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  1. #61  
    Originally posted by zipmitz

    The only explanaton I can fathom is that Sprint is more committed to its data network than the GSM carriers. It's a different standard that they've invested in disproportionately to other carriers. And that's prolly why they've been such a Treo booster. So it prolly put serious money up front first and that's why there is such an anomaly here.

    All you have to do is look at how the 180/270/300 saga rolled out. CDMA went LAST and LATE.
    Interesting. I think the difference between us turns on whether you believe that there is really a worldwide shortage of Treo 600s or whether you believe that there is only a shortage of GSM phones in the US.

    We have had reports this weekend from the UK that there is no shortage of GSM phones in Europe. We have reports of availability, and indeed promotions and discounts, for Sprint CDMA. I see no convincing evidence of a general shortage. I see a preference for one carrier over others. I see a preference for one channel over another.

    As to commitment, I have no idea of how much capital it takes to add data to CDMA. However, it takes relatively little to add GPRS to a GSM network. In any case, it is mostly done. The issue is revenue. Once a carrier has the coverage, the limiting factor to revenue is handsets and customers.

    As a result of this tragedy, T-Mobile is losing data customers to Sprint. That is the central fact of this thread. Next week they are going to lose more. (Just in case you are right, I hope they lose all those with a data requirement and no GSM requirement.)
  2. #62  
    Originally posted by zipmitz


    I really think it's terribly unfair to blame the carriers. It's hard to see how ALL of the GSM carriers fouled up. Every last one of them.

    No one has more of an investment in the product rollout than HS. And THEY bear responsibility in my book. Near Total.

    What's more likely to be true? A company on the balls of its **** financially, living hand to mouth, paying for new inventory with the sales it just completed being responsible for a slow roll out, or three HUGE companies all sharing the same technical standards fouling up together?

    demand can often out strip supply at the time of a new models introduction regardless of the product.


    i will grant you that limited resources can equate to limited product release, but i rather doubt thats the case here. i think its more a case of hs and its number one customer/develoment partner ,Sprint, having the right to purchase and market the 600 first and to whatever number of units it demands. if hs and sprint have their channels full with orders, which has indeed been the case, i seriously doubt tm, att and others are going to have much say as to when and how many 600's will arrive.

    i see best buy, compusa and others who offer the phone are doing it exclusively through sprint, and if the demand continues to be strong at sprint outlets the wait may be extended again and again.


    blame hs and its finances if you want, but as i said earlier the phone is available at most Sprint outlets and that is telling to me as to what's going on.

    Right now the treo 600 = sprint, and no one should seem suprised at this.
  3. #63  
    Originally posted by zipmitz


    I really think it's terribly unfair to blame the carriers. It's hard to see how ALL of the GSM carriers fouled up. Every last one of them.

    No one has more of an investment in the product rollout than HS. And THEY bear responsibility in my book. Near Total.

    What's more likely to be true? A company on the balls of its **** financially, living hand to mouth, paying for new inventory with the sales it just completed being responsible for a slow roll out, or three HUGE companies all sharing the same technical standards fouling up together?
    Well, T-Mobile seems to be in a class by itself. My understanding is that, while they will not deliver, HS will take your order for a GSM phone, if and only if you live in a Cingular or AT&T market and are willing to sign a contract with either of them.

    I recall that T-Mobile made 270 users wait for GPRS (because data over dial connection produced more revenue?) long after European and Asian customers were already using it on the T-Mobile network. They pretended that if you used any GPRS software that you got from anyone else, it would damage your phone. When their version of the software came out, the only difference was that the Blazer homepage was locked to a T-Mobile page.

    Surely there is enough mendacity in this situation for some of it to stick to T-Mobile. They have used up all of my loyalty.

    If you do not need GSM, jump to Sprint.
  4. #64  
    Maybe Handspring is or isnít going broke. Maybe they can or canít pay their suppliers. Maybe Sprint is or isnít holding HS hostage. All of this is conspiracy theory speculation. And Iím not much into conspiracy theories and such!

    What I do believe in is Occamís razor! The simplest explanation, in the absence of additional information, is usually the correct one. As the doctors say, ďWhen you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras!Ē

    So letís look at what we actually KNOW about Handspringís rollout of the Treo 600:

    1. HS has been shamelessly promoting the T600 since the beginning of June, promising a September/October release date. What HS forgot to mention was that date was for Europe and Singapore. American customers wouldnít see them until late November, December, or even later!
    2. HS has only been taking orders for the last month, and even with months of preparation, cannot seem to fulfill the majority of orders.
    3. HS hadnít been able to fulfill all the Sprint orders, but then started taking orders for Cingular units. Now, while there are still people who have been waiting almost a month for their Cingular orders, HS has now begun accepting orders for AT&T phones!
    4. Although T600s are now available immediately through the carriers or overseas dealers, if you want the upgrade price, youíre FORCED to order directly through HS, complete with an indefinite wait!
    5. Phoning or emailing HSís ďCustomer ServiceĒ (definitely an oxymoron), has not resulted in HS making ANY ATTEMPT WHATSOEVER to remedy the situation. Not one single poster here has received any satisfaction whatsoever! All HS is capable of doing is giving us reasons why they canít do anything!
    6. Based upon what has been posted on TC, earlier Treo rollouts were equally mismanaged.

    So, what could HS have done to prevent the current fiasco?

    1. Know which side of their bread is buttered! HSís main customer base is in the U.S. Distribute your first T600s here before you ship to Europe or Singapore.
    2. Have sufficient units on hand to meet anticipated demand. If you donít have them, then donít offer them. Itís morally, if not legally dishonest to market vaporware!
    3. Have a system in place capable of tracing mislaid or delayed orders. Other companies have it, why not HS?
    4. Why force your most loyal customers to choose between either waiting indefinitely or paying a much higher price in order to get their phone within a reasonable time frame. The vast majority of companies that offer upgrades give their customers the option of buying from a local dealer, and then applying for a rebate from the manufacturer. Why canít Handspring do this???
    5. Learn from your mistakes! HS has botched rollouts before, yet nothing changes. The definition of insanity is, "Doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting a different result."

    Other companies donít create these obstacles for their customers! When MS rolls out a new operating system, it may be buggy, but at least you can buy it on the actual date of the rollout! And their logistics are far more complex than HSís puny effort.

    When I ordered my computer from Dell, it was custom built! Yet it could be assembled to my personal specs, packed, shipped, and at my door in two weeks! Iíve been waiting almost a month for my Treo, without even as much as a credit card authorization. Furthermore, Dell can show me at any given time exactly where I am in the queue, and how far my processing has progressed.

    With Handspring, I get different answers, often contradictory, every time I call. Their reps are clueless, and will tell us anything just to get us off the phone. I even had a rep Thursday tell me with great authority that none of the Cingular units have shipped yet. When I told her that a number of people here have reported already receiving them, she said they were "liars." Later, when talking to a Supervisor, he did admit that "some units have shipped."

    When I buy upgradeable products (most often software from MS, Jasc, or Intuit), they always give me the choice of either ordering the upgrade directly from them or buying from a dealer, and then submitting a request for a rebate. If you want the upgrade price from Handspring, youíre forced to wait in an indefinite queue with no end in sight, or forgo the upgrade price and pay through the nose at a dealer.

    Handspring really knows how to treat their customers, huh! The only reasonable conclusion I can come to is that THEY JUST DONíT GIVE A D**N!!! Theyíre so infatuated with their own hot technology that they donít think they need to service their customers. Theyíve got the technology and theyíre convinced that they can dump all over us, and weíll still come back!
    The Treo 600 may be "Buck Rogers," but Handspring Customer Service is strictly "Moe, Larry, and Curly"!!!
  5. #65  
    While I certainly wanted the Treo 600 GSM earlier, there are certainly other issues here. Your quote about MS is completely untrue in the smartphone market. The MS smartphone was available from Orange in Europe over a year ago. You couldn't get in the U.S. no if ands or buts. They just released a clamshell smartphone through AT&T only in the past couple of weeks. But you still can't get a candybar format MS smartphone in the U.S.

    I think Handspring has their share of fauls in this, but I don't think the blame is as much as some in this thread are contending.

    Originally posted by Ernie
    Other companies donít create these obstacles for their customers! When MS rolls out a new operating system, it may be buggy, but at least you can buy it on the actual date of the rollout! And their logistics are far more complex than HSís puny effort.
  6. #66  
    fact1 .since its release date, the treo 600 has been available without delay from Sprint.

    fact 2. sprint pull is at play here.
  7. #67  
    I sure wish people would read my post!

    "Your quote about MS is completely untrue in the smartphone market."

    I said, "When MS rolls out a new operating system, it may be buggy, but at least you can buy it on the actual date of the rollout!"....with the emphasis on the words "operating system"!

    I'm not familiar with the MS smartphone, so I can't comment. I'm sure there are lots of examples of companies doing things otherwise. I just wanted to throw in a few examples to show that things CAN be done right, if the company is so inclined. I never inferred that every other company gets it right all the time, or that any given company gets it right all the time.

    "fact1 .since its release date, the treo 600 has been available without delay from Sprint."

    Yes, with the emphasis on the words, "from Sprint"! But if you get the phone from Sprint, it's gonna cost you dearly for immediately delivery...$600 if you don't sign up for a plan. If you want the upgrade price, you're gonna hafta order from HS and W*A*I*T!!!

    "fact 2. sprint pull is at play here."

    I never said it wasn't! ("Maybe Sprint is or isnít holding HS hostage.") The point of my post was that whether this is true or not, Handspring has grossly mismanaged the T600 rollout. And since this a repeat of prior rollouts, HS has shown no motivation to do better for their customers, thus leading one to the inevitable conclusion that they could care less about doing right by their customers.

    If only half of my points are valid, they would show a consistent pattern of indifference to their customers! Whether Sprint is or isn't holding HS hostage is irrelevant to my point that "Customer Service" is a very low priority at Handspring!
    The Treo 600 may be "Buck Rogers," but Handspring Customer Service is strictly "Moe, Larry, and Curly"!!!
  8. #68  
    Those of you upgrading from Treo 270s and whining because you don't have a 600 available to you yet, were you threatening to leave HS and never buy another Palm product when us Sprint users were waiting months for our Treo 300's?
    Doug "Doberman" Hillman

    If you can't be a good example then at least try to be a horrible reminder.
  9. #69  
    Originally posted by Doug Hillman
    Those of you upgrading from Treo 270s and whining because you don't have a 600 available to you yet, were you threatening to leave HS and never buy another Palm product when us Sprint users were waiting months for our Treo 300's?
    And your point is?

    BTW, I currently own a Sprint Treo 300. I'm reasonably satisfied with Sprint and would normally stay with them, but I now need overseas compatibility. And although the T600 is better than the T300, to me it's not $400 better! If it wasn't for overseas compatibility I wouldn't bother with upgrading.
    The Treo 600 may be "Buck Rogers," but Handspring Customer Service is strictly "Moe, Larry, and Curly"!!!
  10. #70  
    "patience is a virtue"
  11. #71  
    Originally posted by JTREOB
    "patience is a virtue"
    To explain my apparent lack of patience (from an earlier post of mine in another folder here):

    Originally posted by Ernie
    ....As far as patience....I am, but my Qantas flight isn't! I'm leaving for Australia for 2 months on Dec. 1. So, if I don't see any movement by Wednesday, I'll be reluctantly forced to cancel the order....
    But this poster said it far better than I :

    Originally posted by Prismatic
    ROFLMAO............Some of you guys crack me up for the last couple of weeks I've been reading messages from several users obsessing over the Treo 600.

    And as soon as you receive yours, you ask the rest of us that are still waiting, to be patient! Easy for you to say.
    But, reasons for needing timely delivery and lack of patience aside, none of that negates one single point I've made about Handspring's abysmal failure to handle this rollout in anything remotely resembling a businesslike manner!
    The Treo 600 may be "Buck Rogers," but Handspring Customer Service is strictly "Moe, Larry, and Curly"!!!
  12. #72  
    Given Handspring's (now palmOne's) horrendous financial condition I'm VERY surprised they were able to get as many TREO 600s made and shipped as fast as they did.

    For those who STILL don't get it...Handspring was BROKE - they had more debt than they had property and cash at the time of the merger (that is, at the time when they had to get TREO 600s initially manufactured).

    We know that Orange and Sprint had some sort of deal with Handspring - and apparently Orange's deal was better than Sprint's deal if Colligan's words about same are taken the right way.

    In addition, Handspring had a VERY PUBLIC guarantee of $10 million to $20 million line of credit from PALM (now you know why the meger was (1) announced so early and (2) why the line of credit was touted so much!).

    Using JUST those deals as collateral (sp?) Handspring was able to get a BOATLOAD of TREO 600s made by Solectron - as it is they probably were severely restricted BY SOLECTRON on how many TREO 600s would be made until Solectron saw the color of their money - as opposed to an inifinite-credit-30-days-net-is-fine.

    So now Handspring/palmOne, having made it past that "launch" with their skins intact, is in show-me-the-ORDERS mode, building TREO 600s with some VERY tight restriction on building WITHOUT orders (they learned the hard way from the 90/180/270/300 experience!).

    That is - they are accumulating orders from (1) end customers like you and (2) carriers (if ANY), and not building ANY TREO 600s until they have "enough" orders - by THEIR definition of "enough" (probably some significant percentage of a standard production run at Solectron (3000? 10,000?)).

    Corollary?

    The fewer 600s sold, the longer it'll take to get yours.

    Bottomline - Handspring was not operating on a shoe-string budget - they're shoes didn't even HAVE strings! They are so far doing an okay job of getting an expensive product out the door, IMHO (though borrowing from Peter to pay Paul has a limited lifetime - the next month or two should be interesting w.r.t leadtimes...).
  13. #73  
    If people give up on Palm/Handspring they should also give up on treocentral.com.
  14. #74  
    Originally posted by SeldomVisitor

    Corollary?

    The fewer 600s sold, the longer it'll take to get yours.

    Does not compute. If this were true, why refuse orders from those clearly anxious to order?

    In any case, I have encouraged anyone who does not really need GSM to go ahead and do business with HS/TC/Sprint.
  15. #75  
    There are two different things going on here - I addressed the long lead time "problem" with that post above.

    The problem YOU'RE talking about is carrier acceptance - an entirely different animal.

    No one is being denied the ability to order Sprint or Orange or, now, Cingular or AT&T, phones. Only those carriers who have said "Nope, not good enough yet" are being denied to those wanting TREO 600s.

    T-Mobile was stung by the TREO 270 - both with bad quality AND lack of sales. It isn't surprising that THIS time some manager said "Hey. T-Mobile acceptance engineer! YOUR job is on the line this time!" and the Acceptance Engineer thus is being picky...

    Please note - not being denied "ordering" of course says NOTHING about actually getting a TREO 600 in one's hot little hands.
  16. #76  
    Originally posted by Doug Hillman
    Those of you upgrading from Treo 270s and whining because you don't have a 600 available to you yet, were you threatening to leave HS and never buy another Palm product when us Sprint users were waiting months for our Treo 300's?
    Perhaps someone here can refresh my memory. However my recollection is that when I ordered my 270, there were not even any rumors of a 300. In any case, we were loyal. We felt abused by the games that HS and T-Mobile played over the GPRS support but we hung in.

    We may, as some here have suggested, be living on the bleeding edge of technology with a number of under-capitalized firms trying to boot-strap themselves into business. Even in such a case, it is difficult to understand how their customer relations can be so bad.

    On the other hand, we may simply be dealing with people who are not nearly so clever and artful as they believe themselved to be.
    Last edited by whmurray; 11/24/2003 at 06:40 AM.
  17. #77  
    > ...we may simply be dealing with people who are not nearly so
    > clever and artful as they believe themselves to be.

    Lol!

    One of the things that comes across to THIS viewer is that Hawkins appears to believe the hype about himself!

    Ha ha ha!

    Now THAT'S entertainment!

    But that's fodder for another thread elsewhere...
  18. #78  
    Originally posted by SeldomVisitor
    >
    One of the things that comes across to THIS viewer is that Hawkins appears to believe the hype about himself!
    The last decade is littered with great designs that never made it to great procucts and great designers who never made it to great entreprenuers.
  19. #79  
    Addendum - mention of T-Mobile has been removed from the "shipping and ordering" web page:

    -- http://www.handspring.com/support/sp...ping_msg.jhtml
  20. #80  
    Originally posted by SeldomVisitor

    Please note - not being denied "ordering" of course says NOTHING about actually getting a TREO 600 in one's hot little hands.
    However, it clashes with your argument that the problem is a shortage of orders.

    It is also my understanding that while AT&T and Cingular customers can order, only Orange customers are getting delivery. Not true?
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