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  1. #21  
    PalmMD, I think the entire reason Palm is acquiring Handspring would have to be the Treo. Handspring had nothing else to offer except the Treo brand, technology, and trademark. I don't think you have to worry about Palm dumping the Treo 600, the Treo name, or the smartphone field.

    Hopefully Palm does dump the so limited as to be annoying phone functions of the Tungsten W and their reluctance to make devices that can work on the networks of more then one wireless provider.

    You can't really compare Dell PDAs and the Treo when it comes to price. Dell being a large company that profits from revenue in its other business areas can afford to lose money in an effort to take marketshare and break into a new area. Dell knows that the PDA/Converged Device/Smartphone area will be one that will make money at some point when they can start raising prices and demanding a premium for the Dell trademark being stamped on a device. They can afford to sell at either a loss or at a very low margin.

    Look at the Palm Zire. I seem to remember that Palm wasn't make more then a few pennies on the device so that they could introduce handhelds to more people. When you sell at an attractive price point you'll pull in people that wouldn't normally buy your product. With the Treo moving to Palm there should be a range of Treo devices released so that they cover the spectrum of introductory devices all the way up to power user smartphones.
  2. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #22  
    Claiming Dell is not in the PDA game to make money is a bit like claiming Handspring is going to make money.
  3. njchris's Avatar
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    #23  
    Originally posted by purpleX
    Claiming Dell is not in the PDA game to make money is a bit like claiming Handspring is going to make money.
    You've twisted his words. That's not what he said.
  4. purpleY
    purpleY's Avatar
    #24  
    Originally posted by purpleX
    Claiming Dell is not in the PDA game to make money is a bit like claiming Handspring is going to make money.
    My evil twin meant to say:

    "While Dell surely has quite a bit of resources at its disposal, it is in its best interest to have every initiative make as much money as possible. It is possible that it is using its PDAs as loss leaders in order to make larger sales, for instance the new bundle where they give away a PDA with the purchase of a computer system.

    And once again let me reiterate my opinion that Handspring is not my favorite company and therefore the Treo 600 is not my favorite phone."


    ------------------------

    translation provided by purpleY
  5. #25  
    haha ... "purple y", i like it :-)
  6. #26  
    Actually Purple Y, thats not what PurpleX said.

    I think I can fairly well sum up PurpleX in the following manner, "nanny nanny boo boo, stick your head in poo poo". Of course thats only paraphrasing her response.

    I at no point said that Dell only wanted to lose money. I said that Dell had the money to take the long view and it could afford to sell with very low to no margin in order to build a customer base that they can exploit in the future.

    Think about how they got to their current position. They sold just about the cheapest box PCs out there through mail order in the beginning. Now you pay a premium to have the dell moniker on Dell products because they have established a brand. Its a brand that can tack on a healthy chunck of change to a product's price.
  7.    #27  
    Strange I did not realize I was paying extra for the Dell moniker. It seems everytime I price anything across multiple vendors, Dell tends to be one of the best if not the best price point.

    I know this laptop I am typing on cost me $900 and I could not find any other vendor selling the same spec laptop for less than $1400 at the time.

    A Phone like the Nokia 3650 can be had for free with new/customer vendor discounts pretty often. I highly doubt the hardware for the Treo 600 costs $500 more than this phone.

    Perhaps Handspring just doesnt have the ability to negotiate a decent deal with Sprint or the other carriers. The Treo 600 is a nice enough phone to break into the mainstream.
  8. #28  
    Originally posted by Dusk
    A Phone like the Nokia 3650 can be had for free with new/customer vendor discounts pretty often. I highly doubt the hardware for the Treo 600 costs $500 more than this phone.
    Dusk. The Nokia 3650 is normally $399 without a plan. If you get the phone with a plan from AT&T you get it for $299. If you sign up for a 2Yr AT&T contract, and trade in a phone, then you can get the phone for free, or for $50 with a 1 Yr contract. I seriously doubt that Nokia is ponying up most of that money (if any) and I bet that AT&T is providing most of the rebates. Also AT&T is not paying that much for the phone as they are buying in bulk and getting deep discounts because Nokia is making more money from AT&T on the network infrastructure to support the phones. AT&T's service is the most expensive that I can find so they are going to make their money on the service. Each carrier prices the phones different, but they all probably get them at close to the same price from the manufacturer.

    Is their more in the Treo 600 to justify a $100 premium over the list of the 3650? Yes since it will have a more powerful processor, more memory, more robust/suported OS, more expansion capability (SDIO), and a touchscreen (this would eat up a fair amount of that $100 just by itself for a color touchscreen), and over twice the battery capacity. Can Handspring discount it like Nokia does the 3650? Not anywhere near the discount percentage since they do build either CDMA or GSM infrastructure and their only other products are pure PDA's.

    If the Treo 600 is going to be discounted in the first year it is out, then the carriers are the ones that will be doing the discounting and locking people into contracts in the process. Handspring will only be able to discount the units when sales start to drop, compoenents get cheaper, etc. like what happened with the 270/300.

    So if (when) the Treo 600 isn't discounted, don't blame HS, blame the carriers since they are the ones that subsidize the phones to get the service contracts.
  9.    #29  
    Why is it that you can get the Nokia 3650 subsidized from $399 down to free and yet getting the Treo 600 subsidized down to $150-$250 is outrageous.

    Dont tell me the phone maker has nothing whatsoever to do with how the carriers subsidize phones. If Handspring cannot get a good deal with the carriers, then that is a failure on their part.

    I am not here really to debate IF carriers and vendors subsidize phones. There is absolutely no doubt that they do. I have a Sony Ericson T610 camera/bluetooth phone right now that they paid me $50 to take.

    I just wanted to hear other people thoughts on what Handspring SHOULD do to make this thing a hit.
  10. #30  
    it already is a hit...there are soo many people anticipating it regardless of price
    Treo 300, Treo 600 - Sprint

    I dream in code and TCP/IP sequence numbers.
  11. #31  
    Nobody said that you couldn't get a Treo 600 subsidized down to $150 to $200, but the carriers should subsidize, not HS.

    Like I said Nokia can discout the phones more because they sell the network infrastructure in addition to the phones. I have not seen a Handspring multiplexer, or any other cell base station gear that they brand. Handspring and Palm have to make money on the phone, Nokia can eat more on the phone if they are sell plenty of GSM gear to AT&T on their GSM rollout.

    I am sure that if they don't sell at $500 the price will come down. But given the reviews and enthusiasm it will probably take a while for supply to exceed demand and for the price to start to drop. It is simple economics to sell a unit for as much as possible while there is high demand and limited supply. Given the price of the other smartphone offerings out there now they could have sold it for more initially.

    Handspring already has four carriers (Orange, Sprint, Cingulair, and T-Mobile) that are going to carry the phone and it sounds like a lot more carriers may carry it in the near future. How many other manufacturers have a CDMA and GSM version of a phone that gets released by 4 seperate carriers in a month? They are going to have huge international market penetration into the GSM world and have a foothold in the US CDMA market to. This is probably one of the smartest phone, and definetly smartphone launches that has been done.
  12. #32  
    I agree w/ Dusk. the problem is that I suspect the carriers' strangle hold on "certifying" or "supporting" a new handset is their way of sqeezing the manufacturers to get in the distribution channel for the gear.

    I have no doubt that in spite of the subsidies, the carriers make money selling handsets. If the cellular industry were treated the same as wireline, we'd simply publish the specs and let the consumer buy what he wants and plug it into the RJ-11 jack.

    Problem is the FCC ain't willing to do it.

    We all know of or have heard of somebody running an unlocked Treo on a network that technically does not support it (I used mine in Australia last year and nobody there had even seen a Treo yet). The problem is not technical, but business.

    Nope we're at the mercy of the carriers. That's why Verizon is being barred by our friends at Sprint. If we could decouple the network from the handset like has happened in wireline, equipment prices would drop and there would be more choice in the marketplace. I have no doubt that the carriers would want to raise rates, but then we'd know what's subsidizing what, wouldn't we? Maybe we're being lied to when it comes to the contracts we sign when getting new equipment. I don't know anybody who hasn't signed to new contract when upgrading.

    Something to think about.
  13. #33  
    Anything with enough built up excitement will be considered a success, but until the phone hits the market, is used and users repsond with their real world comments it is not a success. Don't get me wrong I went PPC Smartphone ONLY because I couldn't get a decent Palm SmartPhone and VzW carries a lame selection. I am anxiously awaiting its release and I want to see how it holds up. I may sell my I700 and buy a T600 but not if a HiRes will be out in 3-6 months, I can wait for that. The only fear I have is PalmOne messing the Treo up once they own the company.
  14. #34  
    Originally posted by Dusk
    Why is it that you can get the Nokia 3650 subsidized from $399 down to free and yet getting the Treo 600 subsidized down to $150-$250 is outrageous.

    Dont tell me the phone maker has nothing whatsoever to do with how the carriers subsidize phones. If Handspring cannot get a good deal with the carriers, then that is a failure on their part.

    I am not here really to debate IF carriers and vendors subsidize phones. There is absolutely no doubt that they do. I have a Sony Ericson T610 camera/bluetooth phone right now that they paid me $50 to take.

    I just wanted to hear other people thoughts on what Handspring SHOULD do to make this thing a hit.
    Dude... Nokia 3650 has been out for a long time... they consider it an "old model" in HK. Don't forget, Asia got their hands on the 3650 long before the states did. When Nokia 3650 first came out, I believe it was $450, which is not too far off from Treo600. Go ahead and wait a year or 2... by then, you could get a Treo 600 for free with a 3 year contract.
  15.    #35  
    Conflagrare you are ignoring the fact that I got my Sony Ericson T610 for negative $50. Thats right, they paid me to take this sweet phone (Actually for my wife since I have a Treo 300). I got it within a month or 2 of its rollout. Still looking for a decent case for this thing because it is so new.

    So once again I prove your comments about carrier subsidizing irrelevant... And once again I say I have no interest discussing whether the sky is blue or not with you.

    I want to hear thoughts on the marketplace for these phones and what HAndspring can do to maximize the success of this phone.
  16. #36  
    Originally posted by Dusk
    Conflagrare you are ignoring the fact that I got my Sony Ericson T610 for negative $50. Thats right, they paid me to take this sweet phone (Actually for my wife since I have a Treo 300). I got it within a month or 2 of its rollout. Still looking for a decent case for this thing because it is so new.

    So once again I prove your comments about carrier subsidizing irrelevant... And once again I say I have no interest discussing whether the sky is blue or not with you.

    I want to hear thoughts on the marketplace for these phones and what HAndspring can do to maximize the success of this phone.
    You got the phone that cheap because of subsidizing and rebates, so I don't see how you can say it is irrelevant.

    People who get free phones aren't going to show brand loyality, they are likely just going to try to get another free phone when they want a new one.

    It seems that with all of the excitement that Handspring has been able to generate with this new phone, that they are doing the right things to make is successful. I have business associated who are talking about it and saying that they want it as soon as it comes out. These same individuals were dissing the Treo 300 when it came out due to the size and features of the box.

    I have no problem with HS/Palm making money on the product, and certainly don't expect to get it for free or with heavy discounts. The Treo 300 would have sold more, but I know that the form factor was the major killer for me. The Treo 600 has fixed all of the issues that I had with the 300 and I feel that it is the best smartphone that will be available and at $500, is significantly cheaper than all similar and even inferior products available today.
  17. #37  
    If a product is so subsidized that neither the mfg. or sell makes any real money (phone service doesn't count) then how can we expect them to (a) invest in new technologies and features (b) stay in business and (c) build something this time that will actually not break every other day. Profit is good and key to a sound business, but price gouging is just a way to go out of business fast.
  18.    #38  
    Inichols I am saying Cariers do subsidize pretty agressively not that they dont. Conflagrare is saying they only do it on old phones. I am saying it is a common pratice even on new ones and I have the proof in my hand.

    At no point do I say they should sell it for a loss or make no money. I just believe that they can sell it for cheaper than $500 ( end customer price), and make a killing on it on volume sales. This would also help them get market penetration and become a name in the phone space.

    I do not know all the behind the scenes numbers and never claimed that I do. Maybe they have some huge hidden costs or maybe none of the cariers will give them a decent deal regardless of thier pitch. Or maybe they are massively inneficient and have incompetent business dealings with the phone service companies. I just dont know.
  19. #39  
    Dusk. Some people have posted that Sprint is going to seel the Treo for $399 with a new contract, $550 without. I am going to check with Sprint and see if I extend an existing contract, or switch to a new contract, if they will extend the discount. I have heard that if your contract is about up, they will usually allow you to do this to relock you into a new contract and keep your business. Supposedly HS is going to offer a $100 discount for existing treo owners, but I doubt that you will be able to get both.

    I too want to get the best deal, just don't want HS to not make money in the process so they stay in business and can keep up the great R&D.
  20. #40  
    == "...A lot of people don't want to spend $300 on a phone just
    == because it's in color...They want something that's cheap and
    == easy to carry and that won't break if they drop it..."

    -- http://www.amtddj.inlumen.com/bin/dj...aebqLqWmdq2ote
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