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  1. #41  
    I must admit I am honestly puzzled by some of the people's reaction to their purchase of the Treo 600.

    What I don't understand is that hearing some of their priorities when picking the device, they pick: a) high resolution screen, b) web surfing c) camera, and d) game playing.

    I never touched a Treo 600 before I bought it, and I was pretty sure it wasn't going to do any of these terribly well. NO phone this size does. I don't think it's very likely to do so with the current state of technology and in this price range. Even the reviews that have already been out had stated these as weak points.

    Do you feel you were duped by advertising or sales representatives? I am seriously curious. I don't get where these expectations came from, and I'm bummed to hear that people don't like their phone. Was it more of a mistake, that you thought you could live we the limitations, but you actually couldn't? I guess I could understand that.
  2. #42  
    Originally posted by iJITSU
    I was referencing this and many other threads in which the same thing happened. I doubt you are in any position to determine how thick my skin is, however I'll leave you with this:
    Fair enough. I admit that might hav been presumptous of me. I do think you are not seeing the forest for the trees, however.

    Originally posted by iJITSU
    You responded rebuking me for pointing out that some people cannot refrain from bashing those who feel the same way they do about X (in this case the 600). Do I need to point out that on most threads there is going to be somebody who responds to that banter with a remark about the pointlessness of such behavior? So, If I should stay off fan forums because I can't resist responding to silly negative comments, perhaps you should "grow thicker skin" or stay off "fan" forums as well if you can't refrain from responding to the person who is responding to the negative banter, no? Remove the plank from your eye before you try to remove the speck from your brothers.

    All kidding aside, my point was that it's silly to take jabs at someone because they don't share your preferences. Take care.
    That logical is somewhat circular, but I see your point. Actually, I would not usually respond to comments like this, but I felt your comment was unusually literate and deserved a response.

    I got your point, and I agreed with the basic premise. However, you make it at the expense of several posters in this forum (and this particular thread) that have commented in a very useful fashion. Generalizing can be ugly. I think you minimize their contribution, and simply ignoring the others makes it all so much easier.

    I'm no expert at it. Sometimes I can't help feeding the trolls, either.
  3. #43  
    Originally posted by IanL
    Was it more of a mistake, that you thought you could live with the limitations, but you actually couldn't? I guess I could understand that.
    That about covers it for me, almost. The camera is a different matter. I suppose as far as the camera was concerned, I did think it was going to be better than it actually is. I wasn't expecting to shoot masterpieces with it. But initial photos I saw posted on the web seemed good. And knowing how good the cameras on other cell phones and pda's could be, I had expected the one on the Treo 600 to be on a par with those. But as pointed out in a prior post, it is far short of the mark.

    I think I could still live with all the other enumerated limitations, if only I could get my required use out of Blazer. With Blazer I honestly did not know what to expect. I'd only ever briefly surfed with it on a borrowed Treo 300. I've had my Hitachi only for a few months, and in that time I got reliant on web surfing through my pda phone. Prior to that, if you had asked me if web surfing was a priority for me back when I was eagerly awaiting the Treo 600's release, I would have said no. Now my answer is different.

    A lot has changed for me in the few months since I first joined this forum. I had to get the G1000 because I could no longer wait for the Treo 600, and in that time, the G1000 has spoiled me a bit.

    But there is MUCH to be said in favor of what the Treo 600 is and does. It was designed for a certain kind of usage and if my circumstances ever put me back into favoring that sort of usage, I would be pleased to get one. It's not like I think it stinks. My overall preliminary impression is that it suits its intended purpose pretty well.

    I think where disappointment sets in for anyone, is in areas where there seems to have been some skimping and corner-cutting. It is only natural to note what is available on other devices running at a similar cost, and wonder why the 600 wasn't cobbled together of these wondrous parts.

    Sadly, I am sure it is getting quite tiresome for happy Treo owners to constantly hear about the cut corners and skimped items. Unfortunately other people very new to discovering the 600 may not know what the shortcomings are, and hopefully topics like this will be illuminating to them, and not irksome.
  4. #44  
    Didja ever consider trying another browser? Blazer ain't the only game in town just because it is the one that comes w/the Treo!
  5. iJITSU's Avatar
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    #45  
    Originally posted by IanL

    Fair enough. I admit that might hav been presumptous of me. I do think you are not seeing the forest for the trees, however.


    That logical is somewhat circular, but I see your point. Actually, I would not usually respond to comments like this, but I felt your comment was unusually literate and deserved a response.

    I got your point, and I agreed with the basic premise. However, you make it at the expense of several posters in this forum (and this particular thread) that have commented in a very useful fashion. Generalizing can be ugly. I think you minimize their contribution, and simply ignoring the others makes it all so much easier.

    I'm no expert at it. Sometimes I can't help feeding the trolls, either.
    I was addressing the negative comments, so acknowledgment of the positive comments is neither required nor relevant. The logic may appear to be circular, but in fact it is the nature of the hypocrisy that is circular, so it may be a case of you not seeing the forest for the trees. In remarking about the negative comments I did no service, good or bad, to those that did not comment negatively as my post was directly addressing negative comments and by nature of their posts they would have been excluded. Thought that was obvious.

    That said (or typed as it were ), I agree that not everyone responded with negative comments. In fact, most people posting on this board do not bother with that type of behavior. The reason I responded to your post was to point out that if you expect me to ignore the negative comments that I responded to I should expect you to ignore my musings about those comments. In fact, you yourself stated that, "I think you minimize their contribution, and simply ignoring the others makes it all so much easier." So by responding to my post, according to your logic, you've minimized the contributions of others in this thread and would have been better off ignoring me. In short, physician heal thyself.
    Lastly, I'm not sure if your comment regarding feeding trolls was pointed at me, but I don't think anything in my behavior is troll-like. I don't have any interest in trolling, pissing contests, or tearing people down. I simply took note of an interesting behavior in which some people are compelled to defend their preference in pda or take jabs at those who have taken a different path. Take care.
  6. #46  
    Originally posted by iJITSU


    I was addressing the negative comments, so acknowledgment of the positive comments is neither required nor relevant. The logic may appear to be circular, but in fact it is the nature of the hypocrisy that is circular, so it may be a case of you not seeing the forest for the trees. In remarking about the negative comments I did no service, good or bad, to those that did not comment negatively as my post was directly addressing negative comments and by nature of their posts they would have been excluded. Thought that was obvious.

    That said (or typed as it were ), I agree that not everyone responded with negative comments. In fact, most people posting on this board do not bother with that type of behavior. The reason I responded to your post was to point out that if you expect me to ignore the negative comments that I responded to I should expect you to ignore my musings about those comments. In fact, you yourself stated that, "I think you minimize their contribution, and simply ignoring the others makes it all so much easier." So by responding to my post, according to your logic, you've minimized the contributions of others in this thread and would have been better off ignoring me. In short, physician heal thyself.
    Lastly, I'm not sure if your comment regarding feeding trolls was pointed at me, but I don't think anything in my behavior is troll-like. I don't have any interest in trolling, pissing contests, or tearing people down. I simply took note of an interesting behavior in which some people are compelled to defend their preference in pda or take jabs at those who have taken a different path. Take care.
    No, the last comment wasn't referring to you, but the feeding of trolls in general. It was not a personal attack. I'm done.
  7. #47  
    Originally posted by monkeywithacold
    That about covers it for me, almost. The camera is a different matter. I suppose as far as the camera was concerned, I did think it was going to be better than it actually is. I wasn't expecting to shoot masterpieces with it. But initial photos I saw posted on the web seemed good. And knowing how good the cameras on other cell phones and pda's could be, I had expected the one on the Treo 600 to be on a par with those. But as pointed out in a prior post, it is far short of the mark.

    I think I could still live with all the other enumerated limitations, if only I could get my required use out of Blazer. With Blazer I honestly did not know what to expect. I'd only ever briefly surfed with it on a borrowed Treo 300. I've had my Hitachi only for a few months, and in that time I got reliant on web surfing through my pda phone. Prior to that, if you had asked me if web surfing was a priority for me back when I was eagerly awaiting the Treo 600's release, I would have said no. Now my answer is different.

    A lot has changed for me in the few months since I first joined this forum. I had to get the G1000 because I could no longer wait for the Treo 600, and in that time, the G1000 has spoiled me a bit.

    But there is MUCH to be said in favor of what the Treo 600 is and does. It was designed for a certain kind of usage and if my circumstances ever put me back into favoring that sort of usage, I would be pleased to get one. It's not like I think it stinks. My overall preliminary impression is that it suits its intended purpose pretty well.

    I think where disappointment sets in for anyone, is in areas where there seems to have been some skimping and corner-cutting. It is only natural to note what is available on other devices running at a similar cost, and wonder why the 600 wasn't cobbled together of these wondrous parts.
    That explains a lot, and it's kind of what I expected. I agree with you, I do think the Treo does has a certain usage pattern that is a "sweet spot". I can easily see how some people's needs or expectations could outstrip that pattern.

    I'm pretty happy with it so far, mainly because I wanted a phone first, Palm second, Email reader third, and web browser forth. MP3 player and camera is farther down the list. I've been waiting for this form factor to arrive. I wanted something I could fit in my pocket to replace my current pocket-friendly phone. Maybe I should make it a point to stay away from larger-screened PDAs, eh? My pattern migh be shifted, too?

    I could also see how people could get caught up in the excitement and hype. Lots of PDA forums have been buzzing about this phone for months now, and the media reviews have been pretty positive.

    That said, I'm not really sure what the alternatives are, other that a) waiting for the "next" super-phone and hope it nails it, or b) do the bluetooth PDA-and-phone, which is totally unappetizing to me personally. The landscape might change slightly when a bluetooth card becomes available for the 600. I'm sure some people will come up with some interesting uses for it.

    I think the next few phones in the same form factor are going to have the same perceived limitations as the Treo, but we'll see I guess. That's mainly because I consider most of these issues as design tradeoffs for the size, not explicit errors. The camera quality I would certainly would not put into this category, though, since other people seem to have used better cameras on similar phones. Personally, I haven't used them, and it's not important to me. <shrug>
    Originally posted by monkeywithacold
    Sadly, I am sure it is getting quite tiresome for happy Treo owners to constantly hear about the cut corners and skimped items.
    I'm sure that's the source of some of the more "colorful" responses.
    Originally posted by monkeywithacold
    Unfortunately other people very new to discovering the 600 may not know what the shortcomings are, and hopefully topics like this will be illuminating to them, and not irksome.
    We can only hope.
  8. iJITSU's Avatar
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    #48  
    Originally posted by IanL

    No, the last comment wasn't referring to you, but the feeding of trolls in general. It was not a personal attack. I'm done.
    That's cool. I wasn't sure who you were referring to. Take care, Ian.

    D
  9. #49  
    Originally posted by IanL


    I'm sorry, I have to disagree with this. If you read from the top, you'll see several posters that have VERY balanced responses to the original post. The first two responses said they were sorry for his dissatisfaction, for christ's sake! TreoTheo's comment was probably the most insightful comment in this whole thread, I suggest you go back and read it again.

    There were only a couple of posters that were strongly negative. Much of the flaming started when tree007 pretty much said that people would laugh at you if you used a Treo at a party. If that's not flamebait, I don't know what is!

    I too wish people were never rude and thought before they posted, but you need a grow thicker skin, too. Learn to filter out the people that aren't offering anything useful. Or stay off "fan" forums. They call them fans for a reason.
    If you want flaming, I'll give it to you: You're a freak. That wasn't "flaming", "flamebait", whatever you want to call it. It's my opinion, and people do think the Treo's are geek phones. So what? I carry one, I just don't talk into it. If you want to, I don't care. If you want to be a geek, I still don't care. In fact, you're the only one that took my comments that harshly.

    I can't believe you're telling anyone else to "grow thicker skin". Start with yourself or do us all a favor and beat it.
  10. iJITSU's Avatar
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    #50  
    Originally posted by IanL


    I'm pretty happy with it so far, mainly because I wanted a phone first, Palm second, Email reader third, and web browser forth. MP3 player and camera is farther down the list. I've been waiting for this form factor to arrive. I wanted something I could fit in my pocket to replace my current pocket-friendly phone.
    Questions: What pda did you use prior? What's your feeling on the screen? I've seen it in person and know that it's very bright, but I didn't get enough time with it to determine how good the screen actually is for general use (I know it won't be great for video or photos at 160x160) like PIM, email, etc.
  11. #51  
    Let's settle down people and keep this thread on topic with discussion of what we don't like about the Treo 600.

    Just to throw in my 2 cents about the "purpose" of this forum. I don't view it as a forum of fans where if you don't have anything nice to say about the Treo, you shouldn't say anything at all. This is a community focused on the Treo, good and bad. At least that's how I view it. Now, if someone comes in here and posts anonymously (not sure if that's possible) or registers and makes their first post a dig about the Treo in general and how we should all buy Microsoft Smartphones, then I'd be in favor of kicking the guy out. But for those of us who have been around a while and are disappointed with the Treo 600 either because of the features it offers (or doesn't) or because they bought it and were unhappy about something, I say bring it on. If all there were on this forum were a bunch of posts proclaiming how wonderful the Treo was exactly as it is, it would be a rather boring place, IMO.

    Originally posted by IanL
    I'm pretty happy with it so far, mainly because I wanted a phone first, Palm second, Email reader third, and web browser forth. MP3 player and camera is farther down the list.
    ...
    That said, I'm not really sure what the alternatives are, other that a) waiting for the "next" super-phone and hope it nails it, or b) do the bluetooth PDA-and-phone, which is totally unappetizing to me personally.
    You specified email reading and put MP3 playing farther down the list. As such, the Nokia 3650 which can be had for free might be one such device which already meets your needs and can be had for free.

    Personally, I want something with a really comfortable thumbboard, a screen resolution capable of doing a decent job interpreting sites that don't have mobile-friendly versions on occasion, a good camera, and MP3. No such thing exists right now. My dream device would be a physically shorter (when in phone mode) version of the old Nokia Communicator with CDMA or GPRS and a somewhat smaller keyboard designed for thumb-typing. The technology is available today, it's just that no one has done it.

    The Danger Hiptop/Sidekick is another decent example. The screen res is lower than I'd like, but possibly serviceable, and the OS isn't really capable of doing the type of processing I'd like. The camera is a dongle thingy which takes pretty lousy photos, too. What's good about it is that the OS/GUI was designed from the ground up for its landscape screen, thumbboard and scroll wheel. It has no touch-screen so you can do everything without tapping on the screen (though Ideally, I'd like a touchscreen too, as I'd like to be able to edit photos and do other things where a touchscreen can be advantageous).

    For two-part solutions, the Sony UX40/50 comes very close but the lack integration of the thumbboard and scroll wheel (which ought to be more of a D-Pad) into the OS means you have to tap on the screen far too often. It's also expensive and there's a bunch of other smaller issues about it I dislike.

    The bottom line for me is that I like the Palm OS and I like having a touchscreen. I like that Handspring has done a lot of work integrating the thumbboard and D-Pad into the OS so that you can do most stuff without taking your thumbs off of the thumbboard, though. What I don't like is the lousy camera, small thumbboard, and small low-res screen. Take all of that's currently good about it and add in the good stuff I want and you'll have something like the mockup I made a while ago:
    http://hipnetic.com/geek/treo_new2.gif

    It would be possible to do this with today's technology and, I'd argue, could be easily sold for $600 or less. It would be bigger than the new Treo 600 but, as you can see in my mockup, it would not be huge by any means.

    Would this meet everyone's needs? Clearly not. There's no such thing as one size fits all. For people demanding a small phone-like device without the need to do much text input or the types of things where a high-res screen would make a huge difference, the current Treo 600 (or several other options if a thumbboard isn't important) are available. My point has simply been that the Handspring did some great stuff to tweak the current Palm OS for thumbboard and D-Pad use and I'd like to see that effort leveraged for my dream device. I suspect that there's a good number of people who would line up to buy it, but maybe that's wishful thinking.

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  12. #52  
    Originally posted by IanL
    I must admit I am honestly puzzled by some of the people's reaction to their purchase of the Treo 600.

    What I don't understand is that hearing some of their priorities when picking the device, they pick: a) high resolution screen, b) web surfing c) camera, and d) game playing.

    I never touched a Treo 600 before I bought it, and I was pretty sure it wasn't going to do any of these terribly well. NO phone this size does. I don't think it's very likely to do so with the current state of technology and in this price range. Even the reviews that have already been out had stated these as weak points.

    Do you feel you were duped by advertising or sales representatives? I am seriously curious. I don't get where these expectations came from, and I'm bummed to hear that people don't like their phone. Was it more of a mistake, that you thought you could live we the limitations, but you actually couldn't? I guess I could understand that.
  13. #53  
    Originally posted by iJITSU

    Questions: What pda did you use prior? What's your feeling on the screen? I've seen it in person and know that it's very bright, but I didn't get enough time with it to determine how good the screen actually is for general use (I know it won't be great for video or photos at 160x160) like PIM, email, etc.
    My first was a PalmPilot 5000, but that was a long time ago! My last PDA was a Palm m515 (it as a gift), so I'm more or less used to to the 160x160 screen, though the 515 screen is also very bright. I found I didn't use it very much, though, because I didn't like to carry it and my phone everywhere. I was also always paranoid about leaving it sitting somewhere. In the summertime, with no coat, it was a drag.

    I have messed with a lot of different devices, though. There are a lot of different handhelds around our office, and I've spent some time with a number of them, including a bunch of the different Windows devices, a Zire 71 and even a Danger Sidekick (although only the B&W one).

    As far as the 600 screen size goes, if the navigation choices were more limited, I would be frustrated by it. But I've found it to be the opposite. Now keep in mind, I've only been using it for two days now, so this is still early. I really like the 5-way navigation, and the fact that you can re-map keys to different apps, plus the favorites. I still find myself switching back and forth between the stylus and the keyboard, but I haven't learned many of the power tricks yet. Contact lookups are very fast with the keyboard. There's enough screen size to write and read email messages, and I just set up Verichat with no problem.

    One time I did notice the low res screen in particular -- I was looking up local traffic on a page. The browser shrinks the image down, but then I could barely see the detail in traffic image. I switched to non-scaled view, but then I needed to scroll around to "find" the image on the screen. It worked, but it wasn't convenient. If the screen had been 320x320, I might not have same problem. I can't say for sure, as I haven't seen the same page on such a screen. I think I'll look at it on a iPaq on Monday in the office. I suppose a broswer with the ability to set the percentage scaling of the images would also be a potential solution. That may already exist and I don't know it. It would also be nice if you could bookmark the location of the scrollbars with the bookmark of the page. The 5-way does make scrolling dead easy, though.

    I'm still so much in the "wow, I can't believe I can do all this on such a tiny device" phase that I probably need a little more time to evaluate the question properly. The same is probably true for people coming at it from the other direction.
  14. #54  
    Originally posted by IanL

    I've been waiting for this form factor to arrive. I wanted something I could fit in my pocket to replace my current pocket-friendly phone. Maybe I should make it a point to stay away from larger-screened PDAs, eh? My pattern migh be shifted, too?

    LOL! I kind of doubt your pattern will be shifted. I think unless the Treo 600 turns out to be very trouble prone, it's going to hit the sweet spot for a lot of folks. There is a lot to be said for pocketability, after all. Say I, typing this while likely to miss a call because I left my Hitachi lying around here somewhere when I last set it down to take out the trash.
  15. #55  
    you can read all you want about a product, any product, but until you possess it, evaluate it with your own criteria one never knows for sure.

    camera ok. what does that mean? key board is smaller but workable. Really? says who.

    if palmmd isn't satisfied he should return it. should he have known better? i think not. very few have not returned items due to disappointment.

    as far as this board, the posters are 360 on every feature of this handheld. some say the camera good, some say it stinks. some think the key board's nice, some can't stand it. and on and on and on.
    Last edited by JTREOB; 10/18/2003 at 03:46 PM.
  16. #56  
    Originally posted by Scott R

    You specified email reading and put MP3 playing farther down the list. As such, the Nokia 3650 which can be had for free might be one such device which already meets your needs and can be had for free.
    Well, not quite. I specified a Palm as well, which the Nokia is not. And I should have specified an email client, not just a reader. To get more specific, I should have put the thumbboard also on the list, thanks for bringing it up. I actually consider it necessary, as part of the function as an email and IM client, though I'm sure some would disagree. That's fine.

    I actually played with the 3650 a little bit in the store. It's a nice phone, and the Symbian is pretty slick. But I found it was a little more of a phone than a PDA than I wanted. And once I tried the thumbboard on a Treo 300 and a Danger Sidekick, I was sold on it.

    I would have been fine to pick a Windows-based device too, but there is no comparable device yet (that I know of), and I was already reasonably comfortable with the PalmOS.
  17. #57  
    Originally posted by JTREOB
    you can read all you want about a product, any product, but until you possess it, evaluate it with your own criteria one never knows. camera ok. what does that mean? key board is smaller but workable. Really? says who.

    if palmmd isn't satisfied he should return it. should he have known better? i think not.

    the posters are 360 on every feature of this handheld. some say the camera good, some say it stinks. some think the key board nice, some can't stand it. and on and on and on.
    Who said they camera is good? I was pretty sure that was something we could all agree on.

    I'm joking. I think it stinks too, but I don't really care very much.

    I will also certainly agree that much of this is quite subjective and requirement-oriented.
  18. #58  
    Originally posted by Scott R
    The technology is available today, it's just that no one has done it....
    ...
    My point has simply been that the Handspring did some great stuff to tweak the current Palm OS for thumbboard and D-Pad use and I'd like to see that effort leveraged for my dream device. I suspect that there's a good number of people who would line up to buy it, but maybe that's wishful thinking.

    Scott
    You've hit the nail right on the head. There is a lot of excellent technology available today but so far all the releases that have actually made it to market so far have been very slight advances on what has already come before, or what all the competition has been developing. I certainly have not yet seen or seen signs of a release quite like your mock-up running the Palm OS.
  19. #59  
    Originally posted by conflagrare


    true... but let me just bring this into perspective for you...

    if 10 is a normal digital camera...
    5 would be a camera phone like nokia 3650...
    and the Treo 600's camera would be about a 2.

    Fair enough. I've seen some phones with a camera and a flash and they took pretty decent pictures. Ofcourse, these phones had no PDA features and they didn't have any of the other features of the Treo600. What gets me about the disapointment a lot of people have about the camera is every review of this phone I saw said the camera is 'not great quality but acceptable for taking the occasional snapshot'. I think one review labeled the camera as a 'borderline novelty'. I know a lot of people on this forum read the reviews. After I noticed a pattern in the reviews that the camera wasn't so great, I had to make a decision if that was enough of a negative to not buy the phone. As Mister Brady told Greg Brady....caveat emptor....let the buyer beware.
    Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
  20. #60  
    Regarding the camera, if you can understand its limitations you can produce some acceptable photos. I posted a link under a thread I titled "Treo 600 photos" but now I realize some might think that it is just more pix OF the Treo 600 instead of pix taken WITH the camera.

    People shouldn't give up on this camera too easily without giving it a chance. And considering this is a converged pda/phone its quite a feature.

    http://www.wireless-doc.com/treocam.htm
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