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  1. #41  
    > ...I will agree with you (and Seldom, for that matter) that HS
    > could have handled this rollout better...

    Crap crap crap!

    I had a very thorough response with external links completely composed, clicked on "Preview", and the damn login screen reappeared - of course, completely deleting the entire response I had irrevocably.

    ****.

    Okay, that's it - forget it - just wanted to say that I do NOT agree with zip-etc about Handspring's word games. A handful of geeks on an obscure message board really is NOT important in the grand scheme of things and Handspring has to think of that grand scheme.

    So far they've done a pretty good job of hiding the fact that they are in horrendous financial condition, literally playing a "Buy 3000, ship, pause to get orders, buy 3000, ship...etc" game.

    ====

    In other news, palmOne may not sell the TREO line in some Northern European countries due to trademark problems:

    -- http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/4356.html

    If they DO decide to NOT sell the TREO there, this is a STRONG clue to those of us interested in the financial side on the extent of sales they would have had anyway AND a possible clue to the longevity - or lack thereof - of the TREO line.

    ----

    3000 seems to be a good estimate of a minimal production run based on a number of things, e.g. the Handspring guy saying "Sprint's getting a shipment of 2400" at that Mission Possible event, etc. If the number isn't correct, then plug in the correct number!
  2. #42  
    Originally posted by tommygreen


    First off, I'm not a treo-hugger. Looking forward to receiving mine (probably next week), but not a hugger. Yes, I have owned VisorPhone (ACK!), 180, and currently a 270, but that doesn't mean I "love" HS. Just that I've found their products, although not perfect, suitable to my needs.

    My lack of a 600 in my itchy hands does me no harm, however. HS "surely knew they were harming" me... I don't feel slighted at all, much less harmed. I will agree with you (and Seldom, for that matter) that HS could have handled this rollout better. But like many have stated on this forum (mostly in response to you), many companies have botched introduction of high-tech goodies. For the most part, the only ones "harmed" by this are early adopters, of which I am one. But the only way we are harmed is if we allow ourselves to feel that way. I don't. It's just a phone.

    As you stated, just my opinion. And just my rational way of looking at it.
    I for one don't think HS "botched" anything. Botch connotes the notion that they did something they didn't intend to do.

    My sense is that they knew EXACTLY what they were doing. Look at their strategy - it''s been published in national magazines.

    They purposely created buzz. Hawkins showing up with the phone one day, getting it into the hands of celebrities (like Stern) who could boost the product, the extended email campaign targeting early adopters - their own admissions that buzz was what they were trying to do.

    It is unreasonable to believe that they were surprised by the T-Mo response to the 600. They knew full well that T-Mo was not a fan of theirs anymore. In my view, they purposely told people to expect T-Mo support expecting them to believe it would be comparable to past levels when they knew that wouldn't happen.

    That is what would produce the buzz. Imagine what would have happened if they told people the truth:

    "Due to the history of manufacturing defects, excessive returns and high costs of support, T-Mobile, the GSM carrier with the most Treo customers, will no longer be one of our leading carrier partners. The T600 will launch in October, but T-Mobile will not be selling the T 600 during the product introduction, and we will not be selling T-Mo units and plans. Instead, our largest installed base of customers will have to buy phones from competing carriers or via a limited HS/carrier promotion and transfer their SIM chips accordingly. Those T-Mo customers who wish to sign additonal T-Mo contracts and use that contract to obtain discounts on Treo 600's will NOT be able to do so. We hope that at some point T-Mobile will return to their status as a full fledged carrier partner, but there is no assurance they will".

    If they said that, their buzz would turn into a fizz. Which is probably why they didn't.........

    My view is that what I wrote above is most likely closest to the truth. It stand in stark contrast to the constant stream of info that actually came out of HS. The Mission Possible events always lead with T-Mo as first out of the box followed by Cingular.

    I refuse to believe it's an accident that the info happened to be 180 degrees off base. How does it happen that way with nary a PEEP out of the company explaining why? Their largest audience - the TMo GSM base was calling and calling and calling. And they always got strung along.

    So, it seems to me that the single most likely explanation to all this is that nothing was botched and everything went according to plan.

    The shame of it is, the plan was corrupt from the start.

    The "just a phone" lament is really just a rationalization in my opinion.

    Just a phone is true - as to 95% of the rest of the world. But to early adopters like you and me and most of the people who frequentthese threads, it's not. If it were, we'd read an artcile in the paper or magazine about the product, buy it and use it. Period.

    HS knew and knows that early adopters take this stuff seriously - it's their hobby, their interest - whatever. A stamp is just a piece of paper with some glue on it, but people have been collecting them for ages. The rest of us just lick them and use them.

    So I stick to my guns on the subjec that HS knew what they were doing, purposely did it, and did so knowing that it would be abusive to the group that they themselves identified as the single most important group to target in launching the product that was the companie's last hope.
  3. #43  
    Though I agree with most of what you've typed, z-etc, I think you're forgetting that this is a dynamic world with corporate decisions made all the time, not just sometime in the past.

    For example, it could easily have been that T-Mobile was indeed planning to actually buy some TREO 600s but some guy internal to T-Mobile had said "Make sure the damn things work FIRST this time!" and when they didn't, some corporate BigWig said "No! Not again!" and axed the deal (afterall, the TREO is important for palmOne, not for T-Mobile). At THAT point, Handspring began the word games - and THAT point could easily have been fairly recently.

    (as a clue when THAT point was reached we could use the wording changes on Handspring's web site).

    Maybe Handspring knew all along about T-Mobile's hesitation and DID use purposefully misleading words about the entire relationship.

    Or maybe T-Mobile just recently said "We tested it enough, we don't want it, no thanks" and Handspring made a deal with them to try to save face.

    If Handspring knew from Day One then there might be a few investors who might want to contact a class-action lawyer or two.

    But if it JUST got finalized that T-Mobile said "No way, Jose" - well, that's just plain dumb luck.

    (and excellent manuvering on palmOne's part to "retain" the use of T-Mobile as a "carrier partner!" - ha ha ha!)
  4. #44  
    Originally posted by SeldomVisitor
    Though I agree with most of what you've typed, z-etc, I think you're forgetting that this is a dynamic world with corporate decisions made all the time, not just sometime in the past.

    For example, it could easily have been that T-Mobile was indeed planning to actually buy some TREO 600s but some guy internal to T-Mobile had said "Make sure the damn things work FIRST this time!" and when they didn't, some corporate BigWig said "No! Not again!" and axed the deal (afterall, the TREO is important for palmOne, not for T-Mobile). At THAT point, Handspring began the word games - and THAT point could easily have been fairly recently.

    (as a clue when THAT point was reached we could use the wording changes on Handspring's web site).

    Maybe Handspring knew all along about T-Mobile's hesitation and DID use purposefully misleading words about the entire relationship.

    Or maybe T-Mobile just recently said "We tested it enough, we don't want it, no thanks" and Handspring made a deal with them to try to save face.

    If Handspring knew from Day One then there might be a few investors who might want to contact a class-action lawyer or two.

    But if it JUST got finalized that T-Mobile said "No way, Jose" - well, that's just plain dumb luck.

    (and excellent manuvering on palmOne's part to "retain" the use of T-Mobile as a "carrier partner!" - ha ha ha!)
    Perhaps what you write is true - but one thing is common to both of our suppositions.

    And that is that there was a substantial reduction in the HS/TM0 relationship which, if disclosed to the crowd being buzzed, would have seriously degraded the buzz HS needed to a fizzle.

    Either way you slice, it, TMo'ers were seriously abused.
  5. #45  
    Originally posted by zipmitz
    Perhaps what you write is true - but one thing is common to both of our suppositions.

    And that is that there was a substantial reduction in the HS/TM0 relationship which, if disclosed to the crowd being buzzed, would have seriously degraded the buzz HS needed to a fizzle.
    Is that really true? Does the average early adopter who helps to create this buzz really care whether or not they can buy a T-Mobile Treo 600 at a T-Mobile store or have to buy it through the Handspring site? It seems to me that the majority of frustration here is because hinted at / promised release dates weren't met and these early adopters are still waiting for the "official" release of a T-Mobile Treo 600.

    I think that the only that would have changed if they were up front about any difference in their T-Mobile relationship would be with investors, not early adopters.

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  6. #46  
    > ...one thing is common to both of our suppositions.
    >
    > And that is that there was a substantial reduction in the
    > HS/TM0 relationship which, if disclosed to the crowd being
    > buzzed, would have seriously degraded the buzz HS needed to
    > a fizzle...

    It appears that there has indeed been a SUBSTANTIAL reduction in that relationship but one MUST remember that we're basing all this speculation off only a couple datapoints - the leadoff post in this thread and the wording changes on Handspring's web site.

    As you have noted - Handspring itself is mum on the subject.

    > ...I think that the only that would have changed if they were up
    > front about any difference in their T-Mobile relationship would
    > be with investors, not early adopters.

    Yup - I asked essentially that question elsewhere - does it MATTER that T-Mobile isn't the one actually carrying the TREO 600 to end-customers?

    But it does indeed for sure matter to "investors" - not only for the direct effect of ZERO sales to T-Mobile, but potentially for an entire paradigm-shift by OTHER carriers as they catch onto what T-Mobile is (might be) doing. From the carrier POV this makes so much financial sense for low-volume high-cost devices that I'd be surprised if they don't all jump on the wagon (*). And that would be a financial killer for palmOne (or at least for the TREO line).

    ====

    (*) In fact, this makes so much financial sense from a carrier POV that I'm surprised it isn't ALREADY SOP for all carriers and expensive niche devices.
    Last edited by SeldomVisitor; 11/27/2003 at 09:21 AM.
  7. #47  
    Originally posted by SeldomVisitor
    > ...one thing is common to both of our suppositions.
    >
    > And that is that there was a substantial reduction in the
    > HS/TM0 relationship which, if disclosed to the crowd being
    > buzzed, would have seriously degraded the buzz HS needed to
    > a fizzle...

    It appears that there has indeed been a SUBSTANTIAL reduction in that relationship but one MUST remember that we're basing all this speculation off only a couple datapoints - the leadoff post in this thread and the wording changes on Handspring's web site.

    As you have noted - Handspring itself is mum on the subject.

    > ...I think that the only that would have changed if they were up
    > front about any difference in their T-Mobile relationship would
    > be with investors, not early adopters.

    Yup - I asked essentially that question elsewhere - does it MATTER that T-Mobile isn't the one actually carrying the TREO 600 to end-customers?

    But it does indeed for sure matter to "investors" - not only for the direct effect of ZERO sales to T-Mobile, but potentially for an entire paradigm-shift by OTHER carriers as they catch onto what T-Mobile is (might be) doing. From the carrier POV this makes so much financial sense for low-volume high-cost devices that I'd be surprised if they don't all jump on the wagon (*). And that would be a financial killer for palmOne (or at least for the TREO line).

    ====

    (*) In fact, this makes so much financial sense from a carrier POV that I'm surprised it isn't ALREADY SOP for all carriers and expensive niche devices.

    Maybe so... but I would suggest to you that the ULTIMATE datapoint that we should NOT overlook is the reality that T-Mo WAS the number one partner with Treo with it's earlier rollouts and CLEARLY stepped back with the 600 FROM THE JUMP.

    Sure, Sprint came in with the 300 and pushed it like gangbusters. But all the 300 is, is a CDMA 270, which T-Mo had been supporting with thousands of customers for MONTHS.

    T-Mo (Voicestream) was numero uno with the visorphone, the 180 and the 270. They were the big kahuna on the carrier side and they gladly gave that up with the 600.

    THAT is something that people didn't really pay close attention to, and I submit that the reason they didn't is because HS kept touting them as the LEAD GSM carrier.

    No one who is honest in these threads ever DREAMED that T-Mo wouldn't be the first GSM carrier that was partnering with HS on the 600. You would have been laughed off the stage in these parts if you even DARED suggest they'd be LAST.

    The thing to keep in mind here is the notion that it is hard to believe that all this was a surprise to HS. Yet, I know from my own convos with HS people that they touted T-Mo from the jump.

    Could it have been an "on the fly" paradigm shift in the midst of the rollout? Anything is possible. But my grey hair tells me that the more likely scenario is that the problems with T-Mo didn't just jump out of the bushes like a mugger in the dark of night. I don't believe that any of this comes as surprise and I highly doubt that a company that bet the farm on a single product would EVER get caught by surprise by it's biggest partner.

    So while we don't know this or that to a legal certainty, we know the laws of human nature and expected behaviors.

    On that basis, I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that HS didn't conciously and maliciously mislead T-Mo customers to protect their precious buzz.

    And YES it DOES matter to T-Mo customers and NOT just to investors.

    I can speak as a T-Mo guy of longstanding.

    I didn't order a Cingular unit. I could have, I know.

    But I was still believing HS and was still mindful of the important relationship and huge installed base of T-Mo Treo customers.

    So never in my WILDEST dreams did I ever expect that things would play out this way and so I waited for the inevitable T-Mo launch. A launch that never came and may never come.

    I was fortunate. I drove around for several hours with a list of Cingular store addresses and paid $200 more for the phone than Cingular guys. Why? Because if you missed the order date on day 1, you went into the 2-3 week loop from hell.

    And truth be told, MOST early adopters who are GSM'ers STILL don';t have their Treos.

    So yes - they were hurt.
  8. #48  
    Originally posted by RayUSA
    Treo 600 on T-Mobile? I hope it's soon! We've been waiting for this since summer!! Furthermore, I hope it's an unlocked Treo 600.

    Does anyone know if T-Mobile will unlock their phones if you request it and if they charge extra for that?
    "Their" phones? How did it get to be theirs and how did it get locked to them in the first place. The premise of this thread is that T-Mobile does not plan to sell the 600. Imagine buying a locked phone from HS and then having to pay T-Mobile a fee to get it unlocked.

    I cannot imagine that there are any 600 prospects left for T-Mobile to sell to. There may be a few people with long term contracts with T-Mobile who would like a 600. T-Mobile has already given those people consideration for that contract. I can understand that they would just as soon that small number of people deal with HS.

    Given that HS has given preference to every other channel and carrier over T-Mobile and has siphoned off to those other carriers every T-Mobile customer that it can, I can Imagine that T-Mobile wishes that they had never heard of HS or PalmOne.

    There is no price at which I will buy a locked phone from anyone but the carrier and few of those. Not being locked to a phone, a number, or a carrier is one of the reasons that I prefer GSM.

    It seems clear that HS does not plan to sell any unlocked phones until the have sold every locked phone they can. This is more bad news for those of us who want only an unlocked GSM phone.
    Last edited by whmurray; 11/29/2003 at 08:27 PM.
  9. #49  
    I agree with the last poster. I have been waiting patiently (well, maybe not so patiently) for the unlocked 600. Months ago we were led to believe that Handspring was going to make available the unlocked version on their website-around the end of October! Well, here it is the beginning of December and no unlocked Treo-anywhere. (unless you want to pay 899 euros at Treostore). I can't even buy phone at a Cingular store, as I am told those are all locked. Are we supposed to wait until every carrier has had their 3 weeks? What a way to treat us early adopters WHO ARE WILLING TO PAY MORE FOR AN UNLOCKED PHONE! I am disgusted, & will have to seriously consider what "convergence device" to purchase now.
  10. #50  
    Originally posted by Andrew-NYC
    Well, here it is the beginning of December and no unlocked Treo-anywhere.
    What time zone are you in?

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  11. #51  
    Originally posted by Andrew-NYC
    I can't even buy phone at a Cingular store, as I am told those are all locked.
    Where were you told these were locked? From all the info here on the forums (and the many T-Mobile users who just got sick of waiting and went ahead and bought the Cingular one) they are quite the opposite. You can use the Cingular Treo with any SIM... the only branding is the startup screen and some other minor things that don't really matter much. And if they DO bother you that much, there's a thread about changing the startup screens and many other settings. I'm just going to sit back and hope I don't regret not getting the Cingular one already and using it on my T-Mo service....
  12. #52  
    Every Cingular employee I've spoken with has told me that Treos bought from Handspring are unlocked, but those purchased at the Cingular stores are locked! If this is not true, I'd like to know. Anyone bought a Treo 600 at a Cingular store + successfully put a T-Mo sim in & used both voice & GPRS?
  13. #53  
    I'm a Treo 180 user. I've been pretty happy with the product, as I have with my previous Handspring purchases.

    I've placed two calls to T-Mobile this evening trying to get info on when they will be carrying the Treo 600. The first woman I spoke to was admittedly having a bad night. She got increasingly frustrated with me when I pressed her for information on the Treo 600. She asked her supervisor about it and was told that T-Mobile may not be able to get the phone.

    When I asked her to explain, she got more frustrated. I informed her that Sprint, Cingular and even AT&T carries the Treo 600 so it's not a question of if it's available to T-Mo, it's will T-Mo carry it.

    She didn't know anything about it.

    My second call produced the same results and now I'm on hold for a supervisor. As I write this, I've been on hold for almost an hour this time around, and the outcome will determine whether I will remain a T-Mobile customer and if I will be choosing an alternative to the Treo 600.

    If I didn't lock in the good rate I have ($40 for 1000 anytime mins/unlimited wknds and nights) when T-Mo first came out to CA, I'd already be gone from T-Mo.

    I have been a HS customer from the Visor Deluxe and was very happy to recommend them to any who asked about my device. I was impressed with the ingenuity and simplicity of the device, as well as the group of visionaries that left Palm to pursue it. I even encouraged a former employer to buy Handspring Visor Platinums when they were looking for a wireless PDA solution.

    If HS did treat their T-Mo customers in the rotten way described in previous posts, I will be buying a competitive product and my zeal for HS will now be against them. What a shame that would be. Companies who treat their customers that way can't expect to retain them.

    Rick in San Diego
  14. #54  
    I too had called T-Mo about the 600 on Nov. 24th, and the rep I spoke with was horribly misinformed. She said I could order it through handspring.com (NOW apparently). I replied that that was not the case and HS did not have them available for T-Mo yet. I asked if she had any idea when that date would be. She still insisted that I could already buy it from their site, and then after I kept stating that the site didn't have it yet, she said to try the stores. Obviously she had no idea whatsoever what she was talking about.

    Even after all this crap I still prefer their service over others due to their data pricing (cingular and AT&T are just outrageous). And I won't switch to Sprint because the coverage sucks around here and I'd rather have the battery life of the GSM version and the ability to (possibly) switch carriers/travel overseas.
  15. #55  
    Originally posted by rickdeet

    If I didn't lock in the good rate I have ($40 for 1000 anytime mins/unlimited wknds and nights) when T-Mo first came out to CA, I'd already be gone from T-Mo.


    Rick in San Diego
    Rick, I assume that you are still holding.

    You are one of a small group of T-Mobile customers who care and you do not care as much as you think you.

    It is true that if T-Mobile offered the 600 and if they offered a discount, you might pay a little less for the phone. However, they would offer that discount to customers entering into a long term contract. The terms of that contract are not likely to be as good as the one you now have. [You do not mention data in your rate; it may not be as good as you think.]

    To preserve your contract, you would want to buy the phone from HS, particularly if HS offered you the kind of loyalty discount that they offered to those 180 and 270 customers. While it now seems unlikely that they will do so, HS still might make such an offer for an unlocked 600.

    With your rate, it might take you less than a year to recoup the value of any discount. Of course, you cannot calculate that value because there are no unlocked 600s for sale. (There are prices quoted around $750- but even at that price there is no availability.)

    You are in the same hard position as the few other remaining T-Mobile 600 customers. I suggest that while you are waiting you talk to AT&T and Cingular, tell them about your rate with T-Mobile and see what you can negotiate.
  16. #56  
    Would it be fair to say that not since New Coke has any product announcement produced so much loyal customer anger and frustration as this one? Yes, I think that would be fair.

    The most frustrating thing of all is that there is no evidence to suggest that HS has even noticed, much less that they give damn.
  17. #57  
    Originally posted by whmurray
    Would it be fair to say that not since New Coke has any product announcement produced so much loyal customer anger and frustration as this one? Yes, I think that would be fair.

    The most frustrating thing of all is that there is no evidence to suggest that HS has even noticed, much less that they give damn.
    whmurray, I couldn't agree with you more. Checkout what I said about comparing this situation to "Cokes" failure back in the 80's.

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...e&pagenumber=2

    Its the 4th post down. And wmurray, check your private messages.
  18. #58  
    Originally posted by rickdeet
    I'm a Treo 180 user. I've been pretty happy with the product, as I have with my previous Handspring purchases.

    I've placed two calls to T-Mobile this evening trying to get info on when they will be carrying the Treo 600. The first woman I spoke to was admittedly having a bad night. She got increasingly frustrated with me when I pressed her for information on the Treo 600. She asked her supervisor about it and was told that T-Mobile may not be able to get the phone.

    When I asked her to explain, she got more frustrated. I informed her that Sprint, Cingular and even AT&T carries the Treo 600 so it's not a question of if it's available to T-Mo, it's will T-Mo carry it.

    She didn't know anything about it.

    My second call produced the same results and now I'm on hold for a supervisor. As I write this, I've been on hold for almost an hour this time around, and the outcome will determine whether I will remain a T-Mobile customer and if I will be choosing an alternative to the Treo 600.

    If I didn't lock in the good rate I have ($40 for 1000 anytime mins/unlimited wknds and nights) when T-Mo first came out to CA, I'd already be gone from T-Mo.

    I have been a HS customer from the Visor Deluxe and was very happy to recommend them to any who asked about my device. I was impressed with the ingenuity and simplicity of the device, as well as the group of visionaries that left Palm to pursue it. I even encouraged a former employer to buy Handspring Visor Platinums when they were looking for a wireless PDA solution.

    If HS did treat their T-Mo customers in the rotten way described in previous posts, I will be buying a competitive product and my zeal for HS will now be against them. What a shame that would be. Companies who treat their customers that way can't expect to retain them.

    Rick in San Diego
    Your last paragraph says it all. But you have to look at things from the OPPOSITE direction....

    T-Mo was HS's most important customer in rolling out ALL of it's prior wireless devices. And it has all the scars to show how dangerous it is to be a primary partner with HS. The excessive returns, the high rate of customer support must have cost T-Mo a BUNDLE.

    Thrice burned, who could blame T-Mo for going it slow? No one has a more vested interest in the Treo 600 than HS. They knew their largest installed base of prior users and likely market were T-Mo guys.

    And THEY dropped the ball with T-Mo.
  19. #59  
    Originally posted by zipmitz




    And THEY dropped the ball with T-Mo.
    Dropped it, not. They stole it.

    As best I can tell from TC, the 600/GSM is a phantom. HS takes orders for AT&T and Cingular (but not for T-Mobile); they do not deliver.

    It is a huge con game.
  20. #60  
    Handspring (palmone) on their customer service line says T-Mobile within the next few weeks. But again, that has been the story all along.
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