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  1. #21  
    I have unlimited PCS Vision. The only limitation on bandwidth that I am aware of is if you are using your phone as a modem connection with another device. Since the phone has streaming capabilities and is not hooked up to another device as a modem, I believe that I can hog all the bandwidth my little Treo can handle via any transport method/protocol available to me on the Treo device.

    I have no qualms about this bandwidth usage. I am paying for the privelage to use "unlimited" bandwidth. This is a service that I am purchasing.

    BTW, for interested parties, the following is the TOS from America's Sprint PCS website for Unlimited "Vision" services......

    Unlimited PCS Vision plans/options are only available with phones or PCS smart phones where the device is not being used as a modem in connection with other equipment (e.g., computers, PDAs, etc.) through use of connection kits or other phone-to-computer/PDA accessories, or Bluetooth or other wireless technology.
    If you understand, things are just as they are. If you do not understand, things are just as they are.

  2. #22  
    Originally posted by kaffeen
    I have no qualms about this bandwidth usage. I am paying for the privelage to use "unlimited" bandwidth. This is a service that I am purchasing.
    I agree. Streaming audio is one of the features that I didn't think about when I purchased the Treo but now I use on a regular basis. If I am on the road for a long time I tune into Shoutcast. Have not had a single problem with billing. Love it! Can't wait for Realplayer so I can listen to baseball games from my home town team in Puerto Rico while on the road!!!

    cash70
    Me = Nokia 5170/Palm III > Kyocera 6035 > Treo 600 > Treo 650 > Treo 700p > Treo 755p > Treo Pro > Palm Pre

    Wife = Treo 600 > Treo 650 > Treo 755p > Palm Centro > Palm Pixi
  3. #23  
    Originally posted by kaffeen
    I have unlimited PCS Vision. The only limitation on bandwidth that I am aware of is if you are using your phone as a modem connection with another device. Since the phone has streaming capabilities and is not hooked up to another device as a modem, I believe that I can hog all the bandwidth my little Treo can handle via any transport method/protocol available to me on the Treo device.
    In "theory" I agree with you.

    But, let me put it this way.

    Let's say I am a palm developer, and I develop a web server app for the Treo. I now get a 512MB card and serve giant files to the world from my Treo. Entirely possible.

    The "letter of the law" in their AUP doesn't account for that possibility, but courts often interpret the "spirit" of the law.

    In other words, the Treo did NOT come with a web server by default. By creating one, you are using the Treo in a manner which parallels "attaching it to a laptop", by giving it the "functionality of a laptop". The possibility exists that this is STILL an interpreted violation of the AUP.

    Your streaming media is not that different. It didn't come with the Treo (I don't think, correct me if I'm wrong, I have a 300). You are making your Treo have the features and function of a laptop. A technicality? You willing to risk thousands on that technicality?

    This is all speculation, I have as little a clue as any of you. But, I think it a mistake to blanket-discredit the possibility.
    ----------------------------------------
    mk3cn4 uses a Treo 600 with ReqWireless Web Browser (others are useless IMO), Snappermail, Xiino, PalmVNC... and is a big infone fan. Cheaper and magnatudes better than Sprint's 411 ripoff, www.infone.com.
  4. #24  
    Again....if I pay for a service, I expect to get the service I have payed for. In this instance, it is "unlimited" web access and data transfer (upload or download).

    If I wanted to run a web server off my Treo, I could do that since the Sprint PCS TOS does not specifically limit that particular service. You will notice that DSL and Cable companies specifically mention that web server access is not allowed and/or must be payed for with additional fees. They write that into the user contract for a purpose.

    At this time, it really wouldn't be very practical to run a web server off a Treo or other "smart" device, however, if possible then there is no legalise to prevent it.

    If Sprint attempts to rewrite their TOS (and my contract), I will re-evaluate the TOS at that time and modify my usage accordingly (however, that will be after my two year contract expires of course). I am willing to pay more for unlimited access if needed, however, the price must be reasonable for the services. Currently, the price is *very* reasonable (hehe).
    If you understand, things are just as they are. If you do not understand, things are just as they are.

  5. #25  
    Real now says Realplayer 10 will be available for the Treo 600 after Feb. 5. The wait continues....
  6. #26  
    > You folks are playing with fire by using streaming audio. I use bandwith monitors and enforce excessive bandwidth consumption <

    Uh, well, actually, that's why my carrier is Sprint. $15/mo for unmetered, unlimited bandwidth usage. No fire.
  7. #27  
    Originally posted by sabat
    > You folks are playing with fire by using streaming audio. I use bandwith monitors and enforce excessive bandwidth consumption <

    Uh, well, actually, that's why my carrier is Sprint. $15/mo for unmetered, unlimited bandwidth usage. No fire.
    Plenty of fire.

    You are making your Treo act like a computer, not a palm device. Not too far of a stretch from the wording in their AUP. "Streaming Media" is not a normal function of a Palm Device, that's something a "computer" does. The "technicality" that you aren't attaching a device to the Palm because you were able to make the Palm itself do the deed is shakey ground.

    Go ahead and stream. You guys can be the trailblazers. I'll sit back and watch. Good luck with it. Hope you don't get the same result of that guy who had the $2800 bill for doing exactly that same thing. (Do a search here if you don't know what I am talking about).
    ----------------------------------------
    mk3cn4 uses a Treo 600 with ReqWireless Web Browser (others are useless IMO), Snappermail, Xiino, PalmVNC... and is a big infone fan. Cheaper and magnatudes better than Sprint's 411 ripoff, www.infone.com.
  8. #28  
    mk3cn4 wrote:
    You are making your Treo act like a computer, not a palm device. Not too far of a stretch from the wording in their AUP. "Streaming Media" is not a normal function of a Palm Device, that's something a "computer" does. The "technicality" that you aren't attaching a device to the Palm because you were able to make the Palm itself do the deed is shakey ground.


    That's a very poetic reading of the TOS, but rationally there are no two ways about this: either the phone is connected to another computing device or it's not. Just because Sprint sent someone an exhorbitant bill doesn't mean it was accurate or legal -- I'm sure nearly every Sprint user has had to correct a faux invoice at least once.

    I know that when I use PDAnet, I'm opening myself up to potential liability. Even if my data usage is modest I'm still technically violating the TOS. Personally I don't think Sprint cares enough to risk the notoriety of litigating against customers, especially now that number portability is at hand. They're not exactly the RIAA. So I use PDAnet, understanding that I do so at my own risk.

    But when consuming streaming audio directly on my Treo, modestly or not, I remain firmly within the TOS: it's a provision I pay for, not a loophole, not a technicality.
  9. #29  
    Maybe we should be more concerned about THEIR LOOPHOLES.

    I mean, actually if Sprint wanted to they could probably charge all of us huge data fees because there is so much room to play in their TOS.
    Unlimited PCS Vision plans/options are only available with phones or PCS smart phones where the device is not being used as a modem in connection with other equipment (e.g., computers, PDAs, etc.) through use of connection kits or other phone-to-computer/PDA accessories, or Bluetooth or other wireless technology
    They probably could say that the blazer app (being part of the ROM) is part of the smart phone. Everything else on the device is software loaded to the PDA and should not be used to access their 3G network. I mean even the free pTunes download you get with the phone is a version that does not support streaming. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

    I'm no lawyer, but I know that there are certain rules and laws that are not really enforced but still exist so that they can be used to catch extreme violators.

    I mean cops don't stop every jay walker on the street, but if you're running back and forth just for the heck of it causing traffic problems and accidents I'm sure they'd have something to say about it.

    Could be the same with Sprint. They don't intend on keeping us from using PDA apps to download email, chat, ftp or whatever. But they may have written the TOS loosly so that they could charge you if you were abusing their services.

    I would hope that they would at least issue a warning before taking such actions as giving you a $2,500 cell phone bill, but I don't suppose they are legally obligated to do so.

    I personally will be emailing them and getting some sort of confirmation that I can use streaming audio/video before doing so. Mostly in hopes that I'll get a less knowledgable person at Sprint to say "yes" without ever really looking into it. Then I'll have something to fall back on if they do decide to give me a hugge bill. (Of course, even if they say "no" I'm still going to have to give it a try. )

    --TechDude
  10. #30  
    Unlimited PCS Vision plans/options are only available with phones or PCS smart phones where the device is not being used as a modem in connection with other equipment (e.g., computers, PDAs, etc.) through use of connection kits or other phone-to-computer/PDA accessories, or Bluetooth or other wireless technology

    Which is to say that if you connect your Treo to your Zire 71 or your iBook, you're violating the TOS, since they constitute "other equipment."

    Until the terms are rewritten, there are no loopholes on either end of the bargain. To reiterate: either your Treo is connected to another device or it's not. The letter of the TOS is too clear cut to leave slack for whimsical interpretations of its "spirit."
  11. #31  
    Umm...sorry to burst the bubble here guys, but no where does it say that Real Player for Palmos will abe to stream real audio format!! In fact, this isn't possible on other PalmOS devices and I highly doubt it will be implemented for the Treo600 either! All the information indicates is that you will be able to play audio files from Real music store which will have to be downloaded and transfered to the device... AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK, $only$ $shoutcast$ $can$ $stream$ $right$ $now$...
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



    Please don't PM me about my avatar. For more info go here.

    Restore your Pre to factory settings using webos doctor and follow these instructions
  12. #32  

    I know that when I use PDAnet, I'm opening myself up to potential liability. Even if my data usage is modest I'm still technically violating the TOS. Personally I don't think Sprint cares enough to risk the notoriety of litigating against customers, especially now that number portability is at hand.
    I bet you're right, I bet Sprint doesn't care about PDANnet because you're smart enough to not NAIL the bandwidth with it. Fire up Kazaa and see what happens...

    This streaming traffic is going to raisie a lot of eyebrows.

    Ok, let's say you get a bill. You're arguement: "I didn't attach it to a computer". Sprint's arguement: "We saw you using streaming media, and murdered the bandwidth, we don't believe you. Here's your $3000 bill".

    You all can do what you want. Doesn't matter to me. I'm not risking it, and my advice to others remains the same.
    ----------------------------------------
    mk3cn4 uses a Treo 600 with ReqWireless Web Browser (others are useless IMO), Snappermail, Xiino, PalmVNC... and is a big infone fan. Cheaper and magnatudes better than Sprint's 411 ripoff, www.infone.com.
  13. #33  
    Ok, let's say you get a bill. You're arguement: "I didn't attach it to a computer". Sprint's arguement: "We saw you using streaming media, and murdered the bandwidth, we don't believe you. Here's your $3000 bill".

    First, the Treo itself is capable of handling streaming media, so the argument that it must be connected to another device clearly does not follow. Second, if Sprint or anyone can point to an explicit bandwidth allotment in the TOS, then there would be a case for murdering that allotment. Third, they can send me whatever bill they want, but this is still America, and they would have the burden of proof in a court of law that I have violated the TOS by streaming, which is not the case.

    Yes, even large corporations have to obey the law sometimes.
  14. #34  
    I emailed Sprint about this and here's how it went.

    ==============================================
    Customer Name: **************
    Sprint PCS Phone Number: **********
    Account Number: **********
    Form: Ask A Question-Manage
    Topic: Pricing
    ==============================================
    Question: I have a Treo 600 with unlimited PCS Vision and I am concerned about my bandwidth usage.

    I have heard from several forums such as www.treocentral.com that Sprint may send you a large bill ($2500+) if you use too much bandwidth from your phone. I know that your TOS says it's ok as long as you're not using it as a modem for your computer, but I've heard of one person getting a $2500 bill because he was listening to pTunes streaming audio.

    I was intested in listening to the pTunes streaming audio myself until I read this. Now I'm concerned about not only doing that but other things I already do.

    I frequently download virus definition files from symantec that are
    6-7MB and I also frequently send large photos (1MB+) from my digital camera to family and friends. Add that together and I can see how I might be using just as much bandwidth as the guy listening to shoutcast streaming audio through pTunes.

    I've also heard that you may incur additional charges for SMS messages on an unlimted PCS vision plan.

    Is any of this true? Can I listen to streaming audion on my Treo, or will I get a huge bill from using that much bandwidth?

    Sincerely,
    **************
    ==============================================

    Sprint's reply:

    ==============================================

    This is in response to your inquiry regarding the PCS Vision charges.

    You have the PCS Vision Picture Pack added to your service plan. This plan provides you with Unlimited Internet access. It does not matter how much you use the Internet on your phone, you will not be charged anything for this. The features of this service are mentioned below.

    1. Unlimited PCS Vision access;
    2. Unlimited Web (news, weather, sports, entertainment, plus many more);
    3. Unlimited Messaging (including text messages and email);
    4. Unlimited Picture Mail - take, upload and send an unlimited number of pictures;
    5. Up to a $5.00 credit per month towards the download of premium services (ringers, games, screen savers and other services).

    We have recently launched the SMS text messaging service which allows you to send and receive text messages on your phone. You will not be charged anything extra for using this service as you have the PCS Vision Picture Pack.

    Thank you for contacting Sprint.

    Luke L.
    eCare

    ==============================================

    Well, that says it all for me. Regardless of wether or not they send me a large bill I'm going to stream whatever I want to my phone. I've got "Luke L." here to fall back on if they decide to pull something.

    --TechDude
  15. #35  
    Beautiful!

    Now, for all the naysayers, I suppose we are going to hear how Luke L. intercepted that message by hacking into the Sprint intranet and deviously sent a fake email to TechDude which Luke L. knowingly surmised would be posted on TreoCentral and further propagate the myth that unlimited vision services *really is* unlimited vision services thereby causing outrageous bills to be sent to unsuspecting persons which will then cause complete havoc by overloading the Sprint help network with complaints/inquiries about their bill thereby overloading the entire Sprint network to the point of collapse. Doom, I say. Doom.

    And all because a few people wanted to stream audio via their Treo.

    Those evil-doers.
    If you understand, things are just as they are. If you do not understand, things are just as they are.

  16. #36  
    (Original Message)

    1. Unlimited PCS Vision access;
    2. Unlimited Web (news, weather, sports, entertainment, plus many more);
    3. Unlimited Messaging (including text messages and email);
    4. Unlimited Picture Mail - take, upload and send an unlimited number of pictures;
    5. Up to a $5.00 credit per month towards the download of premium services (ringers, games, screen savers and other services).

    We have recently launched the SMS text messaging service which allows you to send and receive text messages on your phone. You will not be charged anything extra for using this service as you have the PCS Vision Picture Pack.

    Thank you for contacting Sprint.

    Luke L.
    eCare

    ==============================================

    Well, that says it all for me. Regardless of wether or not they send me a large bill I'm going to stream whatever I want to my phone. I've got "Luke L." here to fall back on if they decide to pull something.

    --TechDude
    This doesn't sound like permission to me.

    They say unlimited web, unlimited email, unlimited messaging, unlimited pictures, all under a heading of unlimited "vision", and say nothing about Streaming Media from the Internet, and you consider this a green light? Typical pre-canned Sprint answer, just like the phone scripts I've heard. Their "vision" is what they call their email/web stuff.

    Get them to specifically say streaming media is OK if you want to protect yourself (and convince me).

    Good luck my friend. I'm not bashing you, I just don't want you all to rationalize yourselves into a $3000 mistake. I am in the networking business, I know how these things work. I've been on the "billing" side of an ISP hitting a customer with a violation of AUP penalty. This issue just SMACKS of AUP abuse penalties.
    ----------------------------------------
    mk3cn4 uses a Treo 600 with ReqWireless Web Browser (others are useless IMO), Snappermail, Xiino, PalmVNC... and is a big infone fan. Cheaper and magnatudes better than Sprint's 411 ripoff, www.infone.com.
  17. #37  
    Once again, I'm no lawyer. But I asked specifically about streaming audio and someone representing Sprint told me "... it does not matter how much you use the internet on your phone, you will not be charged anything for this."

    I'm pretty sure that gives me at least a leg to stand on in any court room and I don't think Sprint is foolish enough to let it go that far when THEY told me I wouldn't be charged for it.

    Sure they may go send me a large bill, but with documentation like this, I'm sure they'd drop the charges and consider it a warning if I disputed it.

    Right now I have no plans for using pTunes because I want the real audio content. Whenever it becomes available I'm willing to risk it. (Besides, if it is a problem, surely by that point there will be several postings here from people with huge bills from pTunes streaming.)

    --TechDude
  18. #38  
    Originally posted by TechDude
    (Besides, if it is a problem, surely by that point there will be several postings here from people with huge bills from pTunes streaming.)

    --TechDude
    Ditto.

    I'll wait as well. If nobody else is getting the high bills, I'm right with you.

    I just know how Sprint works. They are no different than any of the other companies that have gotten too big for their own britches. A tech somewhere sends someone a form letter that hints that they can do whatever they want with the bandwidth, and then BANGO, another department 1/2 way around the world hits the customer with a bill. Once that bill is in your name, you are presumed guilty until proven innocent (in their eyes), because someone somewhere at Sprint saw your device hoarding streaming media (something a Treo shouldn't be able to do as far as they know) while sniffing for a traffic hog.

    Many times I call Sprint support and get 2 totally different answers to the identical simple question. I just don't trust anything unless it's nailed clearly, generally in writing. Does "unlimited internet usage" refer to things that the Treo can only natively do?

    I can just see it now, you call Sprint with this email as evidence, and they say "well, you made your phone act just like a computer, we didn't permit that, our form letters don't take that into consideration, and your phone didn't come from us with that ability. Sorry, now will that be cash or check?"
    ----------------------------------------
    mk3cn4 uses a Treo 600 with ReqWireless Web Browser (others are useless IMO), Snappermail, Xiino, PalmVNC... and is a big infone fan. Cheaper and magnatudes better than Sprint's 411 ripoff, www.infone.com.
  19. #39  
    I think my reply would be, "Ask your supervisor which one will be easier for you to give back after my attorney contacts you?"

    And if it takes longer than a month to get it back you can bet I'll expect interest on that. Thank you.



    P.S.
    There was a case number on that email, so it is documented somewhere that I was told this.

    --TechDude
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    #40  
    I think someone is trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. I can't get my Treo to stream anything higher than 24 kbps consistently, so at that rate, it would use only 10 MB after an hour. Now, if you did this 8 hours a day every workday, then it might become a problem, but the Treo's battery life is gonna limit usage anyway. Also consider that most people would prefer to keep their phones available to take phone calls. So I figure even the worst "offenders" would stream maybe 300 MB at the most, which is not that big a deal. I'm sure Sprint knows that their network is not good enough to allow the quality of streaming that would really congest their network, so my guess is that they couldn't care less.
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