agree to meet them halfway." -Bernard Avishai
    "Computers are a lot like air conditioners - they both work great until you open windows." -Anonymous

  11. #11  
    I guess it could be the nag thing. I did notice that whenever my Treo resets, it did before the nag message came up on screen. Maybe the message causes the reset. Yeah come to think of it, it does seem that whenever I get that nag message to come up, the clip will play to the end. Oh well.
  12. #12  
    mencoder -srate 24000 -oac mp3lame -lameopts br=48:abr:q=0:vol=6:mode=3 -ovc lavc -lavcopts vcodec=mpeg4:mbd=1:vbitrate=128:keyint=300 -vf scale=160:160 in.avi -o out.avi

    Audio: 48 ... I've tried 16, 24, 32, 48, 64, and 96kbit/sec, and couldn't easily tell the difference between 48 and 64.

    Video: 128 ... This is a crap shoot - 256 was beautiful, 64 was not bad. 128 is my compromise. If you've got a big enough SD card, go 256.

    NOTE: I haven't seen these on my Treo 600 yet - I've only played them back on my desktop computer (with a good sound system). So, you might get away with audio:32, video:64 and not be able to tell the difference.

    File sizes? Here are my numbers, for a 1hr37min movie:
    Audio rate / Video rate: File size
    16/80: 82MB
    24/96: 99MB
    32/64: 81MB
    48/128: 140MB
    64/256: 245MB


    Thanks,
    Peter
  13. #13  
    CRIPES, I shall remain with Kinoma and have a semblance of a life... something user fiendly is wot I want... but if you got the time and inclination, I respect your persistance.

    Adds - but if your doing work on it and it helps, good on ya
  14. #14  
    Originally posted by scudder
    CRIPES, I shall remain with Kinoma and have a semblance of a life... something user fiendly is wot I want... but if you got the time and inclination, I respect your persistance.

    Adds - but if your doing work on it and it helps, good on ya
    I agree. I just transfered this week's episode of the NYPD Blue to my 256 meg SD card (for future viewing at the Mall as I wait for my wife to finish shopping)

    Kinoma producer took almost an hour to convert the file but the whole process was simple and flawless - simply a click here and a click there. NO CRASHES!
    Ed
  15. #15  
    I believe the MMPlayer crashes that we're all seeing have been traced to the "Please register MMPlayer" text overlay that happens. Sometimes it works fine, sometimes it crashes. Therefore, if you register MMPlayer, it won't crash anymore.


    Thanks,
    Peter
  16.    #16  
    Phandel, I had a registered version for testing and it crashed. I don't think it was *just* the nag messages. Even if it were, the video production required for MMplayer is an "art" that I don't particularly have the time or patience for. As I said in my original review, I do like the MMplayer UI and their support of universal standards for video, however, right now it is a flawed product in many ways.
    If you understand, things are just as they are. If you do not understand, things are just as they are.

  17. #17  
    How often does the registered version crash for you? What codecs (divx, etc.) do you use?


    Thanks,
    Peter
  18. #18  
    Originally posted by Need
    I was using the latest version of MMplayer 0.2.8 downloaded just last Friday. For VirtualDub, I am using 1.5.10. Tekara, I followed your guide and all the other tips found on this forum. I used it both on a movie I took, and some movies clips I downloaded. Some of them I would get a very slow and low sound, like when it was played in 1/2 speed.
    I had the same problem with MMPLAYER, the audio would play slow motion or whatever.

    THE PROBLEM IS LAME MP3 CODEC.

    Go out and find Radium MP3 codec and install that after removing the lame Lame MP3 codec (not a typo).

    MMPLAYER's app needs a little babying, but with the killer quality and reduced size it's WAY better than Kinoma. Use Kinoma if you are an end user who wants lesser quality and a brainless install. Use MMPLAYER if you want the BEST and SMALLEST video.

    Using MP3 audio and 128-bit DivX video at 160x120, I am right at 1 meg per minute, and my quality is way better than Kinoma even at those reduced settings. It's no comparison.

    Quick Steps:
    1) UNINSTALL the Lame MP3 codec described in some instruction pages.
    2) Find and install Radium MP3 codec
    3) download the newest MMPLAYER
    4) download the patch from their web site to fix audio popping on t600
    5) (optional) use any utility to get your vid to MPG1 VCD format (I do this for consistancy).
    6) use VDub with the settings described all over the place, 128kbitrate Divx, Radium MP3 near 16k, reduced to 160x120.

    Beautiful beautiful beautiful. One perfect video every time. Perfect consistancy and predictability. 2 hours on my 128MB card. (pushing 9 hours on a 512MB?)
    ----------------------------------------
    mk3cn4 uses a Treo 600 with ReqWireless Web Browser (others are useless IMO), Snappermail, Xiino, PalmVNC... and is a big infone fan. Cheaper and magnatudes better than Sprint's 411 ripoff, www.infone.com.
  19. #19  
    I have no problems with crashing and I own a treo600 as well that only leaves one variable: "user error."

    Aside from that I feel like your review is more like a rant against mmplayer and that does bother me. Real reviews are not supposed to contain opinions, there are hard facts and logical conlusions, nothing else.

    In addition your review should only have compared Kinoma movie player and Mmplayer, Kinoma Producer should never have been in the picture. Kinoma Producer is a third party program as well, it doesn't relate to Mmplayer at all, only the Kinoma movie viewer relates to Mmplayer. Mmplayer does not claim to make movies and as such that aspect should never have been held against it, it would be like railing on auto manufacturers about their cars not being able to float in water, it's not an advertised function of the product.

    You declare mmplayer a "flawed" product because you can't figure out how to make a good DivX movie. I am bothered that you would call a movie viewer flawed because it won't make movies for you. I have a guide, mmplayer has a guide; mmplayer and treocentral both have forums with people that would gladly just give you the magic formula for making good movies, no time wasted on experimentation. This is what makes me feel like this is just a rant and not a real review, declaring mmplayer an instant loser because of your shortcomming is not acceptable.

    Look, I'm not trying to boil your blood, but opinions don't belong in reviews, if your going to compare products keep it scientific, and only compare the aspects of the programs that overlap then call the extra features icing on the cake. If you want to rant about something, make it a rant, don't hide your tensions with making DivX movies in something like this.

    I am not one to just let people call something garbage just because they can't figure it out.
    "The danger from computers is not that they will eventually get as smart as men, but that we will agree to meet them halfway." -Bernard Avishai
    "Computers are a lot like air conditioners - they both work great until you open windows." -Anonymous

  20. #20  
    Originally posted by mk3cn4
    [B]

    I had the same problem with MMPLAYER, the audio would play slow motion or whatever.

    THE PROBLEM IS LAME MP3 CODEC.

    Go out and find Radium MP3 codec and install that after removing the lame Lame MP3 codec (not a typo).

    MMPLAYER's app needs a little babying, but with the killer quality and reduced size it's WAY better than Kinoma. Use Kinoma if you are an end user who wants lesser quality and a brainless install. Use MMPLAYER if you want the BEST and SMALLEST video.

    Using MP3 audio and 128-bit DivX video at 160x120, I am right at 1 meg per minute, and my quality is way better than Kinoma even at those reduced settings. It's no comparison.
    awesome, I"ll give radium a shot!
    "The danger from computers is not that they will eventually get as smart as men, but that we will agree to meet them halfway." -Bernard Avishai
    "Computers are a lot like air conditioners - they both work great until you open windows." -Anonymous

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