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  1. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #61  
    want my verdict? I was the one who predict the death of T remember?

    @ $500+ treo 600 will be a total flop. It's window of opportunity is only October and November, then bye bye treo...

    @ $400+ It will be a luke warm success in the range of treo 300.

    treo will be a total hit at $250-300.

    HS long term vision? what vision? It can't even pay bill let alone making the vision a reality. I can give credit for jh proving that handheld is a sizeable market and the industry should pay attention. But not smartphone. For smartphone, jh teaches us the things not to do.

    3 strikes, he is out. He obviously can't get the mix of design, functionality and price right.
  2.    #62  
    Originally posted by mwylde


    And the price rage is in the thousands...
    If your going to be thinking about such revolutionary (not to mention expensive) technology that won't be available for many years why compare it to a treo 600, with is going to be released for before yours. Also why are you surprised when JH does not show interest in it when it fits more in a science fiction novel then on shelves.
    Mwylde:

    .3 Megapixel camera lenses like the Treo 600 has today cost around $8 per unit OEM. In a year they will probably cost less than $3.

    Science fiction??? I think not. Trust me…if we could put a man on the moon in 1969 we can figure out how to use your eyes as a mouse.

    DocoMo in Japan already has telephones with two cameras in them.

    P.S. If you don’t have dreams they can’t come true.
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  3. #63  
    my 5 minutes with hawkins.

    1.make sure the screen can be seen in direct sunlight
    2. make sure the treo has a voice recorder
    3. allow me to voice dial / speed dial / who can recall 20 speed dial numbers?

    simple!

    thier desire is for a one device hand held in the field. i'm in the field daily. forget the hit a letter bring up an app. lets get real here. it was stated from the beginning this device was for business not a back yard gadget. lets keep that in mind. all i needed was 5 minutes. my notes would have been on a napkin. would he have listened? if he has any business sense at all, he would have. as far as any rudeness, thats his problem not mine.
    Last edited by JTREOB; 08/17/2003 at 09:30 AM.
  4. #64  
    I have heard that the software on the T600 will be able to control the microphone and speaker, so somebody could easily make software (as I'm sure someone will) that can voice dial and record calls.
    "Matters of great concern should be taken lightly, matters of small concern should be taken seriously."
    -ancient chinese adage
  5. #65  
    You know, Jake... it doesn't surprise me one bit that you got that kind of arrogant reaction from Jeff Hawkins. I don't think the meeting would have gone much differently had it been with Steve Jobs, Bill Gates or even Michael Dell. Even if they liked any of your ideas, they probably would not have given you the satisfaction of letting you know it.

    As far as arranging a meeting with JH and trying to share your ideas with them, I applaud your initiative. It's just too bad if what you say is true. Anyway... I, for one, will hold off on any critical judgement until I read your complete article.

    I'm still looking forward to the Treo 600! Like someone else said, we don't buy products just cause the people that make them are nice. If that were the case, I wouldn't use Windows.

    Everybody is free to decide for themselves what to believe in. There will ALWAYS be disbelievers and skeptics no matter what evidence is presented. So be it.

    RayUSA

    "Imagination is more powerful than knowledge."
    - Albert Einstein
  6. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #66  
    If they are not serious about listening to the pitch, then why waste time arranging the meeting just for a snigger? That doesn't sound professional to me, wasting their own time without checking first if the pitch is even worth a meeting.

    Gates or Dell definitely will have people check first if not delegating the meeting to others. If that meeting is actually real and not somebody's fantasy, I would say there is some serious problem with HS management. (not that it needs further proof knowing the state of their company)

    Also: anybody notices they have some 300 plus people working on 3 active products?
  7.    #67  
    Originally posted by RayUSA
    You know, Jake... it doesn't surprise me one bit that you got that kind of arrogant reaction from Jeff Hawkins. I don't think the meeting would have gone much differently had it been with Steve Jobs, Bill Gates or even Michael Dell. Even if they liked any of your ideas, they probably would not have given you the satisfaction of letting you know it.

    As far as arranging a meeting with JH and trying to share your ideas with them, I applaud your initiative. It's just too bad if what you say is true. Anyway... I, for one, will hold off on any critical judgement until I read your complete article.

    I'm still looking forward to the Treo 600! Like someone else said, we don't buy products just cause the people that make them are nice. If that were the case, I wouldn't use Windows.

    Everybody is free to decide for themselves what to believe in. There will ALWAYS be disbelievers and skeptics no matter what evidence is presented. So be it.

    RayUSA

    "Imagination is more powerful than knowledge."
    - Albert Einstein
    Hi Ray!

    I agree with everything you said. The more I think about it the more I believe Jeff Hawkins should be deeply ashamed of his actions...across the board.

    I am familiar with and really like the Einstein quote on imagination you added as your tag line. It is indeed true; Imagination is more powerful than knowledge.

    Speaking of knowledge. There is another great quote from Charles Kettering that says, “There is a great difference between knowing and understanding you can know a lot about something without understanding it.”

    Of course imagination stems from curiosity. Another great quote from the master is:

    The important thing is to not stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity! —Albert Einstein

    By the way Ray have you checked your Personal Messages lately? I sent you one and have not heard back? You simply click on the settings tab and then on your inbox on Treocentral.com

    Jake
    Last edited by JakeE; 08/17/2003 at 04:10 AM.
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  8.    #68  
    Originally posted by treopolis


    Did Jeff say I don't want to leave a sour taste in your mouth, but...? He didn't specify his but... or are you leaving out his reason for being 'so rude'?

    I have to say that I welcomed your posts as a good source of information. Let's see what'll happen in the next couple of days. Until then I'm with 'Nautilus Man' as being skeptical...

    andreas
    Andreas,

    You sure were not skeptical when you asked my permission to publish my mock-up artwork of the Treo 600 before the photos were available.

    Jake
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  9. #69  
    Originally posted by silverado
    - It seems that they may have looked at JakeE as a business man who is trying to sell them some ideas. I'm sure they have seen many such people, most of them do this for a living. It looks like they gave JakeE a grilling, the type you would give to anyone who is trying to sell you something.

    ... I think that you were probably out of the norm from the people JH meets with to pitch ideas to him. Not sure why they agreed to the meeting, but when you took the presenter position, you got the rough treatment of a cut-throat business setting. You have to stand there and defend your ideas, no benefit of the doubt is given. People have to be great persuaders and have special skills to get through something like this successfully. ... I don't fault the other side from a business perspective....
    I think that this is one of the most insightful and grounded posts I have read on this entire thread. Persuasion can be a cut throat political art form. Throughout history dreamers like Jules Verne in his day were often frustrated in their need for their ideas to be validated by the established powers. In any age, several economic and business realities have needed to be allowed enough gestation time in order to "catch up" with the leading edge vision of the designers. Things have always been that way and they always will be. To me, it's the classic difference between art and science. Humans dreamed of going to the moon for a long time but that desire did not reach enough critical mass to happen until the mid 20th century. The gap between design dreams and production reality will always involve "trade-offs" at any given moment in time.

    Who knows JakeE? Maybe Jeff Hawkins (IF you indeed met with him) thinks you are a total nut case. So what? You can choose to wear such a possibility as a badge of honor rather than dwell on their not "getting it." If you expend all your creative energy in the political game of seeking acceptance, you'll set yourself up every time. Why is it so important to secure Handspring's blessing? Who needs them? Go create your own UI hack and do this thing without them if it is indeed so good. The marketplace of ideas will reward you accordingly and any truly breakthrough ideas will sell themselves on their own by standing up to the critical test of real world application and acceptance vs. sketch pad debates or cleverly written articles.

    I also like the comments in the "my 5 minutes with hawkins" post by JTREOB. These just cut to the chase.

    There is nothing wrong with Science Fiction. Captain Kirk's communicator was just such a thing only 35 years ago. Traversing the gap from fiction to fact requires a LOT more than glowingly written reviews about design concepts however.

    As for Jake leading some kind of insurrection to "make Handspring pay" for their so-called, snub ... THAT sounds like more of a personal vendetta and a stupid political agenda unbecoming of a passionate designer. Handheld users will vote with their dollars via purchases based on real world, end user experience as opposed to cleverly written spin on the part of critics from the sidelines. I never decide if a movie sucks by listening to the film critics. I check it out for myself. Throwing tantrums over design tradeoffs is a misplaced attempt to control a company that we neither own nor operate. Handspring is not some democratically elected republic with benevolent, all-knowing representatives to decide the fate of these thiings. It is a business with a heirarachy of flawed human beings destined to make decisions which the marketplace will ultimately pass judgement upon as it has already throughout Handspring's history. If through his writings Jake can somehow convince the entire world to NOT purchase a single future Treo now until they all contain a human retina driven mouse, or whatever else he may think is great ... all power to him for such an exercise in futility. The marketplace will still decide. Hubris on the part of Jeff Hawkins, JakeE, or anyone else will not matter squat.

    -THP
    Last edited by Nautilus Man; 08/17/2003 at 06:22 AM.
    Think First, ask questions later!
  10. #70  
    > ...Why did it have to be decision based on all or nothing? Why
    > totally abandon the pda business when they had yet to prove
    > any success in the smartphone arena?...

    You have to remember that hand-in-hand with technical decisions are financial decisions - and realizations.

    HAND had entered into a VERY expensive lease arrangement - when it became obvious that Handspring-the-company would not be expanding fast enough to justify that disaster it was TRIVIAL for HAND management to "do the math" and see that PDAs were not generating enough bucks to sustain the company - they HAD to go some other route.

    It was also trivial to do very simple math and see that EXPENDITURES would use up remaining funds too quickly if more than one path was followed.

    If one checks out the S-4 that PALM submitted (about page 50-ish) there is a nicely-dated history of the merger process - it shows HAND management knew they were screwed a LONG time ago.

    The TREOs were an all-or-nothing bet.

    (but this is all for another thread, right - here we're discussing whether or not Jake or Jeff Hawkins is a flake!)
  11. #71  
    > ...anybody notices they have some 300 plus people working on
    > 3 active products?

    They have ONE active product - the TREO 600 - all others have been discontinued for some time and are simply being sold out of inventory.

    And, yes, it has been noticed for quite some time that they seem to have WAY too many employees for what they do - almost all of HAND's design, production, AND marketing is farmed out (historically that is - the TREO 600 GSM model (at least) appears to have considerable in-house hands).

    Why they need 300 people to do what they do (have done) was brought up a few quarters ago when they announced some layoffs (on a Yahoo financial board, not here).
  12.    #72  
    Nautilus Man

    One of the best books I ever read is named “The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People” by Stephen Covey. Perhaps the most powerful of the seven habits is “Seek first to understand, then to be understood.” I live by this and in my personal opinion Jeff Hawkins did exactly the opposite. Jeff if you are reading this I would very highly recommend you read this book.

    Nautilus Man, this goes much deeper than securing Jeff Hawkins' blessing. With Palm’s acquisition of HS, HS as we know it will soon be irrelevant. This issue goes much deeper than Jeff Hawkins. The issue here is feedback loops and we as consumers holding the people that take our money in exchange for their work product accountable.

    I feel the same way about TreoCentral.com. The editors of this website have created a world class website but it seems to be crippled by Handspring due to Handsprings lack of meaningful support. If you don’t believe me just look at what Microsoft has done with supporting Jason Dunn at PocketPCThoughts.com and Smartphonethoughts.com.

    I pray that when Palm takes over Handspring they realize what a precious resource Treocentral.com and its readers are. As a passionate member of this forum I am always blown away at how insightful our members are.

    I have no vendetta for anyone. As a patron and consumer I am simply holding Jeff Hawkins accountable for his careless and wanton actions.

    By the way Nautilus Man, just to gain insight into your personal context, do you own and use a Handspring product? I bought a Treo 180 the day it became available. Same with my Treo 270.

    I have NO intention of persuading anyone not to purchase a 600. Quite the contrary; I meant everything I said in my review and I intend to purchase a Treo 600 the first minute I am able to acquire one.

    What PDA do you use?
    Last edited by JakeE; 08/17/2003 at 06:28 AM.
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  13.    #73  
    Originally posted by SeldomVisitor
    (but this is all for another thread, right - here we're discussing whether or not Jake or Jeff Hawkins is a flake!)
    SeldomVisitor:

    I don't see Jeff responding here? Do you think he cares? As a matter of fact I have never seen him post anything anywhere in this forum. If it is true he only works one day a week at Handspring I would agrue that should answer your question.

    After all what is going on here? As far as I am concerned this is just an extension of the DOT.Con???
    You know, rewarding executives for their failures.

    What is that Steve Miller song? I think it is called, "Go on, Take The Money And Run."

    Jake
    Last edited by JakeE; 08/17/2003 at 06:53 AM.
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  14.    #74  
    Nautilus Man:

    Are you going to answer my question?

    What PDA do you personally own and use?

    Jake
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  15. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #75  
    Jake, post the entire article already. lol

    Plus how much money did you think you gonna make out of licensing your idea to HS anyway? Let's just say they sells 50K unit/Q and you get a generous 10 cents license, that's 5K/Q. Now if you have a wildly successfull Palm apps with $3 bucks pure profits and you sell say 300K copy of it, that's 900K profit right there, without the groveling even.

    but then again what do I know, I am just a scarecrow.
  16.    #76  
    PurpleX,

    Actually in the Wizard of Palm Saga, I think it is me that is the Scarecrow? The way Jeff Treated me I shoud be singing "If I only had a brain?" You aren’t Jeff in disguise are you?

    My liscencing offer had little to do with money. Don't get me wrong, I believe designers and inventors should be rewarded
    for their valurable contributions.PrupleX,

    Actually in the Wizard of Palm Saga, I think it is me that is the Scarecrow? The way Jeff Treated me I should be singing "If I only had a brain?" Maybe I am Toto?

    My licensing offer had little to do with money. Don't get me wrong, I believe designers and inventors should be rewarded for their valuable contributions, but I am much more interested in design excellence.

    Jake
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  17. #77  
    Originally posted by JakeE


    SeldomVisitor:

    I don't see Jeff responding here? Do you think he cares? As a matter of fact I have never seen him post anything anywhere in this forum. If it is true he only works one day a week at Handspring I would agrue that should answer your question.

    Jake
    I don't think whether Jeff Hawkins reads this discussion forum, posts here, or only works one day a week at Handspring determines whether or not he is a flake. I don't think that answers SeldomVisitor's question at all. I am not at all inclined to hold JH to such a limited, personally judgemental standard as that. Maybe he dismisses us ALL as just a bunch of losers and lunatics because we spend so much time on this discussion forum. That would be just fine with me by the way even though it is obviously not true. Jeff H. doesn't need to pay attention to this forum. We are all important enough in our own right even without his official presence here. IMO, it is simply not a condition to be met for legitimacy. We can howl about it all we want but JH sets his own priorities and the marketplace still ultimately decides!

    -THP
    Think First, ask questions later!
  18.    #78  
    Nautilus Man

    Why are you ignoring answering my question? I have asked you three times:

    What PDA do you own and use?
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  19. #79  
    > ...I don't see Jeff responding here?...

    True.

    It has been said that it is not cost-effective for Bill Gates to take the time to bend over and pick up a $100 bill on the ground.

    How cost-effective would it be for billionaire (?) Hawkins to post on an obscure message board? (note - yes, obscure - well known to hardcore TREO fans and few else)

    > ...Do you think he cares?...

    If he does, he really IS a flake.

    > ...As a matter of fact I have never seen him post anything
    > anywhere in this forum...

    This is neither a positive nor a negative thing.

    > ...If it is true he only works one day a week at Handspring I
    > would agrue that should answer your question.

    Though there is no doubt that he is a part-timer yours is the first I've read that his part-timer status is one day a week. Please note, too, that I was literally shocked that you, a self-avowed Hawkins uber-fan, didn't know he was a part-timer! This has been VERY public knowledge (to the extent it's even been in SEC-filed documents!) for at least a year. Hawkins will be a part-timer at PALM as well, BTW.

    =====

    It is TOTALLY unclear to THIS reader what the "two sides" of your meeting with Handspring were expecting - from the initial posts you made about the meeting I certainly was under the impression that Hawkins was expecting a meeting with a TREO fan, nothing more. And so were you.

    But THIS thread's initial posts imply something MUCH different - or perhaps something surprising to Hawkins. If he WAS expecting a meeting with a TREO fan and was surprisingly presented with what amounts to a sales pitch then ANY attitude he displayed might be somewhat justifiable.

    (and, frankly, I can't believe that Hawkins himself would take the time to meet with someone doing a sales pitch - that's what underlings are for, especially if Hawkins really IS only working one day a week! Since that IS my disbelief I have to think he was expecting to meet with the equivalent of a "reporter" - BWTFDIK!)
  20.    #80  
    SeldomVisitor:

    I agree WTFDYN????

    Jake
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
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