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  1. #61  
    Hi all...

    Notice we always have been harping abt the issue of the screen under the sunlight... and all the sample pics we got are *text based*

    If it's not too much to ask, could BleedingEdge install some pic program like Handstory and show us the resolution of the screen... in the sun, in shade, hi-res (if they have), 12 bit, 16 bit, whatever...

    Thanks!

  2.    #62  
    Originally posted by ansmania
    Hi all...

    Notice we always have been harping abt the issue of the screen under the sunlight... and all the sample pics we got are *text based*

    If it's not too much to ask, could BleedingEdge install some pic program like Handstory and show us the resolution of the screen... in the sun, in shade, hi-res (if they have), 12 bit, 16 bit, whatever...

    Thanks!

    Will try find some time this weekend. Incidentally, how would installing a graphics program help with the clarity in Sunlight? I'm not really technical, but it doesn't sound logical ...
  3. #63  
    Originally posted by BleedingEdge


    Will try find some time this weekend. Incidentally, how would installing a graphics program help with the clarity in Sunlight? I'm not really technical, but it doesn't sound logical ...
    Nope... with installing this software, it won't improve the quality of the screen... but we will be able to see the quality of the screen and if the picture is "acceptable" in the 12 bit they are giving us...

  4. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #64  
    Have you ever see m130? Well it's the same, except slightly brighter.
  5. #65  
    Well, I just went by Handspring with a Zire 71 (stole gfunkmagic's idea).

    I compared the screen on an employee's 600 to my 300 and the Zire.

    I sure hope the 600 the guy had was one of those pre-production units. IMO, the 600's screen was the worst of the three. Even my 300 was more visible.

    This is not the experience I had last week, when I held a different employee's 600. The screen was much better on that unit.
    Or, maybe last week I smoked some grass I didn't know about...
  6. #66  
    Well said, Ares. You hit the nail on the head.

    BleedingEdge, any chance you can get some sample photos taken with the Treo 600's camera uploaded somewhere? If you can get some comparison shots with the XDA II and any other "known entity" PDAs, smartphones, or digital cameras, that would be even better. I was worried that the built-in camera might stink. As you (or someone) said, the Nokia 3650's built-in camera is one of the best out there and that really isn't saying much. I think the 3650's camera is "acceptable" for a camera built into a smartphone, but considering that the 3650 has been out for a long while now, is it really too much to ask for one of these more recent smartphones to have an even better camera?

    Sample images I've seen from the Hitachi G1000 and Samsung PPC phone sold by Verizon (forget the model number off-hand) were really awful, BTW.

    Is this really rocket science?

    At the risk of sounding anti-Palm on a Palm-centric forum here, I really think that Nokia could have a great device on their hands if they simply modified their current 3650 to offer a Treo-esque thumbboard and stereo audio (for MP3s). The older 7650 (of which the 3650 is based) already had stereo out, and they've been fooling around with some thumbboard ideas lately, so this should be a really easy mod for them.

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  7. #67  
    Is there ANY color device, that's not reflective tft, that can be seen outdoors, especially in direct sunlight? I've never seen one, but maybe someone here has?
  8.    #68  
    Originally posted by Scott R
    Well said, Ares. You hit the nail on the head.

    BleedingEdge, any chance you can get some sample photos taken with the Treo 600's camera uploaded somewhere? If you can get some comparison shots with the XDA II and any other "known entity" PDAs, smartphones, or digital cameras, that would be even better. I was worried that the built-in camera might stink. As you (or someone) said, the Nokia 3650's built-in camera is one of the best out there and that really isn't saying much. I think the 3650's camera is "acceptable" for a camera built into a smartphone, but considering that the 3650 has been out for a long while now, is it really too much to ask for one of these more recent smartphones to have an even better camera?

    Sample images I've seen from the Hitachi G1000 and Samsung PPC phone sold by Verizon (forget the model number off-hand) were really awful, BTW.

    Is this really rocket science?

    At the risk of sounding anti-Palm on a Palm-centric forum here, I really think that Nokia could have a great device on their hands if they simply modified their current 3650 to offer a Treo-esque thumbboard and stereo audio (for MP3s). The older 7650 (of which the 3650 is based) already had stereo out, and they've been fooling around with some thumbboard ideas lately, so this should be a really easy mod for them.

    Scott
    Been busy lately with other stuff (aka work) ... so didn't slinker back to my passion till today. Yes, I did take a couple of snaps, and there is a conduit (of sorts) that hotsyncs pictures taken on the Treo600 to a desktop folder each time you hotsync. The images although 640x480, are to my opinion grainy as hell, no auto-contrast, etc. Worst is that it is very very pixelated. I'll try to upload to stephman's site (if he doesn't mind) in the next couple of hours ... Hopefully, the camera quality is becos its a pre-production unit (but I'm doubtful). Time will tell when the commercial units hit the shelf.

    I've been playing with several camera-phones and so far, the best ones are the Nokias and the Samsungs (Ericsson Suck). The XDA2 which I managed to have a glimpse was the best one so far (probably because of the big screen). I'll be getting a sample unit XDA2 soon, to 'field test' again, but don't think this would be the right forum to discuss about it.
  9. #69  
    Originally posted by BleedingEdge


    I'll try to upload to stephman's site (if he doesn't mind) in the next couple of hours ... Hopefully, the camera quality is becos its a pre-production unit (but I'm doubtful). Time will tell when the commercial units hit the shelf.
    BleedingEdge,
    Of course, just shoot the pics over to that ftp I sent you before and I'll get those up.
    PM me if you don't have that ftp link anymore.
  10. #70  
    Originally posted by Scott R
    I think the 3650's camera is "acceptable" for a camera built into a smartphone, but considering that the 3650 has been out for a long while now, is it really too much to ask for one of these more recent smartphones to have an even better camera?
    The N3650 has the best camera yes, I don't think you can get much better picture quality with just 0.3 MP. The reason why they are sticking with 640x480 (0.3MP), I believe, is a combination of marketing strategy/cost and simply to keep the size of the pictures down. A higher resolution camera would produce much bigger jpg's, making them useless for MMS and e-mail. Afterall, Nokia and other manufacturers are selling these devices as "multimedia" phones and not high-end smartphones (even though they (7650/3650) have no less functionality than the M$ smartphones etc.). Mobile Cameras aren't meant for any serious picture taking, just for fun multimedia stuff, a "share the moment" kind of thing, at least at the moment...

    But I'm sure this will change. I'm sure high-end smart/PDA phones willl feature better cameras in the future. One of the Clie's has a 1.3MP camera, if I remember correctly, so I don't think it's unlikely that the high-end smart/PDA phones will get it too eventually. All the newer hybrid devices have got external storage capabilities, so picture size isn't really an issue anymore. It's all about marketing. The "multimedia" direction that Nokia have been taken, has proved to be extremely successful, selling Symbian Series 60 devices (the x650's) in the millions. But I still think the market is ready for high-end phones with "useful" cameras, especially now when almost everyone have got a camera phone of some sort.

    I think they might stick the low res cameras in the low/mid-end devices with limited storage capabilities, and hopefully use relatively high res cameras in the future high-end PDA-phones.

    Originally posted by Scott R
    The older 7650 (of which the 3650 is based) already had stereo out, and they've been fooling around with some thumbboard ideas lately, so this should be a really easy mod for them.
    No, the Nokia 7650 doesn't have stereo sound output either (I used to own one some time ago). The only current Symbian phone to feature stereo sound output for MP3/Ogg is the Sony Ericsson P800 (I currently own this one).
  11. #71  
    Ares, I was pretty sure that I had read that the 7650 had a stereo output, but since you owned one and I didn't, I won't argue about it.

    As far as the camera resolution is concerned, I disagree that the Nokia's picture quality is about the best it can get at the 640x480 resolution. This is something I've ranted about before. Most of the polished product shots you see on web sites are quite a bit less than 640x480. The main problem is the optics, as most of these cameras are fixed focus and not autofocus. Throwing extra megapixels onto a fixed focus lens is just going to give you lousy photos in high-res. Now, it would be tricky to offer optical zoom in a PDA/smartphone without adding to the thickness (which, I believe, would be acceptable for some people), but added an autofocus lens should definitely be doable. Having said that, an autofocus lens, like the megapixel issue, isn't all you need for good pictures, either. I'm sure a good part of what separates some of the good 3MP cameras from the great ones is also in the firmware (algorithms, etc.).

    As you said, a big reason smartphone manufacturers are sticking with 640x480 has to do with keeping file sizes down, as larger files would use up more bandwidth (which, depending on a carrier's pricing plan could either be good or bad for them). Again, though, I'm perfectly fine with sticking with 640x480 (ideally, 1.3MP), so long as they improve the rest of the camera "package" (as mentioned) above, so as to get the most out of that 640x480 resolution.

    Sorry for getting so far off-topic...

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  12. #72  
    In case anyone cares...

    Ares, I went over to some Symbian forums to check my info and you were right (like you needed me to tell you). The 7650 was/is mono as well. The Siemens SX1 is stereo (not available in the US, I think, and I can't stand that numeric keypad layout anyway) and the upcoming Samsung Symbian phone is stereo as well. Also, the N-Gage will be stereo.

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  13. #73  
    Good point, Scott, but wouldn't optical zoom etc. require quite a bit of processing power? My P800 with a 156MHz ARM9 processor will just shut down the camera if I don't have a fair amount of RAM available.

    Yeah, I know the Siemens SX1, Nokia N-Gage and Samsung D700 all have stereo output, but they aren't released yet... The Siemens is tri-band though, so it would work in the US.

    (I too am sorry for being off topic)
  14. #74  
    Originally posted by mwylde
    And PurpleX-can't you ever agree with someone once? Ever?
    Concur. Isn't he just a little ray of sunshine?
  15.    #75  
    Ok, I've looked thru some of the snaps on my desktop taken a couple wks back. I've uploaded 1 picture to Stephman (sorry, rest were personal) that I took of my notebook (max brightness) when installing the Treo600 CD. As mentioned, there isn't auto-focus, so it looks pretty bad ... Or maybe my expectations is too high?
  16. #76  
    Originally posted by Ares
    Good point, Scott, but wouldn't optical zoom etc. require quite a bit of processing power? My P800 with a 156MHz ARM9 processor will just shut down the camera if I don't have a fair amount of RAM available.

    Yeah, I know the Siemens SX1, Nokia N-Gage and Samsung D700 all have stereo output, but they aren't released yet... The Siemens is tri-band though, so it would work in the US.

    (I too am sorry for being off topic)
    Digital zoom requires processing power. Optical zoom requires mechanical power (because the lense/aperture has to be physically zoomed in/out).

    The quality of the final image file will depend on the quality of the image sensors and metering cell. A metering cell measures the light coming through the lens and sets the aperture and shutter speed for the correct exposure. Bad pictures are the result of inappropriate shutter speed and exposure. This results in each pixel getting an inappropriate "charge" which controls its brightness.

    All of this process operates independently of the central processor of the Treo (or whatever camera phone you happen to be using). Yes, you'll need memory to hold the information that is collected (thus the camera software may shut down in low memory conditions). If an optical viewfinder was used (instead of the screen), an ARM-based (or better) processor wouldn't be needed.
    --Inspector Gadget

    "Go Go Gadget Pre!!"
    Palm Pre on Sprint

    Palm V--> Palm IIIc--> Visor Prism--> Visor Phone--> Treo 270--> Treo 600--> Treo 650-->
    Treo 700wx--> HTC Touch Diamond--> Palm Pre & HTC EVO 4G.
  17. #77  
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by slffl
    Is there ANY color device, that's not reflective tft, that can be seen outdoors, especially in direct sunlight? I've never seen one, but maybe someone here has? [/QUOTE

    palms tungsten w was acceptable in sunlight, but your point is well taken which is precisely why this rush for every handheld to be in color is lacking. monochrome works nicely in sun and is much less drain on the power. it should be an option if the color screens are not visible in day light.
    Last edited by JTREOB; 09/05/2003 at 12:39 AM.
  18. #78  
    The screen on the Zire 71 is 320 X 320 and looks very good in direct sunlight.

    I don't know if its "reflective tft" or not, but I wish it were used on the 600.
  19. #79  
    Originally posted by Stickman
    The screen on the Zire 71 is 320 X 320 and looks very good in direct sunlight.

    I don't know if its "reflective tft" or not, but I wish it were used on the 600.
    The Z71 has a transflecitve 320x320 TFT screenie just like the T2 and T|C. And yes, I wish the T600 had that screen!
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  20. #80  
    For what it's worth, my brother works for Orange and some of his pre-release Nokias are nothing like the ones sold to the general public.

    I wonder if the 600 BleedingEdge has is a pre-release version...
    www.gsmworld.com
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