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  1. #21  
    I am no way trying to be a troll or a flamer but what were you thinking when you suggested to Jeff Hawkins, the man that more or less invented the Palm Pilot that you would be willing to license your ideas to him? I mean, you've spent probably no more than half a day with a alpha/beta/whatever model of the Treo 600 and 60 hours researching. Hawkins has spent more then half his adult life doing this. I mean, just to play devil's advocate, how would you feel if someone came in to your office, who you thought was just going to interview you, and basically tried to pull a sales pitch on you? As for me? I would show him/her the door. Let's be realistic.

    Done with my rant
    TheHandlessKing
    Latest moBlog shot:
  2.    #22  
    Nautilus Man

    You think I am making all this up? I imagine you must be assuming that I never had a preview of a Treo 600 and I made all that up to?

    http://www.treocentral.com/content/Stories/240-1.htm

    As far a libel laws are concerned, I attended law school and know exactly where I stand legally. This is an opinion piece just like my story was. I am not stating my opinion as a fact and I am not saying anything disparaging or untrue about anyone. The bottom line is that Jeff Hawkins was rude to me and I am holding him accountable for his actions.

    TheHandlessKing

    You don’t know anything about me. You don’t know what kind of UI or product design experience I have.

    I anticipated this kind of response and as I mentioned earlier I am 100% committed to backing up what I have said.

    And if any of you think I am doing this for attention you are incorrect. You see I come from the old school that says that customer satisfaction is and should be the driving force behind every company. I live by the Golden Rule and I treat everybody the way I would like to be treated. The bottom line is that I don’t give anybody a hard time and I don’t take it from anybody.

    I think Jeff Hawkins is out of touch with his customers and in my experience was not interested in anything I said. If the tables were turned I would have sought to understand my customer.

    Jake
    Last edited by JakeE; 08/16/2003 at 02:07 AM.
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  3.    #23  
    Gfunkmagic:

    How were they rude and condescending? As we began our meeting Jeff asked me “So how much revenue is your company doing?” I told Jeff that we were just coming out of our R&D mode and that we were just getting ready to launch our brand. Then Jeff asked me again. From that point forward they were both condescending.

    I told them I had a detailed presentation I had put together and that I was really excited to share some great ideas with them. Both of them kept saying, “come on, come on, hurry up. Get to it.” They both also kept making these noises where they were kind of laughing. I know this might sound strange but for some reason they sounded like sniveling hyenas to me and they both seemed to be suffering from severe Attention Deficit Order.

    Finally about half way through my presentation I gave up because I strongly sensed they were not at all seeking to understand me. They disagreed with almost everything I said. At one point I pointed out the window and said “The sky is blue.” They looked at me kind of funny and I said, “well you guys have disagreed with everything I have said so I though you would tell me the sky was green instead of blue.”

    Jeff kept interrupting me and talking over me. I presented Jeff with a concept that I came up with called Bullet Train. Bullet Train is a GUI enhancement that allows you do find any application you want by simply holing down they the corresponding key on the keyboard.

    So for instance let’s say you want to get to the calculator. You hold down the “C” key for one second and a menu pops that has all the programs that begin with a C. So you would have Contacts, Calculator, Camera, Chess Genius, City-Time, Call history and Copy and Cut. Each name would have a different letter underlined and when you hit that key on the keyboard it would launch that program. So for instance if I held down the “C” key for a second the “C” menu would pop up and then you would notice that Calculator had its “U” underlined and if you hit the “U” key it would launch the Calculator.

    I told Jeff that I had come up with the idea of holding down a key to launch a specific key and I showed him a print out of it from the Treomb.com website that I had posted on March 22, 2002. I said that either they got the idea from my post or it was a coincidence that we both came up with the idea. You can view my original post on my one button idea:

    http://www.treomb.com/IBForum/index....t=ST&f=9&t=458

    Jeff told me my idea for Bullet Train that uses the alphabet was wrong and that Lotus had experimented with the idea of using alphabetical menus and that it never worked. I said to Jeff, “You are drawing a false analogy.” He looked at me with this kind of blank look on his face. At that point I reminded Jeff that before he came up with Graffiti that almost all devices used small keyboards and that most of the industry copied him until he decided that small keyboards were better and went back. I suggested that many ideas that were originally discounted may have merit.

    Toward the end of our meeting, Peter Skillman turned to me while he was holding a prototype cutout in his hand that I made for my Phantom V design reference and said,"I want you to know that making cut outs is a good first step in analyzing the form factor." He said this to me like I was a three year old. I have been designing for close to twenty years and they were treating me like I just fell of the truck.

    Jeff was well aware of how they treated me. One of the last things he said to me as I was packing up to leave was “I don’t want to leave a sour taste in you mouth, but.” It was too late for that. Perhaps they are under a lot of pressure but that is no excuse for them treating me disrespectfully.
    Last edited by JakeE; 08/16/2003 at 02:10 AM.
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  4. #24  
    Originally posted by JakeE
    Nautilus Man

    You think I am making all this up? I imagine you must be assuming that I never had a preview of a Treo 600 and I made all that up to?

    http://www.treocentral.com/content/Stories/240-1.htm

    As far a libel laws are concerned, I attended law school and know exactly where I stand legally. This is an opinion piece just like my story was. I am not stating my opinion as a fact and I am not saying anything disparaging or untrue about anyone. The bottom line is that Jeff Hawkins was rude to me and I am holding him accountable for his actions.
    Jake,

    Given your evidence, or lack thereof ... Yes, I remain skeptical but honest and open enough to be proven wrong. Let me explain further. Enjoy the "accountable" ride in the hot seat you have created for yourself.

    Having attended law school, you of anyone should know that each of us as your "witnesses" are subject to our own subjectivity. "Objection your honor ... the opposing counsel's comments continue to lead the witnesses and fall under the category of idle hearsay." ... "Sustained!"

    Build your case man. We are not dummies here reading this. Build it with more than your feelings over how much of a misunderstood, unlistened to handheld customer you are. Such theatrics pander all too easily to the natural sentiments of this forum. We all can live vicariously with fantasies of what WE would each do if we were in Jeff Hawkin's shoes. Victimology diatribes might be fun but that really doesn't explain anything.

    I have no reason to doubt that you were able to preview a Treo 600. There is no need for you to imagine any such assumption on my part. I am not on some campaign to rain on your parade or discredit you either. I have no mischievous agenda to cast seeds of doubt about unprovable details of some encounter with Jeff Hawkins. This whole 'Wizard' thing just seems a little too dramatic and over the top to me. I do have more empathy for you than you might think and I knew my comments would be provocative. Consider my honesty as just some good old-school customer satisfaction feedback from one of YOUR (Information) customers who is not satisfied nor buying it yet. I still wonder if there wasn't a real disconnect over the reason why Hawkins would even want to meet with you and assuming they did, was it their advanced understanding that you were going to present formal proposals as some kind of ombudsman on behalf of all of us other so-called, "little people" out here in Treo-Land? There was no reason to go pay homage to the king. Now the scoop news and warning that you are sounding is that the emperor has no clothes. You are speaking with too many populist sounding, podium pounding themes of outrage. I think the Golden Rule is more widely adhered to than you may think.

    Did you write Mr. Hawkins a calmly stated, business-like letter expressing how you feel the meeting went? He may surprise you with an apology if you are able to clearly communicate how you feel that he came across as disinterested in you as a customer. I know I probably sound like I am trashing the most popular cheerleader in the senior class here. I really dig the sentimental enthusiasm in your initial 'Love at First Sight' posting Jake. I'm with you man but I hate to see you look foolish as a result of getting all caught up in self-inflated grandiosity just because Treo Central printed your review. Stay grounded with such notoriety and you will have more credibility in my opinion. I honestly do not know you and I could be entirely wrong in my observations. Maybe it is your style of writing. I am just calling it like I see it. Instead of the ongoing announcements about how you are someday soon going to tell us about some new inside scoop, etc. ... just tell us when you are ready ... without any advance publicity work. There is an old saying. "Tell me, don't sell me."

    If Jeff Hawkins is the dork that you now suddenly allege him to be ... oh well. I am truly sorry then for your personal disappointment and shattered idealism. If the newly merged Palm can put out a leading edge device that is well designed despite dorks running the show, all the better.

    A final comment: Your dissatisfaction is the perfect breeding ground for an entrepreneurial spark to take hold. Take your outrage Jake and DO something with it that sets the world on fire. You have often crowed about your passionate love for leading edge design that inspires and changes the world. In other words let this experience inspire you to really go out and show that Mr. Hawkins how it should be done. Something positive can result then. Such is the beauty of free enterprise. Sorry this message got a little long and a bit wandering. I look forward to reading more about this story from yours and others future posts.

    My best wishes.

    -THP
    Last edited by Nautilus Man; 08/16/2003 at 05:56 AM.
    Think First, ask questions later!
  5.    #25  
    THP:

    Objection???? On what ground????

    I believe you need to freshen up on your legal rules of evidence. Hearsay by legal definition is evidence based on the reports of others rather than the personal knowledge of a witness and therefore generally not admissible as testimony.

    There is no hearsay. I know this information to be a fact because I was there. I saw it with my own eyes and heard it with my own ears. This is not hearsay, this is direct evidence.

    In reality it is you that is simply conjecturing, and what you have put forth is groundless hearsay and speculation. Furthermore, you are not a witness to what I have been through. You were not there; you have no real knowledge of the events that lead up to this issue.

    You know THP it is amusing because your tagline on your posts reads: “Think first, ask questions later.” Why don’t you take your own advice?

    For whatever it is worth I am not trying to sell you anything. Who said anything about my idealism being shattered? And what makes you believe your own hearsay that I am not already making a dent in the universe. Talk about hearsay and immaterial, irrelevant conjecture. You obviously don’t know the first thing about me!!!

    “negative victimology diatribe”??????????

    I am not being negative. Jeff was negative. I am extremely positive. Victim????? I think not. Try Ownership mentality. I have anything but a victim mentality.

    THP you are conducting a kangaroo court, with yourself serving as the judge, jury and prosecutor.

    I politely ask that you reserve judgment before you have all the facts presented to you. In due time I will provide this forum with all the relevant facts. Then you can judge for yourself.

    Objection overruled!!!
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  6. #26  
    Hi Jake,

    What was the background to this meeting?

    My assumption following your review (which you know we loved) and the initial mention you made of your interview was that this was 'a chance for the fans to chat to the master about the treo'.

    It sounds like you thought it was 'a chance for your company to pitch ideas on how future treo's could/should be built.'

    Could a misunderstanding like this be the root of the problem?

    If so, it does't excuse rudeness - but perhaps puts it in some context.

    I still can't wait to read the interview...
  7. #27  
    Let the Trial continue your Honor ... without the adhominem please.

    Respectfully and Skeptically Yours,

    -THP
    Think First, ask questions later!
  8. #28  
    Jake - though I certainly don't share your enthusiasm for the TREO 600, I read your posts religiously.

    When you finally do release your "Hawkins meeting article" I suspect you are going to be bending over backwards to be "fair" to him.

    Be careful not to bend too far.
  9. #29  
    Originally posted by JakeE
    I am not stating my opinion as a fact and I am not saying anything disparaging or untrue about anyone.
    Jake,

    You ARE stating your OPINION to us that Jeff Hawkins was rude to you as a FACT. You are sharing this opinion of your interpretation with us with the expectation that we simply believe your subjectively interpreted truth without being there ourselves to witness and interpret the events. You are correct. None of us were there. That is the very reason for my skepticism as expressed above. Should we take your "opinion" on blind faith as fact? No, I prefer to believe that we each interpret the events we encounter out of the paradigm that each of us operates from. Thus, we are subject to our own subjectivity as a witness. I have merely asked you to hold to the standard of making the case to all of the rest of us ... not just to your self. I don't wish to detract from this thread any further.

    Again, respectfully but skeptically yours,

    -THP
    Last edited by Nautilus Man; 08/16/2003 at 06:44 AM.
    Think First, ask questions later!
  10.    #30  
    Originally posted by Nautilus Man


    Jake,

    You ARE stating your OPINION to us that Jeff Hawkins was rude to you as a FACT. You are sharing this opinion of your interpretation with us with the expectation that we simply believe your subjectively interpreted truth without being there ourselves to witness and interpret the events. You are correct. None of us were there. That is the very reason for my skepticism as expressed above. Should we have to take your opinion on blind faith? No, I prefer to believe that we see the events we encounter out of the paradigm that each of us operates from. Thus, we are subject to our own subjectivity. I don't wish to detract from this thread any further.

    Again, respectfully but skeptically yours,

    -THP
    No I am not. I am stating it as my opinion. In my opinion he was extremely rude. What? I am not allowed to have an opinion? Just like in my opinion the Treo 600 is a stunning work of art. Paradoxical huh!?!?!?

    And by the way it is ad hominem not adhominem.
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  11. #31  
    An honest typo your honor. I missed the space bar.

    -THP
    Think First, ask questions later!
  12.    #32  
    Makes you wonder what else you missed?
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  13. #33  
    There is no more back and forth face-saving necessary with this thread. I have said my peace. My wonder is depleted and I now await further detailed evidence about the rude Mr. Hawkins so that we may assist you in truly holding him accountable for treating you disrespectfully.

    -THP
    Think First, ask questions later!
  14. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #34  
    Originally posted by JakeE

    So for instance let’s say you want to get to the calculator. You hold down the “C” key for one second and a menu pops that has all the programs that begin with a C. So you would have Contacts, Calculator, Camera, Chess Genius, City-Time, Call history and Copy and Cut. Each name would have a different letter underlined and when you hit that key on the keyboard it would launch that program. So for instance if I held down the “C” key for a second the “C” menu would pop up and then you would notice that Calculator had its “U” underlined and if you hit the “U” key it would launch the Calculator.
    You were giving UI suggestiong to jh? lol
    I don't know about you but that in itself is pretty stupid. the basic UI navigation of treo line hasn't been changed since the early days ! And you are suggesting a radical menu system that never been tested in the market yet?

    you might as well trying to have religious conversion.

    PS. why not write the UI replacement app and sell the thing already and see how people like it? That should solve a lot of the skepticism problem.
  15. #35  
    Originally posted by purpleX
    3. The springboard is a good idea, but proprietary slot never survive long.
    Unless it's made by Sony.
  16. #36  
    Originally posted by purpleX
    PS. why not write the UI replacement app and sell the thing already and see how people like it?
    I think he should. It's brilliant. It's kinda what I accomplish with CoLauncher but better.
  17. #37  
    Originally posted by JakeE
    Jeff was well aware of how they treated me. One of the last things he said to me as I was packing up to leave was �I don�t want to leave a sour taste in you mouth, but.� It was too late for that. Perhaps they are under a lot of pressure but that is no excuse for them treating me disrespectfully. [/B]
    Did Jeff say I don't want to leave a sour taste in your mouth, but...? He didn't specify his but... or are you leaving out his reason for being 'so rude'?

    I have to say that I welcomed your posts as a good source of information. Let's see what'll happen in the next couple of days. Until then I'm with 'Nautilus Man' as being skeptical...

    andreas
    treopolis -the German treo site

    Now in beta testing: treopolis 2.0
  18. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #38  
    I thought the idea is pretty mundane.

    isn't the entire idea of T9 address search is based on such keyboard to alphabetical search? The T9 uses numerical pad instead of keyboard even. It actually works pretty well and people seems to like it. OK, it hasn't been tried as launcher but that seems a matter of expanding a little what's already out there.

    hell this sort of launcher might even be the most common way to do thing in the near future for all handheld with buttons but no touch screen.

    The smartphone implementation using numerical button to search address.
    http://www.howardchui.com/modules.ph...tid=135&page=3
  19.    #39  
    For all the greymen:

    To a certain extent I understand your skepticism. Only to a certain extent.

    I am a designer. I own a clothing company which I design for but I have extensive design experience that goes far beyond clothing.

    When I realized I would be meeting with Jeff Hawkins I was so excited I decided I did not want to waste the opportunity. Three years ago I had designed a UI enhancement for the Pocket PC. My UI concept was called BulletTrain. The basic gist of Bullet Train is that it made the PPC ten times faster and ten times easier to use.

    I sent a copy to Bill Gates and to the PPC team at Microsoft. The PPC team at M$ said they did not want to change their UI. OK they did not get it. When I saw the Treo 600 for the first time in a photo I was blown away.

    When I was invited to preview an actual Treo 600 in person I was so excited I wanted to show up with something that would enhance the Treo 600. This is before I met with Jeff Hawkins and before I wrote my review.

    I sat down and after 20 hours I came up with the BulletTrain UI enhancement that I mentioned above in this thread. My BulletTrain concept for the Treo 600 was not based on the PPC version I came up with years ago, but instead on the keyboard idea I mentioned earlier in this thread.

    I gave several copies to HS and one copy went to Rob Hatiani. Rob did not call me back and after leaving him a VM I decided to go straight to the top. I wrote Jeff Hawkins a letter and included a copy of my review and a copy of my Bullet Train UI enhancement.

    When Jeff Hawkins agreed to meet with me I was ecstatic. The only appointment he had available was almost two weeks later. I had admired Jeff Hawkins career from a distance for many years and was inspired by his innovative drive. When I met with Jeff the first thing out of my mouth was that I was so excited to meet with one of my positive role models.

    For the close to two weeks prior to meeting with Jeff I could not stop thinking about all the challenges that the Palm Platform was having. Thomas Edison, one of the greatest inventors in history, had a philosophy which I live by. Thomas Edison said, “There is a way to do it better.—Find it.” I set out to do so prior to my meeting with Jeff.

    I worked on my presentation something like eight hours a day. I was trying to imagine if I had a time machine and I could go to the year 2014, what would a Palm Device look like? How would it work? It occurred to me that if I could spend a few hours experimenting with such a device that there would be certain beneficial attributes that could be incorporated into the next Treo.

    So I set out do try and design what would be the Treo 900 but with features from what would be the equivalent of a Treo 2400? The challenge is that at least in my own mind I did it. I unearthed what I would consider to be an extremely futuristic version of today’s Treo 600.

    Soon I will be sharing my work product with you. In the meantime I can tell you that my device reference which I named the Phantom V is two thirds the size of a Treo 600 yet it has a 320x480 screen that is twice physical size of the Treo 600 and instead of having a physical keyboard it has an pop-up on screen keyboard that uses your retina for password security and for most navigation including keyboard text entry.

    I also completely redesigned a new Desktop UI that I believe is completely revolutionary. In my opinion Palm Desktop and Outlook leave a lot to be desired.

    Yes I did offer to license my ideas to Palm through Jeff Hawkins. I believe designers and inventors should be rewarded for creating intellectual property that is innovative and valuable. All Jeff did was pretty much laugh at me like I had three eyes and two noses.

    Jeff asked me not to share any of the details of our meeting with you. He speculated quite a bit about his plan for the future of where he wanted to see the Palm Platform go. I respect his wishes and I will NOT publish what he shared with me on that subject.

    On the other hand, in my personal opinion he was extremely rude and I will not stand for that. In my opinion his attitude was extremely unacceptable. One of the main challenges is that he kept disagreeing with me but he never let me finish sharing parts of my presentation with him. He kept cutting me off and talking over me.

    After our meeting I told him that I wanted to finish sharing my insight with him. He said he was not interested. I pleaded with him as a customer and said that if you are going to say no, please at least seek to understand what it is you are saying no to???

    He for some strange reason is not interested. If it is true that he only works at Handspring one day a week then it would make sense that to some extent he may have lost interest? This is pure speculation on my behalf but it is my best guess.

    As I mentioned earlier in this thread if the tables were turned I would have sought to genuinely understand my customer. Especially if he was so passionate and wrote the most detailed glowing review of my product on planet earth.

    As far as I am concerned I went in to see Jeff wearing three different hats. First and foremost I went as a customer of his work product. I am personally responsible for dozens of people owning current Treo 270 and 300s, and my article, Treo 600: Love at first site, had over 25,000 page views. If I helped 10% of the people who read that article to make a purchase decision to obtain a Treo 600 that would be over a million dollars in additional sales for Handspring.

    Secondly I went in as a designer who had invested a considerable amount of time thinking about ways to improve the Treo. This time investment is not limited to the hundred hours I have invested over the last several weeks but includes years of research and experimentation with UI design.

    Last by not least I went in as an un-appointed representative of this forum. I attempted to share ALL of the brilliant insight that I have gained from each and every one of you in this forum.

    In my opinion, and I shared this with Jeff, it is a mistake for Handspring to not get involved in this forum. I told Jeff that he should personally interact with people in this forum using his own name. I think this forum provides an excellent feedback loop for Handspring and Palm.

    This forum may become irrelevant in the future because of Palm acquiring HS. I know that Palm has suggested it would keep the Treo nomenclature for one of its lines but I think this would be a mistake. The Treo was originally named as such because it did three things. Phone, email, and PDA. The challenge is that the new Treo 600 goes way beyond that with the camera, etc.

    The powers that be in this forum and the patrons of this forum need to make some decisions about the future. I am of the school of thought that we as the ultimate customers should hold HS and ultimately Palm accountable for their actions.

    In my personal opinion it is unacceptable for the Treo 600 to not have a 320x320 screen. I have heard the official excuse for his and I know as a matter of fact that it is not true. I was told the Treo was about making the best tradeoffs???? According to whom?

    As I mentioned I will be publishing my super detailed designs as soon as I get the chance. I ask that you all kindly reserve your judgment until you have had a chance to review my work product.

    Best regards,
    Jake
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  20. #40  
    well at least he met with you (even if might have been a waste of everyone's time - his and his team's, and yours).
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