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  1.    #81  
    If you have made it this far the first part of my Presentation material has been posted. You can view it at:
    http://www.treocentral.com/content/Stories/262-1.htm

    Or you can share your insight and comments at on my presentaion:
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...371#post234371
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  2. #82  
    I'll refer you to my most recent comments under the thread entitled: "JakeE - Let's get on with the Dance."

    -THP
    Think First, ask questions later!
  3. #83  
    Well, it looks like my supportive and "nice" comments (the entire thread begun by someone else actually) were suddenly removed from this board by the Treo Central Staff. Essentially, I expressed the opinion that Jeff Hawkiins ought NOT to be referenced at all with any of Jake's articles. Basically, an appeal for no more politics and to get back to the art and science of Handheld design. I for one am delighted not to see one mention of Hawkin's name in the first article released today. Let's hope it stays that way so this forum can get back to a focus on technology and not personalities.

    -THP
    Think First, ask questions later!
  4. #84  
    The entire thread that I was referring to above was moved over into the discussion area of Jake's 1st presentation.

    Well done Treo Central Administrator!

    -THP
    Think First, ask questions later!
  5. #85  
    Well said!!!
  6. #86  
    Well, MarkEagle's response to my comments speaks for itself. I'm wrong because:

    (1) He's in control and I'm not;

    (2) He is just following orders; and

    (3) If I don't like it, I can go to another playground.

    This isn't a response to my point, which is: vigorous substantive debate is not "personal abuse," and anyone who mistakes criticism of their publicly-espoused ideas for "personal abuse" is simply wrong.

    Let's not operate under any illusions here. A substantial part (if not the largest part) of what makes this site a viable (or at least attractice) commercial venture are the discussion forums, which provide far more substantive information than other parts of the site. We, the community that reads and responds, breathes content into the discussion forums. That community includes JakeE and MarkEagle, but also includes me, and Nautilus Man, and a lot of others who don't agree with JakeE's views and don't have a lot of appreciation for what he writes. We do not attack him personally when we attack his writing style, or its content.

    I suppose that JakeE posted his writings on this web site to be admired, and anyone who doesn't admire them can just remain silent. (Isn't that his point when he writes "If you don’t like my writing style or ideas, do us both a favor and ignore them. ") But that really wouldn't be a discussion, would it?


    Originally posted by MarkEagle
    It has nothing to do with anyone wanting "protection". And since I'm the one wearing the moderator hat, don't tell me I missed the point. Around here we don't tolerate personal attacks. Period. End of discussion.

    I'm not taking sides in this discussion. As I said, I haven't read all the posts, just enough to know it's time to step in.

    To be perfectly honest, I'm watching this thread at marcus' request. Since he's the boss, and it's his site, I abide by his wishes.
  7. #87  
    Censorship is a drag. It is probably more common today because many folks fear the vigorous back and forth. By engagement and cross-examination, ideas are sharpened and nonsense tends to get weeded out and fall away. Free and open discussion is always a "subjective" back and forth thing and it is easy to become afraid that the other members won't be able to discern the difference I guess.

    I find this site more useful and fun when things get more lively. I know that he seems to annoy many but guys like purpleX add diversity and sometimes brings a healthy edge to the conversations here.

    Let Jake speak publicly and play to the gallery any way he pleases. Accordingly, the gallery should be free to authentically react.

    Civility is required. Misplaced control over content is not.

    -THP
    Think First, ask questions later!
  8.    #88  
    Originally posted by Nautilus Man
    Censorship is a drag. It is probably more common today because many folks fear the vigorous back and forth. By engagement and cross-examination, ideas are sharpened and nonsense tends to get weeded out and fall away. Free and open discussion is always a "subjective" back and forth thing and it is easy to become afraid that the other members won't be able to discern the difference I guess.

    I find this site more useful and fun when things get more lively. I know that he seems to annoy many but guys like purpleX add diversity and sometimes brings a healthy edge to the conversations here.

    Let Jake speak publicly and play to the gallery any way he pleases. Accordingly, the gallery should be free to authentically react.

    Civility is required. Misplaced control over content is not.

    -THP
    Nautilus Man,

    I have NEVER been censored on this or any other site? Why??? Because I don’t attack people and try to harangue them for no reason.

    Do you think this forum should support anarchy and chaos? And speak of subjectivity; do you think that you have it all figured out and the rest of us should just cow tao to your capricious whims?

    I do not know what was censored and I do not know if the moderators on this forum receive income from their work but I doubt it. If they are censoring what you are saying and they are not being paid to do it that should tell you something.

    Why don’t you guys try saying something positive, and productive and I’ll bet you that you will not be censored.

    I’ll bet that if someone came into your home with a negative attitude and started attacking you personally you would not tolerate it.

    As I have stated before I would be willing to bet you 100 to 1 that many of the things that people have said to me in this forum they would never dream of saying in front of their mother or daughter.

    Try being positive and see where that gets you.

    Food for thought.

    Jake
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  9. #89  
    Originally posted by JakeE


    Nautilus Man,

    I have NEVER been censored on this or any other site? Why??? Because I don’t attack people and try to harangue them for no reason.
    That's pretty funny, since you started a whole thread attacking Jeff Hawkins for being rude to you.
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



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  10.    #90  
    Gfunkmagic,

    You know you bring up a fascinating point. I said that in my meeting with Jeff and Peter they were extremely rude, condescending and impolite, and that they seemed like sniveling hyenas with severe attention deficit disorder attacking me for no reason. That is honestly what they reminded me of. I remember once I saw a documentary on the discovery channel on hyenas and when hyenas go in for the kill they kind of loose their minds. Once I went on a shark feed in the South Pacific…same thing.

    I went in good faith to meet with Jeff and I felt like he attacked me without trying to understand me. I expressed my feelings in this forum and shared my perspective. I honestly felt like I was being attacked.

    Same thing here with many members. I feel like they are attaching me for no reason. I am not going to go so far as to say that they also remind me of sniveling hyenas with severe attentions deficit disorder, but I will say that I think it is an unproductive waste of their energy.

    So what gfunkmagic, now you want to point out my apparent hypocrisy? You want to crucify me to a cross with some nails. Is that your point here? If not what is your point?

    What happended to "better living through better technology"???

    Jake
    Last edited by JakeE; 08/27/2003 at 02:30 AM.
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  11. #91  
    Originally posted by JakeE
    ... many of the things that people have said to me in this forum they would never dream of saying in front of their mother or daughter.
    Jake, Jake, Jake,

    There you go again. There is NOTHING I have said to you in this forum that I wouldn't say in front of my mother. That's a dramatic sounding line for the gallery but it just doesn't apply to me.

    Re-read my comments again if you must. I have not said that you were ever censored on this site. I have not been censored either. My comments were merely in sympathetic response to Lawcat's expressed frustration over the way that warnings were given to him by MarkEagle. I think that MarkEagle was very authoritarian in making his warnings clear but I'll cut him slack because he's trying to do what he thinks is necessary even if the end result may cause restraint among some member's willingness to speak up. There is evidence of a real difference of opinion over the meaning of viable critique vs. personal attack. Who in their right mind would defend the empty headed right to attack others on this forum? I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally am not here to attack you for no reason. I have better things to do. My comments were over the "threat" of potential censorship. Not about actual censorship that had occurred.

    No need to overreact. You have well established yourself as a passionate and sensitive guy on this discussion forum. My final thoughts are to recommend that you thicken your skin a bit. Boldly post your stuff out here. Don't expect to control the follow up commentary whether folks like it or not though. I can appreciate your attachment to what people think to a point but there will always be those who may just not "get" it and remain skeptical.

    All power to you and all power to them.

    Positive and productive enough for you?

    -THP
    Last edited by Nautilus Man; 08/27/2003 at 02:55 AM.
    Think First, ask questions later!
  12. #92  
    I am an Exec. I don't have time for BS. I don't have time for a lot of flowery language. I doubt Hawkins does either as he has an entire Co to run, merge, & grow.

    I suspect he was very disappointed/uninterested in your presentation. To bad. But that's the way it goes.

    If you are going to try to swim with the sharks, don't complain to much if one bites you.

    Finally, one word of encouragement. Keep doing what you are doing. Chances are that one of your ideas will succeed, while most of them will fail. At least you are taking the risk to actually thinking, and sharing, while most folks here seem to be content with sitting on the sidelines and taking pot shots.

    I do think your article, which is entirely about your ideas, belongs on the discussion board though rather than on Op Ed.

    Just my two cents for this evening.

    Good Luck,

    HRB
  13. #93  
    Originally posted by JakeE
    Gfunkmagic,

    You know you bring up a fascinating point. I said that in my meeting with Jeff and Peter they were extremely rude, condescending and impolite, and that they seemed like sniveling hyenas with severe attention deficit disorder attacking me for no reason. That is honestly what they reminded me of. I remember once I saw a documentary on the discovery channel on hyenas and when hyenas go in for the kill they kind of loose their minds. Once I went on a shark feed in the South Pacific…same thing.

    I went in good faith to meet with Jeff and I felt like he attacked me without trying to understand me. I expressed my feelings in this forum and shared my perspective. I honestly felt like I was being attacked.

    Same thing here with many members. I feel like they are attaching me for no reason. I am not going to go so far as to say that they also remind me of sniveling hyenas with severe attentions deficit disorder, but I will say that I think it is an unproductive waste of their energy.

    So what gfunkmagic, now you want to point out my apparent hypocrisy? You want to crucify me to a cross with some nails. Is that your point here? If not what is your point?

    What happended to "better living through better technology"???

    Jake
    The point is that you probably would have gotten a much better response here if you had just focused on your observations on the meeting instead of including all the un-necessary attacks on JH. But by doing so you have shifted the focus away from your own ideas and you have caused uncertainty in the minds here of others regarding your own agenda. Calling JH and others here you criticise you as "sniveling hyenas" is extremely unprofesional, which is suprising considering your apparent credentials. As you may have guessed from my previous posts, I am certainly no fan of JH and have critisized him often for his past business decisions. However, I think it's unfair for you to attack him personally in this setting especially since he is not here to respond, nor do I think it is necessary that he should have to so. These issues combined with your rather puerile writing style and apparent inability to receive criticism has severely damaged any credibility you may have created with you initial article. This is unfortunate b/c I think you probably have alot of interesting and unique thoughts to share here with other users. I believe its is just as important to present yourself professionally as well as to have good ideas, but I don't think you've done particular well with the former...
    Last edited by Gaurav; 08/27/2003 at 03:22 AM.
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



    Please don't PM me about my avatar. For more info go here.

    Restore your Pre to factory settings using webos doctor and follow these instructions
  14.    #94  
    Gfunkmagic:

    You said:

    “The point is that you probably would have gotten a much better response here if you had just focused on your observations on the meeting instead of including all the un-necessary attacks on JH. But by doing so you have shifted the focus away from your own ideas and you have caused uncertainty in the minds here of others regarding your own agenda. Calling JH and others here you criticise you as "sniveling hyenas" is extremely unprofesional, which is suprising considering your apparent credentials.”

    “APPARENT CREDENTIALS?” DOESN’T IT MAKE YOU WONDER? I NEVER SAY ANYTHING BAD ABOUT ANYONE. I DON’T HAVE A MEAN BONE IN MY BODY. DON’T CONFUSE MY BEING A GENTLEMAN WITH BEING WEAK. AS A MATTER OF FACT IF YOU EXAMINE MY ORIGINAL POSTS YOU WILL SEE THAT I HAD NOTHING BY PRAISE AND ADORATION FOR JEFF. EITHER I AM HOLLUCINATING OR HE WAS THAT BAD.

    THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT I DON’T GIVE ANYBODY A HARD TIME AND I DON’T TAKE IT FROM ANYONE.

    “As you may have guessed from my previous posts, I am certainly no fan of JH. However, I think it's unfair for you to attack him personally in this setting especially since he is not here to respond, nor do I think it is necessary that he should have to so.”

    YOU ARE CORRECT; HE IS NOT HERE TO RESPOND. HE COULD IF HE CHOSE TO??? PERHAPS I DID NOT MISREAD HIM AFTER ALL. PERHAPS HE DOES VIEW HIS PATRONS WITH CONTEMPT. I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT IF SOMEONE MADE THE ACCUSATIONS I DID THAT I WOULD IMMEADIATELY TAKE REAL ACTION. I GUESS HE JUST DOES NOT CARE???

    “These issues combined with your rather puerile writing style and apparent inability to receive criticism has severely damaged any credibility you may have created with you initial article.”

    “PUERILE WRITING STYLE”??? LET’S SEE?! IS THAT A SLAP IN THE FACE, A CRACK IN THE JAW, OR YOUR KIND WAY OF DELICATELY COMPLIMENTING MY WRITING STYLE? WHAT MAKES YOU THINK I AM SEEKING CREDIBILITY??? I SHARED MORE INFO IN MY FIRST ARTICLE THAN YOU WERE ABLE TO COME UP WITH AND YOU HAVE YOUR OWN WEBSITE DIDICATED TO DOING SO. THAT’S RIGHT…I GOT THE SCOOP… I WENT AFTER IT AND ANSWERED MANY OF THE $64,000 QUESTOINS…AND SINCE YOU HAVE SO MUCH CREDIBLITY AND I DON’T, WHY DIDN’T YOU GO TALK TO JEFF HAWKINS AND REPORT BACK TO THIS FORUM???
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  15. #95  
    *Sigh*

    “APPARENT CREDENTIALS?” DOESN’T IT MAKE YOU WONDER? I NEVER SAY ANYTHING BAD ABOUT ANYONE. I DON’T HAVE A MEAN BONE IN MY BODY. DON’T CONFUSE MY BEING A GENTLEMAN WITH BEING WEAK. AS A MATTER OF FACT IF YOU EXAMINE MY ORIGINAL POSTS YOU WILL SEE THAT I HAD NOTHING BY PRAISE AND ADORATION FOR JEFF. EITHER I AM HOLLUCINATING OR HE WAS THAT BAD.
    Jake, isn't it ironic that you who once proclaimed himself the "President of the Jeff Hawkins Fan Club" to become so radically now his chief detractor on this site?! At first you were overly too positive in regards to JH and now it seems you have become overly too negative. You seem to take one extreme position and then swing in the opposite direction to the other extreme. Such drastic flip flops have got to be veiwed with skepticism IMO. Furthermore, when I mentioned your "apparent credentials", I was referring to the information 'readily seen' on your website (which btw seems pretty impressive). You shouldn't be so hypersensitive regarding a mere adjective!

    Anyway, you dodged my original point which I will restate: you should have focused on your own ideas instead of attacking JH which would have improved the feedback which you received...

    YOU ARE CORRECT; HE IS NOT HERE TO RESPOND. HE COULD IF HE CHOSE TO??? PERHAPS I DID NOT MISREAD HIM AFTER ALL. PERHAPS HE DOES VIEW HIS PATRONS WITH CONTEMPT. I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT IF SOMEONE MADE THE ACCUSATIONS I DID THAT I WOULD IMMEADIATELY TAKE REAL ACTION. I GUESS HE JUST DOES NOT CARE???
    It is absolutely preposterous that such a famous exec like JH should have to "defend" himself just b/c someone flamed him in an obscure forum. Jake, have you ever considered that companies like HS, Palm etc have regulations that bar them from posting in such forums? Have you even tried to contemplate the reasons for his reluctance to listen to your proposals and the various legal complexicities that could result from conflicts of posible intellectual property rights? Are you aware of various legal cases involving NTP, EPass etc? And if so, then wouldn't it behoove any exec involved in intellectual property to shield himself from unwanted "design proposals" that could hurt his company in the future? How do you now that HS may not have similar design concepts for future products, and why would they want to put themselves in a position that could be used to accuse them of stealing ideas?

    “PUERILE WRITING STYLE”??? LET’S SEE?! IS THAT A SLAP IN THE FACE, A CRACK IN THE JAW, OR YOUR KIND WAY OF DELICATELY COMPLIMENTING MY WRITING STYLE? WHAT MAKES YOU THINK I AM SEEKING CREDIBILITY??? I SHARED MORE INFO IN MY FIRST ARTICLE THAN YOU WERE ABLE TO COME UP WITH AND YOU HAVE YOUR OWN WEBSITE DIDICATED TO DOING SO. THAT’S RIGHT…I GOT THE SCOOP… I WENT AFTER IT AND ANSWERED MANY OF THE $64,000 QUESTOINS…AND SINCE YOU HAVE SO MUCH CREDIBLITY AND I DON’T, WHY DIDN’T YOU GO TALK TO JEFF HAWKINS AND REPORT BACK TO THIS FORUM???
    So are we now not alowed to critisize someone's writing style? LOL! I believe, as I've already stated, that you has been the unprofessional and immature in the style of your writing. Pesentation is just as important as content, and I believe by attacking JH in your presentation you have diminished the focus of your ideas. Furthermore, if you want people to take you seriously, then I imagine you want credibility. As far as myself, I'm not the one writing front page articles here on treocentral...

    Finally, goodthatway is NOT my site. It is in fact a wonderful site and I like to contribute there as often as I can and merely include it in my sig to inform others here of it.
    Last edited by Gaurav; 08/27/2003 at 04:59 AM.
    _________________
    aka Gfunkmagic

    Current device: Palm Pre
    Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600, Treo 650, Treo 700p, Axim X50v, Treo 800w



    Please don't PM me about my avatar. For more info go here.

    Restore your Pre to factory settings using webos doctor and follow these instructions
  16. #96  
    This never seems to end...this is like two little kids fighting back and forth.

    A couple things:

    1.) I read the articles posted on TC. The first page was a rehash of what was already posted in the threads.

    2.) The second page about BulletTrain was an ad for your conceptual software design. Okay....

    3.) The Batman picture was a bit dopey.

    Nothing that I would consider a full fledged article.

    Then I went to your site, and did a little reading. It was actually interesting. A couple observations.

    1.) Since you reference Speed Racer and were a fan, you get props in my book. Looks like I'll have to defend you once in a while now, since anyone who is down with the Mach 5 has a good soul. Still, if you say something like Chim-Chim, I will have to comment accordingly.

    2.) Like those JakeE Jeans...would like to get a pair and test them out. Fall '03 is here in a week...

    Constructive criticisms:

    1.) For all your talk of design, your web site violates many of your design principles. (Transitions, layout, non-functioning buttons, etc.) Most design people I know have fairly tight sites.

    2.) Talking about yourself in the third person is not a good practice to be in; tends to come off as egotistical, as does all the name dropping. If that is the desired effect, fine, but I don't think it is.

    As for this whole thread, everyone, including myself, needs to take a deep breath, exhale slowly, imagine themselves with some of those JakeEJean models, and get their refractory mellowness on.

    Let's get this back on track with talk of the Treo 600.
  17. #97  
    Originally posted by JakeE
    What happended to "better living through better technology"???
    It's alive and well at http://goodthatway.com

    That's my site, BTW. And in case anyone's interested, we have forums and I encourage disagreement in any and all ideas posted by me or anyone there. Only Ska (aka purpleX) has pushed me so far as to remove posts (there's a difference between disagreeing and then spending three pages rehashing the same disagreement without acknowledging any counterpoints made, but I digress).

    I see nothing wrong with pointing out the apparent hypocrisy of calling someone a "sniveling hyena" yet then setting up ground rules for what sort of feedback is acceptable. On that point, I'm not sure that I've really seen much negative feedback pointed at you that could be characterized as personal attacks. Most/all of it seemed to be "attacking" the ideas and not the person, which I see as a good thing.

    As I mentioned in the thread attached to the article about the BulletTrain concept, I commend you for dreaming up an idea and mocking up some graphics to help describe it. It's painful to have people pick it apart, but that's how life works. Pick yourself up, weed out the good from the bad (and by good, I don't mean positive comments, I mean valid criticisms), and improve your ideas.

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  18. #98  
    I'm done with this thread. These discussions are going nowhere, and don't represent the treocentral community well.
    -Michael Ducker
    TreoCentral Staff
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