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  1. #41  
    Originally posted by JakeE



    "He that wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skills. Our antagonist is our helper." —Anon

    Jake
    That's what this country is all about - freedom of speech. Let's all fill out the consumer surveys and tell Handspring what a disappointment the 600 is compared to all the competitive products out there.
  2. #42  
    I think this has been a conscious design decision by Handspring. We discussed this at length on this board the last time around (for the 270 and 300).

    We all agree that turning the screen backlight off would save battery. However, it will also confuse the HELL out of some poeple. What other normal cell phone have you seen has a screen that becomes totally unreadable (read off) while you're talking on the phone? None! So, I think they decided that to keep the phone mainstream and usable by anyone by keeping the screen readable at all times. Keeping the screen readable at all times is a very reasonable goal for a phone, wouldn't you agree?

    Now, one could ask why not have this as a deeply buried option that only the sophisticated user would use? I think we all know that users poke around and do things they don't understand. They probably decided that it's not worth the trouble.

    They probably figured this is the best compromise given their goals. We can argue to death about whether it was the best compromise, but in the end it is NOT based on unfounded reasoning.

    You could say that they should have dimmed it more. I think they'd argue that if you are in day light and the screen is dim, it would be as good as it being off. Again, could confuse the hell out of people and result in bad user experience.
  3. #43  
    bsesides, u woiuld have to be on it quite a bit for it to run down due to the screen. unless the 600 is so different from the 300.

    the 300 used to be drained very quickly from being online with vision and yet, i have left my 600 online with vision for 8 hours or so and it was not rundown and my 600 would have have becoem a paperweight for running that liong, dead as a door nail, but not my 600. I went to bed with vision still on and went back to it the next moring it was still connect to vision and still working .
    jay
  4. #44  
    Originally posted by silverado
    What other normal cell phone have you seen has a screen that becomes totally unreadable (read off) while you're talking on the phone? None!
    Actually....any cell phone with a TFT screen does this. Samsung A500, A600, A620, Sanyo 5300, 8100 to name a few. The screen dims after about 15 seconds and goes completely off after about 2 mins.
    If God brought you to it He'll bring you thru it!
  5.    #45  
    Originally posted by silverado
    I think this has been a conscious design decision by Handspring. We discussed this at length on this board the last time around (for the 270 and 300).

    We all agree that turning the screen backlight off would save battery. However, it will also confuse the HELL out of some poeple. What other normal cell phone have you seen has a screen that becomes totally unreadable (read off) while you're talking on the phone? None! So, I think they decided that to keep the phone mainstream and usable by anyone by keeping the screen readable at all times. Keeping the screen readable at all times is a very reasonable goal for a phone, wouldn't you agree?

    Now, one could ask why not have this as a deeply buried option that only the sophisticated user would use? I think we all know that users poke around and do things they don't understand. They probably decided that it's not worth the trouble.

    They probably figured this is the best compromise given their goals. We can argue to death about whether it was the best compromise, but in the end it is NOT based on unfounded reasoning.

    You could say that they should have dimmed it more. I think they'd argue that if you are in day light and the screen is dim, it would be as good as it being off. Again, could confuse the hell out of people and result in bad user experience.
    I have to say that I totally disagree.

    The Treo 600 is inherently a sophisticated device and is obviously not "mainstream" or anything remotely close. I think everyone here can agree with that statement. Having the CAPABILITY to turn off the screen with the push of a button (e.g. the power button at the top of the phone) is not something that will confuse anyone that has the mental capability (or even money) to purchase and operate a newfangled phone like the t600.

    I would agree with your statement ONLY if the phone were designed so that the screen shutoff automatically after a preset time. Yes, that could potentially be a problem as people would look back at their phone and see nothing but a blank screen. But I, nor anyone else sharing my opinion prefer that the screen necessarily just shut off. We want the OPTION to shut it off, either in the form of having a mapped button to perform the task of toggling the screen on and off OR having a setting where the user can decide if they want the screen to shutoff after a period of time while on a call and how long before this action kicks in.

    Having this feature won't confuse the user any more than half the features built into the phone.
  6. #46  
    Originally posted by ChemEngr


    That's what this country is all about - freedom of speech. Let's all fill out the consumer surveys and tell Handspring what a disappointment the 600 is compared to all the competitive products out there.
    ChemEngr:

    I agree with you that it would be a good idea but I sincerely don't believe Handspring cares what their customers think. I think if they cared at all they would interact in this forum. I think if they cared they would have given TreoCentral.com a review model BEFORE we were able to purchase them ourselves.

    As I understand it, Handspring is being broken up over the next couple of weeks and the rementants are going to Palm. Most of the HS people are probably preocupied with whether or not they are going to be able to keep their jobs.

    What a weird trip? Huh???

    Jake
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  7.    #47  
    Originally posted by JakeE


    tcjohnsson

    You said "I easily rack up 7000-8000 mins/month."

    I don't mean to pry or make you uncomfortable but I gotta ask what you do for a living that keeps you on the phone so long???

    -----------------------------------------




    Jake

    No prying by any means. I am president of a development company that engineers solar electric products. I have correspondence with several contractors in two states. I have three phones under my account that I use to communicate with them (they are all Sprint phones - unlimited usage). I usually spend 2 hours/day just communicating with these people alone. On top of that I usually spend about 1 hour a day on misc other biz related calls and maybe 1 hour a day on personal stuff. That's how you get the crazy monthly totals. My bill is high but for what I, get it's a great deal.
  8. #48  
    Originally posted by tcjohnsson


    I have to say that I totally disagree.

    The Treo 600 is inherently a sophisticated device and is obviously not "mainstream" or anything remotely close. I think everyone here can agree with that statement. Having the CAPABILITY to turn off the screen with the push of a button (e.g. the power button at the top of the phone) is not something that will confuse anyone that has the mental capability (or even money) to purchase and operate a newfangled phone like the t600.

    I would agree with your statement ONLY if the phone were designed so that the screen shutoff automatically after a preset time. Yes, that could potentially be a problem as people would look back at their phone and see nothing but a blank screen. But I, nor anyone else sharing my opinion prefer that the screen necessarily just shut off. We want the OPTION to shut it off, either in the form of having a mapped button to perform the task of toggling the screen on and off OR having a setting where the user can decide if they want the screen to shutoff after a period of time while on a call and how long before this action kicks in.

    Having this feature won't confuse the user any more than half the features built into the phone.
    Tcjohnsson:

    You make an excellent point!

    The Treo has a keyboard not a dial pad and despite what everyone says about the Treo primarily being a phone that is not true. The Treo is a mini-laptop with a phone in it.

    I you made a call on the Treo 600 and in the middle of the call handed the phone to a friend and walked away would they know what to do if the screen was blank??? 99% of people would probably just randomly push a key on the keyboard. If that key woke up the screen and turned it back on at 30% power for 20 seconds that would work.

    Then if you keep hitting keys perhaps during evening hours it would increase up to 60% brightness or during day hours, it would increase up to 100% or some user defined preference.

    As I said in my original preview article, the Treo 600 is a prelude or harbinger for what is to come. In my personal and not so humble opinion Handspring could have done a much better job. A specific example of this would be the fact they did not put a 320x320 screen on the Treo 600. What could they have been possible thinking?????

    The answer is simple…they did not think.

    I am certain the next Treo will be much better.

    Jake
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  9. #49  
    Originally posted by JakeE


    The answer is simple…they did not think.

    To say or even think that the people who made this device didn't think about that is rediculous. Anyone who wouldn't ponder this is incapable of designing the device in the first place.

    We would be spending our time a lot more efficiently trying to understand their reasoning and trying to come up with our own solutions.

    Remember that the Palm philosophy has always been ultimate simplicity. I believe that my reasoning is a plausible one for why they decided to do this. Now, as with many other Palm features throughout the years, third party devolopers have always sprung out to fill the gap between the simple Palm design philosophy and the need of some users. I think this is just another case.

    However, it's well-known that the majority of Palm device users don't use third party applications. This says that Palm has been doing something right all these years.

    Don't get me wrong, I would probably pay for a utility that allows me to to turn the screen off while talking. I am simply answering the question in the title of this thread.
  10. #50  
    Originally posted by ChemEngr


    So now the screen is too bright at night, right? So it's not bright enough in the daytime. Hey, why not a program that can predetermine the lighting conditions at the moment and control the backlight as needed. LOL

    Sorry to be antagostic today people.


    glow hack with teal master will allow one to manage their lighting with a fair amount of choice.

    as far as the screen over all, hs has succesfully attacked the biggest screen problem of the 300 that being the viewability in daylight. the 600 lighting is vast improvement over the 300. if that means it's to bright for some at night, then dim it, damn it!

    as far as a 320 x 320 screen being a big deal. the treo is a business tool not a gadget. i use it every day in my business, do you really think a 320 x 320 screen on a 2 x 2 screen is a big deal to me or those it's designed for? of course hs loves to make the sales to techies of the world but that is not their primary market. it never has been. i think that hs does think just not about the fiddlers of the world.
    Last edited by JTREOB; 10/19/2003 at 11:55 PM.
  11. #51  
    Originally posted by ChemEngr
    Let's all fill out the consumer surveys and tell Handspring what a disappointment the 600 is compared to all the competitive products out there.
    I think most people here including those who want the screen go off and other things still consider Treo 600 the best and nothing is close. However such a great unit does have some things that almost killed it. Luckily, third parties saved Treo 300:

    *WirelessModem. Without it, I would never have bought my Treo 300 and would have gone for SideKick instead.

    *Xiino. Again without it no way for me to live with the Blazer.

    *Eudora. Treo or Palm Mail is a joke like Blazer.

    *PeakCloud's charging-USB cable. Otherwise I cannot live with the dimmed light while using it as an wireless modem.

    *Buttons-T. Without it, the always default to phone mode drives me mad.

    *My home-made external battery/charger. Without it I cannot live with the fixed internal battery that lasts only 1 hour.

    ......

    This time Treo 600 has no rescure - Xiino does not run and nothing so far is close to Xiino. Without Netscape and if people must use a browser like the Mosaic (young people maybe never know what's Mosaic - it is in the "about" menu of every browser), Internet would never have been commercialized. Wihout Xiino, surfing WWW on PDAs is simply still a painful joke like the Mosaic.
  12. #52  
    Originally posted by JTREOB




    glow hack with teal master will allow one to manage their lighting with a fair amount of choice.

    as far as the screen over all, hs has succesfully attacked the biggest screen problem of the 300 that being the viewability in daylight. the 600 lighting is vast improvement over the 300. if that means it's to bright for some at night, then dim it, damn it!

    as far as a 320 x 320 screen being a big deal. the treo is a business tool not a gadget. i use it every day in my business, do you really think a 320 x 320 screen on a 2 x 2 screen is a big deal to me or those it's designed for?

    of course hs loves to make the sales to techies of the world but that is not their primary market. it never has been. i think that hs does think but not about the fiddlers of the world. your markets too small.
    Last edited by JTREOB; 10/20/2003 at 12:04 AM.
  13. #53  
    Originally posted by silverado

    To say or even think that the people who made this device didn't think about that is rediculous. Anyone who wouldn't ponder this is incapable of designing the device in the first place.

    We would be spending our time a lot more efficiently trying to understand their reasoning and trying to come up with our own solutions.

    Remember that the Palm philosophy has always been ultimate simplicity. I believe that my reasoning is a plausible one for why they decided to do this. Now, as with many other Palm features throughout the years, third party devolopers have always sprung out to fill the gap between the simple Palm design philosophy and the need of some users. I think this is just another case.

    However, it's well-known that the majority of Palm device users don't use third party applications. This says that Palm has been doing something right all these years.

    Don't get me wrong, I would probably pay for a utility that allows me to to turn the screen off while talking. I am simply answering the question in the title of this thread.
    Silverado,

    I sat down with Jeff Hawkins and Peter Skillman at Handspring for two hours and they did not get it!!! I was stunned at how closed-minded they were!

    Think about it…I wrote a review (Treo 600: Love at First Sight) which up until that point received over 25,000 separate page views from different readers. That means that if I persuaded 10% of the people who read my review to get a Treo that would mean ONE MILLION DOLLARS in extra revenue for Handspring. Hanspring never even thanked me for writing the article!?!? To add insult to injury, Jeff pissed all over my head???

    At the Treo launch event in San Francisco I had an interesting experience with Peter Skillman (Lead Handspring Industrial Designer). Peter and I were talking and this guy form ABC news comes up to Peter and starts attacking him for not having put a 320x320 screen on the Treo. Peter defended Handspring’s position for 5 minutes and the ABC guy was unrelenting.

    The ABC guy pulled out his iPaq and said: “I should be able to show people photos that look as good as this on my Treo 600!!!” I interrupted and defended Peter and Handspring by saying: “Look the PPC is a joke. I agree with you that the Treo having a 160x160 screen is the Achilles Heel of the Treo, but it is still a bazillion times better than carrying around a separate PPC, Phone, Camera. Not to mention you no longer have to use your stylus”

    A half an hour later Peter (Lead Handspring Industrial Designer) approached me and said: “You were right. Everything you said was right.” I said, “I know.” So far as I can tell, up until that moment the Lead Handspring ID missed the 160x160 issue.

    Silverado, I believe the supreme irony of the Treo 600 is that they went so far and did such an incredible job but stopped at the 99 yard line. I could literally write a book on why I believe this to be true, but it really does not matter.

    The way I look at it is the Treo 600 is a bazillion times better than the 270 or 300 and it is a sign of great things to come.

    Jake
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  14. #54  
    Jake:

    Given you "insider experience," I have to say I totally agree with you. I think that the future of the Handspring brand weighed just as heavily in the minds of those that brought us the Treo 600, as the Treo 600 did itself.

    That being said, I am hopeful for the future of the Treo line. If PalmOne continues to push for innovations in hardware, while maintaining their "Zen" philosophy regarding the user experience, we may see a whole new direction in the realm of personal computing. Specifically, I am referring to Palm's interest in licensing its software to laptop manufactures.

    Most people (read: not us!) use their computers for Word processing, internet, email, burning cds and listening to music, and precious little else. If Palm can meet these basic needs, while keeping prices affordable, they can open up a whole new market share.

    I don't think they will replace Microsoft anytime soon. But I will say this much. I have worked with desktops for so long, that when I got my Treo 300, my very first PDA, I was as amazed then as I am today with how much I can get done with such little complication. After all, what most users want is for their expensive toy to simply WORK. No fuss, no muss.

    The only other thing I will say is that I find I use my computer less and less everyday. With a foldout keyboard on my Treo, I eliminated my reliance on my laptop, as I do more than most with a PC, using nothing more than my good old Treo. And I have less problems then I ever did with my laptop and my desktop.

    Yes, the future looks bright indeed...



    BTW, what was the topic again? J/K.
  15. #55  
    Originally posted by JTREOB


    As far as a 320 x 320 screen being a big deal. the treo is a business tool not a gadget. i use it every day in my business, do you really think a 320 x 320 screen on a 2 x 2 screen is a big deal to me or those it's designed for?
    YES!!!! I absolutely believe that if you saw a Treo 600 next to a Treo 900 with a 480 x 320 screen that is 16 bit you would freak out.

    I'll give you an example. Let's say you need to go to the web to look up something on google or you want to read in this forum. Good luck with 160x160. Or since you are a business man. When you take a picture of a clients product with the Treo 600 the picture is almost not veiwable on the Treo 600. The list goes on and aon and on.

    Look no futher than the Sony UX-50 sceen which is available for sale now and has a 480x320 screen that is the same with as the Treo 600.

    If you want to see what a future Treo would look like with a 480x320 screen go to the preview of my upcoming article for TreoCentral:

    http://www.jakeehrlich.com/Review/Bu...oDashboard.htm

    Jake
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  16. #56  
    Originally posted by JakeE
    A half an hour later Peter (Lead Handspring Industrial Designer) approached me and said: “You were right. Everything you said was right.” I said, “I know.” So far as I can tell, up until that moment the Lead Handspring ID missed the 160x160 issue.
    Sorry Jake, I don't believe that last sentence for a moment. Every single one of us here thought about the screen the first time we heard about the Treo and you're saying that that was the first moment this person ever realized it's important? This defies logic. Don't tell me they are closed-minded. I think both sides, you and they, were doing the same thing: assuming you know enough to take into account most constraints and come out with a very good device that meets the major design goals and sells. If I had to pick between them and any one random person on this board, including you and me, I would pick them every time. It's easy to pick individual problems and dwell on them. It is far, far harder to start from nothing and build a very complex system that the majority of people consider a success.
  17. #57  
    Man, your design is exactly waht I wanted. However, according to your experience with Jeff and Peter, the only way for them to take your design is to sell it to them for $$$$$. They are too great to take free tips.
  18. #58  
    Originally posted by silverado

    Sorry Jake, I don't believe that last sentence for a moment. Every single one of us here thought about the screen the first time we heard about the Treo and you're saying that that was the first moment this person ever realized it's important? This defies logic. Don't tell me they are closed-minded. I think both sides, you and they, were doing the same thing: assuming you know enough to take into account most constraints and come out with a very good device that meets the major design goals and sells. If I had to pick between them and any one random person on this board, including you and me, I would pick them every time. It's easy to pick individual problems and dwell on them. It is far, far harder to start from nothing and build a very complex system that the majority of people consider a success.
    Silverado:

    First of all Handspring lied about the reason they went with the 160x160 screen. They said it was to conserve battery power. This was a lie.

    The reason they did not put a 320x320 screen was becasue they were running out of cash and they decided in their infinte wisdom that they did not want to risk their pension by adding a 320x320 screen.

    Silverado, how much money do you think it would have cost them to custom fabricate a 320x320 screen for the Treo 600? (This is not a rhetorical question)
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  19. #59  
    Originally posted by JakeE


    Silverado:

    First of all Handspring lied about the reason they went with the 160x160 screen. They said it was to conserve battery power. This was a lie.

    The reason they did not put a 320x320 screen was becasue they were running out of cash and they decided in their infinte wisdom that they did not want to risk their pension by adding a 320x320 screen.

    Silverado, how much money do you think it would have cost them to custom fabricate a 320x320 screen for the Treo 600? (This is not a rhetorical question)
    Man, calm down. You obviously are a fanatic on the subject... so instead of ripping on Handspring, why don't you start your own company or go work for them? You seem to think that they owe you something for writing that article.

    No, it doesn't have a 320 x 320 screen, coffee maker, blah blah blah. If you're the intellectual superior to the Handspring brain trust, go make the product and I'll buy it. If Jeff Hawkins is close-minded, you must be one heck of a visionary.

    Keep your pants on.
  20. #60  
    Originally posted by JakeE


    YES!!!! I absolutely believe that if you saw a Treo 600 next to a Treo 900 with a 480 x 320 screen that is 16 bit you would freak out.

    I'll give you an example. Let's say you need to go to the web to look up something on google or you want to read in this forum. Good luck with 160x160. Or since you are a business man. When you take a picture of a clients product with the Treo 600 the picture is almost not veiwable on the Treo 600. The list goes on and aon and on.

    Look no futher than the Sony UX-50 sceen which is available for sale now and has a 480x320 screen that is the same with as the Treo 600.

    If you want to see what a future Treo would look like with a 480x320 screen go to the preview of my upcoming article for TreoCentral:

    http://www.jakeehrlich.com/Review/Bu...oDashboard.htm

    Jake
    i can read this forum just fine from my 600. i have not had any problem reading text on this 600.as far as having to take pics. for business purposes, i would suggest a better camera prior to a better screen.

    there are price points at play here and for $399 the 600 is a damn good business tool when you pop on snappermail and a few other well designed business apps.

    if you feel you need the 480 x 320 screen and a camera that matches the screen quality then prepare to pay more. hs would need to sell these handhelds at the $600-700 range is my guess, and that's a very big turn off to the mass market, which has no doubt, and rightly so, been considered in the design of this unit,
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