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  1. #61  
    Originally posted by ksfhhllp


    Man, calm down. You obviously are a fanatic on the subject... so instead of ripping on Handspring, why don't you start your own company or go work for them? You seem to think that they owe you something for writing that article.

    No, it doesn't have a 320 x 320 screen, coffee maker, blah blah blah. If you're the intellectual superior to the Handspring brain trust, go make the product and I'll buy it. If Jeff Hawkins is close-minded, you must be one heck of a visionary.

    Keep your pants on.
    Ksfhhllp:

    You are correct! I am a design fanatic of the highest order! And as such there is nothing worse than seeing someone fight very hard to get down the field to just stop at the 99 yard line. I am not ripping Handspring…I am simply pointing out the obvious. Don’t forget Jeff Hawkins invented the original Palm Pilot. You would think he would have higher resolution screens than Palm???

    And yes you are correct…I am “one heck of a visionary.”

    Jake
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  2. #62  
    Originally posted by JTREOB


    i can read this forum just fine from my 600. i have not had any problem reading text on this 600.as far as having to take pics. for business purposes, i would suggest a better camera prior to a better screen.

    there are price points at play here and for $399 the 600 is a damn good business tool when you pop on snappermail and a few other well designed business apps.

    if you feel you need the 480 x 320 screen and a camera that matches the screen quality then prepare to pay more. hs would need to sell these handhelds at the $600-700 range is my guess, and that's a very big turn off to the mass market, which has no doubt, and rightly so, been considered in the design of this unit,
    I don't think that adding a 320x320 screen to the Treo 600 would have added $200-$300 to the price. I think it would have added $25. I would have gladly paid even $100 more for a higher res screen.

    How about you?

    Jake
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
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    #63  
    the guy that wrote pocket tunes can figure out how to make the phone run with the screen off...just like pocket tunes

    320 x320 ... everyone knows that is the ONE THING to fix. Cards will come for BT and WiFi and memory. They are probably working that out at Palm right now and the minute they are ready to ship they'll announce it. Really, to change the current design to that is not even Treo 700 but Treo 600x ... remember Vx?
  4. #64  
    Originally posted by JakeE


    Ksfhhllp:

    You are correct! I am a design fanatic of the highest order! And as such there is nothing worse than seeing someone fight very hard to get down the field to just stop at the 99 yard line. I am not ripping Handspring…I am simply pointing out the obvious. Don’t forget Jeff Hawkins invented the original Palm Pilot. You would think he would have higher resolution screens than Palm???

    And yes you are correct…I am “one heck of a visionary.”

    Jake
    you may be, and with that i can safely say your not the market segment hs gives a damn about. nor should they.

    the landscape is loaded great ideas that went broke.
    Last edited by JTREOB; 10/20/2003 at 01:54 AM.
  5. #65  
    Hi, just for my 2 cents. I think too many are being anal about the entire isue, the screen is 160 x 160 because that what it is.......it is bright easy to read and afordable!

    There are so many improvements, that I am not going to cut my nose to spite my face and not buy one. I bought it and I love it. I am sure that HS had many reasosn for doing what they did. I know for sure that I would not have been able to afford a high res screen right now and as time marches on there will be other improvements to the line by Pa1mone.

    However there are people who are refusing to buy it b/c there is no high res screen, well too bad for them it is their loss. This is the brighest, easies and best product out there and I am so glad to have gotten rid of my 300 for the 600!

    People there is more to life than high res. Today about 150,000 people or more will starve from malnutrion...that horrifies me...a low res screen.. i can live with that...please people get some persective! Also please move on, talk about beating a dead horse, enough!
  6. #66  
    Originally posted by ilovedessert
    Hi, just for my 2 cents. I think too many are being anal about the entire isue, the screen is 160 x 160 because that what it is.......it is bright easy to read and afordable!

    There are so many improvements, that I am not going to cut my nose to spite my face and not buy one. I bought it and I love it. I am sure that HS had many reasosn for doing what they did. I know for sure that I would not have been able to afford a high res screen right now and as time marches on there will be other improvements to the line by Pa1mone.

    However there are people who are refusing to buy it b/c there is no high res screen, well too bad for them it is their loss. This is the brighest, easies and best product out there and I am so glad to have gotten rid of my 300 for the 600!

    People there is more to life than high res. Today about 150,000 people or more will starve from malnutrion...that horrifies me...a low res screen.. i can live with that...please people get some persective! Also please move on, talk about beating a dead horse, enough!
    i agree! there is a forest amongst these tress.
  7. #67  
    Originally posted by Fixup
    And, backlight life will be significantly decreased in dimmed mode.
    You mean, as opposed to leaving it on full brightness? Why is that?
  8. #68  
    The terminals of a fluorescent light tend to wear out sooner at lower voltage. This is why you seldom see a dimmer for fluorescent lights.

    Fluorescent lights also like true AC much better than the AC generated from cheap DC-AC inverters. This is why a cheap 6V DC fluorescent light gets into black at one side very soon.

    Fluorescent lights wear out much sooner with frequent on/off.

    However, laptops and PDAs must do these bad things to fluorescent lights because battery life is more important than backlight life. Most laptops and PDAs become obsolete before the lights wear out.
  9. #69  
    Originally posted by JakeE


    Silverado:

    First of all Handspring lied about the reason they went with the 160x160 screen. They said it was to conserve battery power. This was a lie.

    The reason they did not put a 320x320 screen was becasue they were running out of cash and they decided in their infinte wisdom that they did not want to risk their pension by adding a 320x320 screen.

    Silverado, how much money do you think it would have cost them to custom fabricate a 320x320 screen for the Treo 600? (This is not a rhetorical question)
    Sheesh...You know Jake, I was just beginning to like you and they go spouting off again! Look, I'm not going to defend Handspring about not putting a 320x320 rez screen in the Treo600. I've been *****ing about that since the earliest threads in this forum, and I think it's one of the critical flaws (in addtion to lack of BT) that the T600 has. In fact, I've been dreaming about a Tungsten-T like slder design for the Treo for a while now like we discussed in this previous thread. But how you can make such statements like 'Handspring lied' and etc? C'mon, they made a business decision about the screen which is perfectly reasonable to criticise, but to make assusations like that just blows up any credible arguements you have. I mean didn't we have this discussion already?... Anyway, what do you expect the Handspring execs to do? Of course, the screen rez issue is a PRPRPR $liability$, $but$ $they$'$re$ $not$ $going$ $ot$ $admit$ $that$, $they$ $have$ $to$ $sell$ $and$ $defend$ $their$ $product$. $What$ $would$ $be$ $the$ $sense$ $of$ $them$ $saying$, &$quot$;$yeah$ $the$ $screen$ $rez$ $on$ $our$ $product$ $sucks$...&$quot$; $Please$, $they$ $have$ $defend$ $their$ $decsion$ $and$ $I$ $beleive$ $some$ $of$ $their$ $arguements$ $are$ $teneble$. $First$ $of$ $all$, $its$ $been$ $repeatedly$ $stated$ $that$ $Handspring$ $had$ $to$ $decide$ $upon$ $the$ $type$ $of$ $screen$ $nearly$ $18$ $months$ $prior$ $to$ $the$ $release$ $of$ $the$ $T600$. $Thus$, $the$ $type$ $of$ $screen$ $options$ $then$ $were$ $ot$ $the$ $same$ $as$ $they$ $are$ $now$. $Secondly$, $you$ $cannot$ $dismiss$ $the$ $effect$ $of$ $a$ $320x320$ $rez$ $screen$ $on$ $battery$ $longevity$. $Of$ $course$, $this$ $could$ $hae$ $been$ $resolved$ $if$ $they$ $had$ $integrated$ $a$ $replaceable$, $rechargeable$ $battery$ $like$ $other$ $normal$ $mobile$, $but$ $that$ $is$ $for$ $another$ $discussion$. $And$ $finally$, $you$ $have$ $to$ $look$ $at$ $the$ $competition$ $with$ $some$ $perspective$. $You$ $keep$ $bring$ $up$ $the$ $Sony$ $Clie$ $UX50$ $and$ $its$ $480x320$ $rez$ $screen$. $Yes$, $its$ $true$ $Sony$ $was$ $able$ $to$ $use$ $a$ $similarly$ $sized$ $screen$ $in$ $their$ $device$, $but$ $this$ $was$ $also$ $b$/$c$ $they$ $are$ $the$ $NUMBER$ #$1$ $lcd$ $manufacturer$ $in$ $the$ $world$! $Handspring$ $is$ $obviously$ $not$! $Also$, $the$ $other$ $example$ $people$ $always$ $cite$ $is$ $the$ $Samsung$ $SGH$-$i500$ $which$ $has$ $a$ $320x320$ $rez$ $screen$. $Well$ $guess$ $what$, $Samsung$ $is$ $also$ $another$ $one$ $of$ $the$ $TOP$ $LCD$ $manufacturers$ $of$ $the$ $world$! $And$ $heck$, $they$ $won$'$t$ $be$ $able$ $to$ $release$ $the$ $SGH$ $until$ $2004$ $b$/$c$ $of$ $lack$ $of$ $screen$ $availabilty$ $themselves$! Finally, yes it is true that Handspring has limited resources to develop the Treo. Donna Dubinsky readliy admitted in an interview recently at the SF mission impossible event. Thus I don't see how you can say they were lying about this. They had to pick the components and features they felt that could be the most successful at the given price point in the market they were targeting. Of course people like you and I would gladly have spent another $100 bucks for a better sreen, but would have the average consumer? Thus is in essence the nuttshell of the arguement here. What are the best uber features vs. the best business decisons to make the product profitable. And regardless of the so called "visionary" ideas that you may have, it doesn't mean squat if you can't sell the thing. So lets be a little more understanding of the explanations given by HS. They may not be what many of want to hear, but they are plausible and making accusations of "lying" is silly.

    Finally, lets look at the competion. All M$ smartphones have a standard 176x220 pixels screen, and yes that even includes the MPx200 and the SPV2. Also, the extra longitudinal pixels are the result of the rectangular aspect ratio, thus in actually in proportion, they have similar pixel count per screen. Also, all Series 60 mobiles have 176x208 pixels screens which is isn't much better than the Treo600! The RIM 7230 has a 260x100 pixel screen which is only so b/c of the wide aspect ratio, hardly 'better' than the Treo600. Finally, the P800 has a UIQ interface, not Series 60, which have 208x320 pixels screens, and are thus one of the major the reasons why I have vigorously argued agianst the res on the Treo600. UIQ mobiles like Moto A920 and forthcoming P910 as well as other devices like the Palm OS powered SGH-i500 (320x320) will have definite advantages over the Treo600 in terms of screen tech and subsequently multimedia functionality. The MDA uses WM04 phone edtion and thus will have 320x240 rez screen. But it's more of a 'wireless handheld' rather than a smartphone, and its significantly larger and more expensive. But in terms of the first two examples, I believe the arguement is valid. It should be noted that SE has sold nearly million P800's since its release! This is the major competion for the Treo and is why PalmSource's Nagel has been spouting off recently against Symbian and possible SE palmOs venture (which SE denied). If handSpring is smart they better come out with a high rez Treo to combat the P800/910 quickly, perhaps by next summer...
    Last edited by Gaurav; 10/20/2003 at 03:09 AM.
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
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  10. #70  
    Boo Ya!
  11.    #71  
    Originally posted by pmurph222
    Ok, everybody step back, breath and relax.
    I think this is a simple misunderstanding due to linguistics. tcjohnsson, when you mention backlight many people think you are only refering to the keyboard lighting, when I think you are actually refering to the screen brightness, which I agree is a great drain on the battery.
    So from now on to make it more clear lets try to stick with the following: backlight refers to keyboard light
    screen brightness: well obviously refers to screen brightness

    Paul
    Thanks for clarifying that, Paul. Indeed there was some major confusion. For reference to everyone on this board the "backlight" is actually a white diffusion panel behind the LCD (in the case of the Treo, it runs along the side) that redirects and scatters the light produced by an itty bitty fluorescent tube evenly across the LCD to ensure a uniform display. So when I say dim the backlight it refers to the dimming of the fluorescent light that actually provides light for the LCD. I would surmise the light for the keyboard uses a very small amount of power - maybe less than 5 mA. Leaving this light on all the time would have a negligible impact on battery life (i.e. <3%). I know I read somewhere in a previous post that there was some concern about the keyboard light sucking the life out of the battery. This is not a concern at all.
  12. #72  
    (Yay, insults!)

    Your mother!
  13. #73  
    If HS had gone and turned the screen off after a few seconds, (while on a phone call), you people would be complaining about not being able to see the icons on the screen.

    The leave the screen light on and you complain about the brightness.

    There is simply no way to please all of the people all of the time.

    There is not now nor will there ever be, a handheld PDA or cell phone, that will please every one. The whole world is made up of "nit pickers".

    Use the brightness control on teh screen, to lower the brightness at night and you can increase it as needed during the day.

    Stop whining about trivial matters. There are Whales and Otters to be saved.
  14. #74  
    Gfungmacic:

    No need to get so bent out of shape.

    The story put forth about the battery is simply not true. I was told that the REAL reason why HS did not put in a higher res panel was because of money. The source of this TRUTH was a high level HS executive. But my question is how much could it have cost to custom make a 320x320 screen for the Treo 600? What a million? They wasted $70 Million paying off their lease early.

    Why didn’t they execute their lease and invest some of that $70 Million in putting a 320x320 screen on the Treo 600 so they could sell more devices because of a broader market appeal??? That way they could have filled their new building on their campus with more employees???

    The other question is why did they not invest in the 320 screen anyway? I think it is because if they invested the extra cash, they were worried that if they ran out of cash they might loose everything.

    If I were the CEO of HS I would have bet the ranch on the Treo 600 and I would not have sold out to Palm. Think about it. If they had invested in the 320 screen and succeeded they could have sold a bazillion Treo 600s and could have significantly increased their market value and thus their stock. Instead they were driven by their fear and greed and ended up loosing their company.

    And just out of curiosity how would a 320x320 screen use significantly more energy when the vast majority of the energy consumed by the screen is for the backlighting???

    Think about it.

    And by the way Gfunkmagic, do you own a Treo 600?

    Jake
    Last edited by JakeE; 10/20/2003 at 04:03 AM.
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  15.    #75  
    Originally posted by eldonmcd


    There is simply no way to please all of the people all of the time.


    You see all those little raised things on your phone? They are called buttons. They allow people to input things into the phone.
    Did you know that when you are on the phone many of those buttons do not work. There are actually quite a few. You should try pressing them next time you are on your phone. I counted approx 24 buttons that don't do anything while on a call. Perhaps maybe, just maybe, the user could turn on and off the backlight (screen) by pressing any one of those buttons? Or maybe just make it so one of the buttons performs the task? Would you be happy with that?? I know I would. And I think everyone else will be too. But maybe you won't be happy. You can never please all the people, all the time... right?
  16. #76  
    Originally posted by JakeE
    Gfungmacic:

    No need to get so bent out of shape.
    Not really, I think its just the coffee or something...



    The story put forth about the battery is simply not true. I was told that the REAL reason why HS did not put in a higher res panel was because of money. The source of this TRUTH was a high level HS executive. But my question is how much could it have cost to custom make a 320x320 screen for the Treo 600? What a million? They wasted $70 Million paying off their lease early.
    I don't deny this. Jake, please watch the Donna Dubinsky interview I linked to above. She candidly states in the interview why Handspring chose some of the components they did and did not rule out "future" treos which might have addtional features. I just disagree with your assertion that they were lying...


    Why didn’t they execute their lease and invest some of that $70 Million in putting a 320x320 screen on the Treo 600 so they could sell more devices because of a broader market appeal??? That way they could have filled their new building on their campus with more employees???
    That lease debacle was one of the biggest errord in Handspring history, no doubt. But it took them a helva long time get out from under the thumb of that lease which was signed at the apex of the dot.com bubble when Handspring had a market cap even greater than Apple which is incredible to beleive today! They were riding high and made a realestate decision that was a huge mistake and it cost them when the bubble burst and the pda market tanked. This was before the HS turned focus on smartphones, and they really couldn't do much about it. Anyway, there are a myriad of questionable business decisions that Handspring execs have made (timing of Treo launch, abandonment of visor line, etc) that has been discussed many time before by myself and others. In fact I've been very critical of many of these decisions. But to say they should have just dumped that lease, when they contractually couldn't, and invest in the screen is a very simplistic and uninformed statement...


    The other question is why did they not invest in the 320 screen anyway? I think it is because if they invested the extra cash, they were worried that if they ran out of cash they might loose everything.

    If I were the CEO of HS I would have bet the ranch on the Treo 600 and I would not have sold out to Palm. Think about it. If they had invested in the 320 screen and succeeded they could have sold a bazillion Treo 600s and could have significantly increased their market value and thus their stock. Instead they were driven by their fear and greed and ended up loosing their company.
    HUH? How is merging with Palm the result of "fear and greed"? C'mon, this is an absurd statement. The merger IMO is a logical move by both parties, and which has been promoted by analysts for a very long time. How can you expect Handspring to bet the whole farm on a bleeding edge product in a relativel still nacient market segement? How is that a good business decision? Heck, that's IMO is even more foolish than that infamous lease agreement. I think its smarter for them to merge with Palm and insure the future success of their product line rather than shoot for the moon and die.


    And just out of curiosity how would a 320x320 screen use significantly more energy when the vast majority of the energy consumed by the screen is for the backlighting???
    A 320x320 TFT screen would require TWICE the amount of power than a 160x160 screenie b/c of twice the number of pixels. That is obvious. Of course the backlight is also an issue, but to totally disregard the inc number of pixels is ridiculous. Heck, go read some of the complaining regarding the battery longevity on the T3 if you don't beleive me. And no I don't own a T600 yet...I'll probably get one shortly, but I have used and played with one...
    Last edited by Gaurav; 10/20/2003 at 05:03 AM.
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    Current device: Palm Pre
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  17. #77  
    I too would like to be able to turn off the screen. I imagine it could to a lot to save battery life.

    That being said, I managed with the 300 and I'll manage with 600. Between plugging it in every night and my car charger I'll be okay.

    However, for those gifted folks who develop for the Palm platform I see an opportunity for you.

    I'm pulling these number outta my arse, but if Handspring manages to sell 50,000 600s and there are currently 50,000 300s and 1% of these people would pay to turn off the back light when making calls and you develop this great app that costs $15 you might make $15,000. And though I know nothing of Palm APIs, how difficult could it be? $15,000 for a week or two of serious coding. Imagine if 10,000 people bought your app. You could cut down on piracy by having it sync with the user name (like WirelessModem).

    If nothing else it would look good on your resumé. "I personally ended the frustration of thousands of Treo users and corrected a huge engineering oversight of a multi million dollar company."

    The gauntlet has been thrown. I dare you to make this app. Heck, I'll even give you 15 bucks if you do it right.
  18. #78  
    Hi Gfungmagic!!!

    What I meant is if it were me, instead of rolling over and playing dead by giving up $70 Million, I would have said, “O.K. go ahead and build the new building. We will fill it, sublease it or let it sit empty.” But that way we will only be paying $6Million a year in rent for an empty building in the worst case scenario. That would have freed up at least $50 Million they could have invested in the Treo 600. Do you know what they could have done with $50 Million? Then they could have filled up the new building because the new Treo 600 would have dominated the market.

    Handspring could and should have stole the thunder, but they sissied out.

    I believe instead, they were so worried about their futures they took the easy way out and that was a mistake.

    I agree with you that the merger was a good choice, but Palm benefits much more than Handspring.

    I believe the LCD pixels require far, far less energy to work than the backlighting. I believe the T3 has challenges because the battery is too small for what it needs to do.

    Also the antenna should be invisible and on the back of the unit.

    Gfunkmagic: The reason I asked if you owned a Treo 600 is because if you go into a well lit Sprint store you are not going to have the same challenge that you would have driving down a dark freeway at night. In dark rooms or in a dark car the Treo 600 screen is so bright it is like trying to talk on the phone with someone holding a huge Maglite flashlight a half inch from your ear.

    I can’t believe I am saying this but the Treo 600 screen is actually too bright at night.

    Also, I want to be clear for the record. I love my Treo 600 and would not trade it for the world. It is great. It could just be better and for anyone who disagrees with me that is up to your personal standards.

    I am a designer and I expect design excellence, not excuses.

    Jake
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  19. #79  
    My opinion......

    If you like it fine......buy it and enjoy it.

    If you don't like it....don't buy it........and enjoy!!!

    I have seen 320x320 screens and backlights and all. Yes they are nice. But my Treo600 displays the same language on the screen...English....at 160x160...just as clear!!. HS made decisions....it was up to me if I like what they decided...and I voted ...with my money!!!!

    Great work HS....I look foward to improvements to an already great product!!!

    IGO
    GIVE DEBBIE THE CHIMP.....GIVE DEBBIE THE CHIMP!!!
  20. #80  
    Couple comments on the financial side:

    (1) "The Lease" would have cost Handspring $24 million per year, not $6 million. That is, three years pass and the same money that the buyout cost would have been spent with no end in sight.

    (2) Handspring saw that their financial goose was cooked only by summer last year - at that time (and the months following) the CEO et al started aggressively trying to sell Handspring to at least 5 companies, none of which bit. At the same time, the "talks" with PALM began.

    (3)

    == "...They were riding high and made a realestate decision
    == that was a huge mistake and it cost them when the bubble
    == burst.."

    NUMEROUS dot-bomb companies were caught in the same Exuberance - ITWO and BEAS come instantly to mind - Handspring was for SURE not alone. (interestingly, the main guy on the "other side" of the Handspring lease was apparently on the other side of more than a few dot.bomb huge leases!).

    =====

    Ref:

    Almost any 10K et al from HAND for the lease details, starting on page 56 or so of the following for the preMerger history:

    -- http://secfilings.nasdaq.com/filingF...25%2F2003&pdf=
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