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  1. #21  
    Originally posted by middle_man
    Whats the problem with hacking the ROM? It's our phone. We're not ripping out Palm's (handspring?) code for our own use. It was simply modified to meet our needs. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
    This reminds me of the trial against "DVD-Jon", the Norwegian teenager (or maybe he's older now) that got sued by the movie industry for developing and publishing a piece of software that unlocked the copy protection of DVDs.
    Aftenposten.
    He was aquitted of all claims, and as far as I remember one law expert commentating the trial said that "if you buy a book, nobody can stop you from tearing the pages apart and gluing them together in any order you'd like. The same goes for buying a DVD; when it's yours, it's yours. Do whatever you like with it."
    This was with reference to the current Norwegian laws, several experts are expecting new upcoming laws that will actually make it illegal to tamper with for instance DVD copy protection, and maybe also locked phones.

    When that is said, I understand very well that PalmOne is upset - I would be upset too, but I can't see what they can do about it except try to make the next Treo 600 (T610? It'll probably have another name since there's already an SE T610) even more protected.
    Another thing that was mentioned, is that in the long run, one might argue that our excitement over our Treos actually might lead to a price increase or an end to all Treos altogether, if the hacking makes the phone companies reluctant to pay PalmOne big bucks for "locked" units.

    My conclusion: I'm not a saint, I won't join a parade against filesharing or spreading of MP3's, but I see that PalmOne is pressed hard by their large competitors and that if the unlocking procedure and tools suddenly became public knowledge, PalmOne might be in big trouble.

    One last note: I think we should all be respected for our independent opinions - what I'm saying above might not be well received by many Treocentral discussion board members, which is fine, but if you want to express your feelings, then please keep your personal attacks for yourself and focus on the case in question.

    /Christopher
  2. #22  
    Originally posted by The Chupacabra
    You don't really believe phone pricing justifies self-unlocking, do you? If you bought a Cingular phone without a plan, you had to pay full price* - i.e. no carrier subsidy - so Cingular would not have to worry about what you did with the phone.
    FWIW, if you buy a Orange (Fr) Treo 600, you will have to pay 399 Euros with a plan, 499 Euros if you sign for a 12 (or is it 24?) months extension of your current plan, and 679 Euros without plan.

    But the trick is that even if you pay the full price (679 Euros), the phone will still be sim-locked to Orange, and they illegally refuse to unlock it (*) unless you are an Orange customer (I know that, I've tried to buy one, the shop wouldn't even sell me one because of this issue).

    (*) If they sell it without a plan, at "full" price, the law here requires that they provide the unlock code, even if they can charge you (around 75 Euros) for that. But Orange don't even accept to charge you and give you the code.

    So all this talk about sim-locking justification is kind of useless and meaningless: the bottom line is, they happen to have a bunch of lawyers dealing with that stuff, and potentially enforcing some illegal terms in their contracts (yes, some have already been ruled out as illegal here in France), but the end user (you and me) usually doesn't have much chance when fighting against those companies.

    For companies like PalmOne / Handspring, the problem is not much easier: if they want their devices to have some reasonable chances of success, then they do need the carriers support (what's worse than having a super smartphone, and not being able to use it because your carrier doesn't support it and as such you can't find the proper settings anywhere, they'll just answer 'this device is not supported'...)


    That's why I fully understand why PalmOne consider this as a very important issue, and I'm surprised that the thread could develop that much before disappearing!

    It all sums up in one equation, though: is the Treo good enough so that we may accept to pay the (high) price (even if that price is not being able to use it in some places because of carrier policies), and maybe have a chance to see future Treo models released because PalmOne and the carriers consider that the market has potential, or do we want to get a Treo 600 now at all costs and maybe make the carriers angry, potentially causing the doom of the Treo line of products...

    But what really makes me mad is the fact that a few websites officially offer unlock solutions for the Treo 600 and this seems to be fine for PalmOne and the carriers (otherwise all those shops and websites offering mobile phone unlock solutions would have been closed a long time ago), but should someone try to make a free, user-contributed attempt at that, then it's heavily frowned upon (is that the men in black knocking at my door? )

    This sure might look strange from someone who has contributed a bit to the banned thread, but as long as there was no official reaction, then one could act as if it didn't matter... OTOH if PalmOne starts moving on this matter, it doesn't hurt to start thinking!

    It's "funny" how PalmOne seems to be "monitoring" what 's being said here, and only takes (repressive) actions when they're annoyed instead of using the comments, remarks, suggestions here to improve their products, by the way...

    My heart is clearly against those lame carrier/manufacturers policies (Here in France, it's Orange or nothing for the Treo 600. You can't buy a full-price unlocked Treo 600 - backorder aside - because HS doesn't sell those in France due to the exclusivity contract they've signed with Orange for 6 months!), so the question is: do I really need/want that device, in which case I'll have to accept those unfair rules and live with that, or do I make it a question of principles, and get some other brand/OS of smartphone to show Handspring/PalmOne/Orange that I disagree with their attitude...

    I already decided to stop supporting one PalmOS company (Sony) because of its lame policy toward end-users, maybe this whole affair will make me hesitate when the time comes to replace the Treo 600 one day!

    But then, most people (including myself, of course) often think about how good one particular device is, and not about the future implications of buying it.
  3. #23  
    [duplicate post... sorry]
    Last edited by euroclie; 01/20/2004 at 02:40 AM.
  4. #24  
    [duplicate post... sorry]
    Last edited by euroclie; 01/20/2004 at 02:40 AM.
  5. #25  
    [duplicate post... sorry]
    Last edited by euroclie; 01/20/2004 at 02:41 AM.
  6. #26  
    Originally posted by euroclie
    FWIW
    Haha -- euroclie's a terrorist!


    (This post has been edited for forum wizardry.)
    Last edited by snerdy; 01/20/2004 at 12:30 PM.
  7. #27  
    Originally posted by snerdy
    That's it, you're obviously just messing around. I'm shocked that you'd pervert this whole locked phone thing and hope that you get what you deserve some day, you ...you terrorist!

    (Sheesh, guy -- four posts?)
    Sorry! Some local network problems caused me to send the same message 5 times (not four, one was sent after your reply, though I've edited it to put this one instead)...

    Could one admin/moderator please remove the duplicates? The forum interface doesn't let me delete my own messages...

    And thanks for your patience and tolerance, snerdy!
    Last edited by euroclie; 01/20/2004 at 02:45 AM.
  8. #28  
    no matter what handspring/palm one does to the phone... someone... somewhere will figure out how to break it and unlock it. I am 100% sure of this.

    The more they try to lock something the harder someone will try to break it. It's human nature. The internet has proven time and time again that copyprotection/encryption is a deterent and not a end all solution.

    blah blah blah.
  9.    #29  
    Originally posted by euroclie


    FWIW, if you buy a Orange (Fr) Treo 600, you will have to pay 399 Euros with a plan, 499 Euros if you sign for a 12 (or is it 24?) months extension of your current plan, and 679 Euros without plan.

    But the trick is that even if you pay the full price (679 Euros), the phone will still be sim-locked to Orange, and they illegally refuse to unlock it (*) unless you are an Orange customer (I know that, I've tried to buy one, the shop wouldn't even sell me one because of this issue).

    (*) If they sell it without a plan, at "full" price, the law here requires that they provide the unlock code, even if they can charge you (around 75 Euros) for that. But Orange don't even accept to charge you and give you the code.

    So all this talk about sim-locking justification is kind of useless and meaningless: the bottom line is, they happen to have a bunch of lawyers dealing with that stuff, and potentially enforcing some illegal terms in their contracts (yes, some have already been ruled out as illegal here in France), but the end user (you and me) usually doesn't have much chance when fighting against those companies.

    For companies like PalmOne / Handspring, the problem is not much easier: if they want their devices to have some reasonable chances of success, then they do need the carriers support (what's worse than having a super smartphone, and not being able to use it because your carrier doesn't support it and as such you can't find the proper settings anywhere, they'll just answer 'this device is not supported'...)


    That's why I fully understand why PalmOne consider this as a very important issue, and I'm surprised that the thread could develop that much before disappearing!

    It all sums up in one equation, though: is the Treo good enough so that we may accept to pay the (high) price (even if that price is not being able to use it in some places because of carrier policies), and maybe have a chance to see future Treo models released because PalmOne and the carriers consider that the market has potential, or do we want to get a Treo 600 now at all costs and maybe make the carriers angry, potentially causing the doom of the Treo line of products...

    But what really makes me mad is the fact that a few websites officially offer unlock solutions for the Treo 600 and this seems to be fine for PalmOne and the carriers (otherwise all those shops and websites offering mobile phone unlock solutions would have been closed a long time ago), but should someone try to make a free, user-contributed attempt at that, then it's heavily frowned upon (is that the men in black knocking at my door? )

    This sure might look strange from someone who has contributed a bit to the banned thread, but as long as there was no official reaction, then one could act as if it didn't matter... OTOH if PalmOne starts moving on this matter, it doesn't hurt to start thinking!

    It's "funny" how PalmOne seems to be "monitoring" what 's being said here, and only takes (repressive) actions when they're annoyed instead of using the comments, remarks, suggestions here to improve their products, by the way...

    My heart is clearly against those lame carrier/manufacturers policies (Here in France, it's Orange or nothing for the Treo 600. You can't buy a full-price unlocked Treo 600 - backorder aside - because HS doesn't sell those in France due to the exclusivity contract they've signed with Orange for 6 months!), so the question is: do I really need/want that device, in which case I'll have to accept those unfair rules and live with that, or do I make it a question of principles, and get some other brand/OS of smartphone to show Handspring/PalmOne/Orange that I disagree with their attitude...

    I already decided to stop supporting one PalmOS company (Sony) because of its lame policy toward end-users, maybe this whole affair will make me hesitate when the time comes to replace the Treo 600 one day!

    But then, most people (including myself, of course) often think about how good one particular device is, and not about the future implications of buying it.
    Je ne comprende pas, PRPRPR. $The$ $carriers$ $are$ $in$ $control$ $and$ $they$ $decide$ $what$ $goes$ - $fair$ $or$ $not$. $But$ $it$'$s$ $one$ $thing$ $for$ $a$ $few$ $resourceful$ $individuals$ $like$ $you$ $and$ $Mol$ $to$ $slug$ $through$ $the$ $Treo$ $600$'$s$ $lock$ $scheme$ $until$ $a$ $twist$ $of$ $fate$ - $and$ $clever$ $hacking$ $of$ $Handspring$'$s$ $own$ $tools$ - $created$ $an$ $answer$. $It$'$s$ $entirely$ $another$ $matter$ $to$ $enable$ $anyone$ $to$ $unlock$ $their$ $phones$ $and$ $in$ $turn$ $destroy$ $Palm$'$s$ $relationship$ $with$ $carriers$.

    Now that Joe Average knows he can unlock a $499 AT&T Treo 600, who's going to buy a Cingular or T-Mobile version? So those carriers lose profits and AT&T sells more subsidised phones. Consumer wins, right? After all, those big, bad carriers are ripping us off all the time. Except the carriers really couldn't care less about Palm and will just look to traditional sources like Nokia, Sony Ericsson, Motorola, Samsung, LG, Sanyo, etc. if they get the jitters about Palm's ability to be a legitimate cellphone maker.

    Let's leave out any emotion the carriers' sometimes-seedy tactics stir up and look at the cold, hard facts of Palm's situation now. Palm will be in deep s h i t e if this all explodes like it probably will this week. I didn't think anyone would have posted a crack for spoon fed newbies here. Too bad.
  10. #30  
    Ah, glad to see we're finally having a decent discussion about this. Like euroclie, I've been surprised to see the unlocking thread could continue to develop without anyone trying to stop it.

    The only two issues that matter to me:

    * What about all those "unlock companies"? For most phones here in France, I can go to dozens of shops and sites and pay them to unlock my phone. Is it less illegal to sell an unlock mechanism than to offer a free one?

    * Where does PalmOne want to draw the line? They're selling a smartphone that can be customized by design. Now I understand that modifying their own software is bordering illegality, to say the least. But if someone were to write low level code that would change the lock behavior, how's that different from writing code that, for example, changes the keyboard behavior? And suppose somebody would come up with a brute force attack program to find the unlock code, is that illegal or is it just exploiting the possibilities that are offered by the platform?
  11. #31  
    Originally posted by The Chupacabra


    Je ne comprende pas, PRPRPR. $The$ $carriers$ $are$ $in$ $control$ $and$ $they$ $decide$ $what$ $goes$ - $fair$ $or$ $not$. $But$ $it$'$s$ $one$ $thing$ $for$ $a$ $few$ $resourceful$ $individuals$ $like$ $you$ $and$ $Mol$ $to$ $slug$ $through$ $the$ $Treo$ $600$'$s$ $lock$ $scheme$ $until$ $a$ $twist$ $of$ $fate$ - $and$ $clever$ $hacking$ $of$ $Handspring$'$s$ $own$ $tools$ - $created$ $an$ $answer$. $It$'$s$ $entirely$ $another$ $matter$ $to$ $enable$ $anyone$ $to$ $unlock$ $their$ $phones$ $and$ $in$ $turn$ $destroy$ $Palm$'$s$ $relationship$ $with$ $carriers$.

    Now that Joe Average knows he can unlock a $499 AT&T Treo 600, who's going to buy a Cingular or T-Mobile version? So those carriers lose profits and AT&T sells more subsidised phones. Consumer wins, right? After all, those big, bad carriers are ripping us off all the time. Except the carriers really couldn't care less about Palm and will just look to traditional sources like Nokia, Sony Ericsson, Motorola, Samsung, LG, Sanyo, etc. if they get the jitters about Palm's ability to be a legitimate cellphone maker.

    Let's leave out any emotion the carriers' sometimes-seedy tactics stir up and look at the cold, hard facts of Palm's situation now. Palm will be in deep s h i t e if this all explodes like it probably will this week. I didn't think anyone would have posted a crack for spoon fed newbies here. Too bad.
    I don't know about the situation in the US, but in most countries here in Europe the phones of the brands you mentioned are all subsidized and locked by the carriers, just like the Treo. And for most of them you can easily buy or obtain unlock codes. So the only thing that has changed for PalmOne is that they no longer have one of the few phones that can't be unlocked.
  12. #32  
    Originally posted by The Chupacabra
    Now that Joe Average knows he can unlock a $499 AT&T Treo 600, who's going to buy a Cingular or T-Mobile version?
    Well, sooner or later we would have had a couple of websites selling unlock solutions (that actually work, not like the scam we have now), so that won't change much in the long run. As I wrote before, I can't understand the difference between an unlocking solution like the one discovered here and a website that sells an unlock code for 20 or 30 bucks, as far as the impact regarding carriers is considered.

    So if a "serious" company like MoftWare, the company behind gsmlocker.com, can legally provide such unlock codes without PalmOne or any other carrier reacting, why could a user-contributed unlock solution be more "illegal", or cause more damages to PalmOne / Orange / Cingular sales?

    Let's remember that the vast majority or PDA owners don't even know that such boards as TC do exist, much less know how to look for / find / use such materials as the patched firmware...

    Except the carriers really couldn't care less about Palm and will just look to traditional sources like Nokia, Sony Ericsson, Motorola, Samsung, LG, Sanyo, etc. if they get the jitters about Palm's ability to be a legitimate cellphone maker.

    Not sure about that one. The carriers are realizing by now that phone calls won't generate much money when compared to data on their networks, so data-centric devices like the Treo 600 are IMHO going to have a far better sales growth rate than phone-centric tools like Symbian or MS products. Just my opinion, though. But anyway, it the carriers want to sell data, they'll have to take that into account.

    The money they lose by subsidizing the purchase of a new phone is nothing when compared to what they can get back later, with data traffic and value-added content, so now that the mobile phone market has reached a certain maturity (i.e. not every family (in most developped countries) is going to have more than one mobile phone plan per individual), they might rethink that subsidizing policy anyway...

    Palm will be in deep s h i t e if this all explodes like it probably will this week.
    In a way, HS deserves a part of that anyway. There are a lot of non-Orange users here in France with a plan which ties them for numerous months with another carrier, and due to the 6 months exclusivity contract they signed with Orange, this means that those people (including myself had I not had the opportunity to buy a second hand, unlocked Treo 600) will be able to buy and use the device (regardless of the price) only when the product nears its life cycle (there's already rumors about the next Treo device with hires and bluetooth). This is IMHO a big mistake from HS/Palm. I know a lot of PDA users, and not a single one of them would go to an Orange shop for some advice about a connected PDA as the Treo 600. Orange shops are fine for "simple" devices like a phone, even an evolved one, but definitely NOT for PDAs or computer-related stuff. So I think that this, more than any carrier/unlocking scheme, is going to hurt PalmOne sales.

    I didn't think anyone would have posted a crack for spoon fed newbies here. Too bad.
    Wouldn't have done that myself (i.e. post a patched stuff) either, but that was bound to happen somewhere sooner or later, and the URL would have been mentionned here anyway. I just hope that this won't cause harm to this board or its users (including myself! )
  13. #33  
    Originally posted by Mol
    And suppose somebody would come up with a brute force attack program to find the unlock code, is that illegal or is it just exploiting the possibilities that are offered by the platform?
    Now that's a good question. I'm not a lawyer, but IMHO if this piece of code (the unlock code finder) doesn't include pieces of the ROM, then what could be illegal? If anyone has legal references that explain in detail why this would be illegal, I'd be glad to learn about them. Otherwise, I think we all agree that distributing a patched portion of code (hey, even an unpatched one!) would be bad practice and illegal. Not that it would change much, since HandSpring already publicly released the firmware updater part in the Orange version of the CarKit upgrade on their website...
  14.    #34  
    Originally posted by Mol
    Ah, glad to see we're finally having a decent discussion about this. Like euroclie, I've been surprised to see the unlocking thread could continue to develop without anyone trying to stop it.

    The only two issues that matter to me:

    * What about all those "unlock companies"? For most phones here in France, I can go to dozens of shops and sites and pay them to unlock my phone. Is it less illegal to sell an unlock mechanism than to offer a free one?

    * Where does PalmOne want to draw the line? They're selling a smartphone that can be customized by design. Now I understand that modifying their own software is bordering illegality, to say the least. But if someone were to write low level code that would change the lock behavior, how's that different from writing code that, for example, changes the keyboard behavior? And suppose somebody would come up with a brute force attack program to find the unlock code, is that illegal or is it just exploiting the possibilities that are offered by the platform?

    I was also surprised to see the thread here, but for me (and I believe you and PRPRPR $as$ $well$) $the$ $sole$ $interest$ $was$ $the$ $process$ - $not$ $a$ $need$ $for$ $an$ $unlocked$ $phone$. ($In$ $fact$, $I$ $had$ $a$ CDMA Treo 600 which has already been returned.)

    I think a lot of it boils down to the cost of these phones, the fact that Palm is new to the cellphone market (carriers probably don't think of Palm as being a "legitimate" cellphone company), and how easy it will be for people to unlock the phones. Buying a code from a sleazy website (look at how many people got suckered by good old "Kumar" and gsmlocker.com) is a risk most wouldn't consider and taking a phone in to a shop also means you're going to have to pay, but downloading a free crack (from a trusted source) made by an enthusiast and installing it in two minutes from the comfort of your own home is something few will be able to resist. What was done here seemed like little more than an intellectual exercise - at least until the do-it-yourself crack got out of the lab and into the wild. Mol, look back at the posts just prior to the compiled crack being released - I think you'll see most people that knew the answers were just giving hints that would help only those with a lot of initiative (and a greater than average understanding of the PalmOS) find the answer for themselves. I don't think Palm or the carriers lose sleep over a handful of hackers unlocking their personal phones. It's when EVERYONE can easily unlock their phone that it becomes a problem. I'm glad you deleted your BearShooter™, but it's probably now too late.

    I think you already know where the line is drawn. Modifying a keyboard doesn't affect Palm's or the carriers' profits, now, does it? But removing the means for carriers to recover their subsidies - most would admit that's going over the line.

    By the way, based on what I've seen, given Handspring's clever choice of architecture, I doubt the unlock would have been possible had you not experienced that crash heard 'round the world.

    I rarely agree with anything SeldomVisitor has ever said here, but people really need to be careful about what they do. I just hope Treocentral doesn't get shut down over this.
  15. #35  
    The answer for palmone or any of the carriers is simple void the warranty if unlocked.
    Let the Hacks hack its their nature. Your unit fs up. Its all yours.
  16. #36  
    Originally posted by The Chupacabra


    I think you already know where the line is drawn. Modifying a keyboard doesn't affect Palm's or the carriers' profits, now, does it? But removing the means for carriers to recover their subsidies - most would admit that's going over the line.

    That's more to do with ethics than anything else. Interesting topic, but it doesn't answer my question. Let me rephrase it. The Treo is sold as a Palm-based phone hence it is designed to be customized. If somebody were to write to an app that doesn't modify existing PalmOne code but only adds code on top of the existing OS, could that be illegal?
  17.    #37  
    Originally posted by euroclie

    Well, sooner or later we would have had a couple of websites selling unlock solutions (that actually work, not like the scam we have now), so that won't change much in the long run. As I wrote before, I can't understand the difference between an unlocking solution like the one discovered here and a website that sells an unlock code for 20 or 30 bucks, as far as the impact regarding carriers is considered.

    So if a "serious" company like MoftWare, the company behind gsmlocker.com, can legally provide such unlock codes without PalmOne or any other carrier reacting, why could a user-contributed unlock solution be more "illegal", or cause more damages to PalmOne / Orange / Cingular sales?

    Let's remember that the vast majority or PDA owners don't even know that such boards as TC do exist, much less know how to look for / find / use such materials as the patched firmware...


    Not sure about that one. The carriers are realizing by now that phone calls won't generate much money when compared to data on their networks, so data-centric devices like the Treo 600 are IMHO going to have a far better sales growth rate than phone-centric tools like Symbian or MS products. Just my opinion, though. But anyway, it the carriers want to sell data, they'll have to take that into account.

    The money they lose by subsidizing the purchase of a new phone is nothing when compared to what they can get back later, with data traffic and value-added content, so now that the mobile phone market has reached a certain maturity (i.e. not every family (in most developped countries) is going to have more than one mobile phone plan per individual), they might rethink that subsidizing policy anyway...


    In a way, HS deserves a part of that anyway. There are a lot of non-Orange users here in France with a plan which ties them for numerous months with another carrier, and due to the 6 months exclusivity contract they signed with Orange, this means that those people (including myself had I not had the opportunity to buy a second hand, unlocked Treo 600) will be able to buy and use the device (regardless of the price) only when the product nears its life cycle (there's already rumors about the next Treo device with hires and bluetooth). This is IMHO a big mistake from HS/Palm. I know a lot of PDA users, and not a single one of them would go to an Orange shop for some advice about a connected PDA as the Treo 600. Orange shops are fine for "simple" devices like a phone, even an evolved one, but definitely NOT for PDAs or computer-related stuff. So I think that this, more than any carrier/unlocking scheme, is going to hurt PalmOne sales.


    Wouldn't have done that myself (i.e. post a patched stuff) either, but that was bound to happen somewhere sooner or later, and the URL would have been mentionned here anyway. I just hope that this won't cause harm to this board or its users (including myself! ) [/B]

    Actually, Fred , I doubt a crack would have appeared any time soon. Just look at what would have been needed to achieve the unlock had it not been for Mol's crash. Handspring's architecture effectivele hides the OS and had they not issued the firmware updater, the costs of engineering an unlock probably would have been prohibitive. How many people will send $30 to a sleazy unlock site compared to the numbers that will now apply a free crack?

    Nokia, Microsoft, Motorola, Sony Ericsson, Samsung, Sanyo etc. aren't stupid. They all know the future is data (streaming TV, music, video, videophones, etc.) and have phones either ready or in development that make current phones look like a joke. Take a look here to get an idea:

    http://www.mobileburn.com/review.jsp?Id=589[/URL]

    http://www.infosync.no/ [URL]

    http://www.mobileburn.com/gallery.jsp?Id=590

    I think as smartphones take off it will be harder/more expensive for carriers to keep them from being unlocked, so we'll see subsidies disappear unless users sign long contracts. Right now the hardware is too expensive for the smartphones to sell without subsidies, but that will change soon.

    Palm is at the mercy of the carriers. Remember they are just small fry compared to Motorola and Nokia. If the carriers say "jump!", Palm has to say "how high?".

    I doubt Palm will ultimately be able to go after anyone here - the link was removed by Mol and I imagine the references to other person hosting the file will also soon disappear. They have also probably now learned they can't use sowtware-flashable unlock schemes from now on.

    I'll drop by and say hi next time I'm visiting your part of Texas.


    P.S. Have you seen the new CLIEs yet? I know you'll be coming back to Sony this year...
    Last edited by The Chupacabra; 01/20/2004 at 05:49 AM.
  18. #38  
    Good luck with that app. approach.
    I rather doubt unlocking or changing code to your phone is illegal. just as voiding the warranty if you do is not illegal.
  19.    #39  
    Originally posted by Mol


    That's more to do with ethics than anything else. Interesting topic, but it doesn't answer my question. Let me rephrase it. The Treo is sold as a Palm-based phone hence it is designed to be customized. If somebody were to write to an app that doesn't modify existing PalmOne code but only adds code on top of the existing OS, could that be illegal?
    Depends on what you mean by "adds code on top of the existing OS". In a sense, HackMaster and EVPlugBase did that for years and were considered ok (well... sort of). A few Japanese developers have written DA programs, language localizers and apps to manipulate fonts, resolution, expansion slots and even screen scaling (CodeDiver). All presumably "acceptable" to the manufactures, even if the modifications might not technically have been "legal" in terms of EULA. Enforcement is up to the manufacturer's discretion, but in most cases, these modifications simply helped sell them more hardware. (In fact, the way CodeDiver transforms the usefulness of the CLIE UX-50 is unreal.) But if say you ran a background app to fool the OS onto thinking it was in an unlock state so you could bypass a carrier's restrictions? Don't know. Probably legal if you really aren't changing code, breaking contracts or stealing anything. But anything that takes away sales or control from the carriers + manufacturers should be expected to attract their close attention.

  20. #40  
    Originally posted by The Chupacabra
    I was also surprised to see the thread here, but for me (and I believe you and PRPRPR $as$ $well$) $the$ $sole$ $interest$ $was$ $the$ $process$ - $not$ $a$ $need$ $for$ $an$ $unlocked$ $phone$. ($In$ $fact$, $I$ $had$ $a$ $CDMA$ $Treo$ $600$ $which$ $has$ $already$ $been$ $returned$.)
    True. Mine was purchased unlocked by its previous owner, so it's not as if I _had_ to find out how they implemented the sim-locking!

    I think a lot of it boils down to the cost of these phones, the fact that Palm is new to the cellphone market (carriers probably don't think of Palm as being a "legitimate" cellphone company), and how easy it will be for people to unlock the phones.
    Palm (or PalmOne now) may not be well known for its phones, but Handspring is slightly more. I know that my carrier, SFR, provides support for the older Treo devices, and you could even purchase a 300 from them, if I remember correctly. Now of course if PalmOne want to market the next Treo under the PalmOne brand and dump the Handspring one...

    I think you already know where the line is drawn. Modifying a keyboard doesn't affect Palm's or the carriers' profits, now, does it?
    Actually, it does: making the keyboard more useable (like with the KeyCapsHack program, or other related tools) will undoubtely hinder the sales of the Handspring add-on keyboard...

    One could argue that writing a keyboard-improvement program could add value to the Treo itself (and as such benefit to PalmOne), so that may be the reason why PalmOne didn't sue KeyCapsHack developers yet!

    Along the same thought line (which I do not profess as being either logical or true), writing an unlock tool will undoubtely add value to the Treo 600 since people who would previously not buy an expensive, low resolution, unconnected PDA (if they couldn't use it with their current carrier) now have the ability to actually use it fully. This means that having the possibility to unlock the Treo would, in fact, increase the sales and make PalmOne happy.

    Just look at how many people here have already (or were willing to, sim-locking problem aside) purchased an Orange Uk Treo, for instance, and they paid the one year plan plus unlocking fees right now, just to be able to get back home and use it there. This solution is undoubtely more expensive than the unlocked GSM sold by Handspring themselves, or than any Treo 600 sold directly by a carrier.

    So I'm pretty sure that if the Treo 600 wasn't subsidized by the carriers, but sold unlocked and widely available, the sales would be better (for PalmOne) and the proffit higher for every carriers since they wouldn't have to pay for the phones to be subsidized.

    By the way, based on what I've seen, given Handspring's clever choice of architecture, I doubt the unlock would have been possible had you not experienced that crash heard 'round the world.
    Wrong. Just read my post (number 306943, sorry, I don't know how to put a direct link) about using PRCExplorer and (optionally) the simulator (and your own device as well) to get all the files from the updater package without waiting for a device crash.

    And doing that with the Orange CarKit firmware updater wouldn't even require getting the updater from an illegal source, by the way...
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