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  1. #41  
    PurpleX, will you purchase a Treo 600 when it becomes available?
    go.digital
  2. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #42  
    I might or might not, convince me.
  3. #43  
    as much time as you spend on this forum...you might as well..you're gonna know more about this device than anyone on this board...
  4. #44  
    Originally posted by snahabed


    You are naive.

    First of all, I approve of the overall design of the Treo 600 -- otherwise, I wouldn't be reading these messageboards. But the fact that people buy Hawkins' spin about "being forced to sacrifice" a high-res screen, as if he were Solomon, is laughable.

    The man wasn't forced to do squat. These devices are going to be used for data/web. That's the primary reason I am interested in the unit. Who wants to view the web in grainy 12-bit color? I don't care if I get 15 minutes more battery time... I would guess most people charge their units every day.

    In other words, his excuse is bogus spin. He is doing what any red-blooded capitalist would do... get early adopters' money by selling first generation Treo 600s at a "premium price"... then somehow (as if by magic?) add a high-res screen for Rev B, thereby creating new demand. Do you really think a high-res screen would add $300 in cost? Uh no. But if you're spending $500 on a cell phone, an extra $50 or whatever really shouldn't be that big a deal.

    I mean, we all like most things about the Treo 600, but don't be gullible to think Handspring had a moral dilemma about the screen resolution. They didn't "choose" to go low-res for technical reasons. They did it so that Treo 600 owners will "just have to have" the Treo 610 or whatever it will be called.
    You call people naive, but I think a look in the mirror is more appropriate. It's obvious by your post that you have never done any product development, or run a business.

    The reasons, whether you like them or not, are legit. There are tradeoffs in every product design. For a phone-oriented (which the Treo is moving toward), battery life is critical. Hi-res screens, while slick, suck more power. Also, they cost more...and yes, another $50, or whatever the amount, does matter.

    Of course there will be a hi-res version down the road, but that's just the way things develop. You don't wait for the perfect prodcut before you release it, you just go with the 80% solution for your target market.

    While upsell to the next model is desirable, it is hardly the driving force behind not having a hi-res screen.
  5. #45  
    "..well well... lookie here, somebody lose his marble again."

    *Shakes head*

    "...even if you guise it with 'adult decorum', the talk is essentially the same. ie. My toy is better/faster/cooler than yours. Yes there is criteria, but what it comes down to it's still the same, how the device performs within given criteria."

    The attitude "my device is better than yours" is silly, childish and shows that the person just wants to prove they have something "better". "Look at these cool features!" is so much more productive. That's what I like to do and engage in debates about. But if I tell you a feature is cool, you have the right to agree or disagree and we can have a discussion. So do I.

    "If you are really not interested in finding out if your toy is really the best/latest/coolest you wouldn't chime in and get all work up about this or that feature arguments."

    Where did I say that I'm not interested in the coolest devices? That's the main reason I'm here! Do you even read what people write?

    "If you think treo 600 is the best toy in the world bar none, then you'll be just smirking and merrily go your way with the thought. But since you get all crazy when told it isn't the fastest/coolest/best, then well .... you know what you are thinking, it's pretty transparent."

    Who is "getting all crazy" here? Don't project yourself on others. Not everyone is that possessive and mindless about sticking to a device or a manufacturer. I'm annoyed at the behavior, not the devices. I couldn't care less about what you or anyone thinks of what I use. I am looking for the best device for me, always. Like I said before, if I find anything better than what I have, I'll drop it like a hot potato and move on.

    Do you do that?

    You never answered me anyway: what device(s) do you own and use? This is the third time I'm asking this question and I get no response.
    Last edited by silverado; 08/12/2003 at 01:20 PM.
  6.    #46  
    Originally posted by purpleX
    For simple IM, SIP like Ten-go will beat thumboard by wide margin since it behaves like T-9 but with qwerty layout. For longer passage fitaly is the current speed champion. The way I see it, it's not thumboard is better, but you haven't tried anything else beside thumboard. (which is fair enough since Palm SIP option is very primitive)

    anyway, about treo 600.

    SPV3 is ready for september launch in french. (funny how it comes out even earlier than treo 600 and with things that Handspring says is impossible/useless thing to do)

    talk time: 5 hours
    stand-by time: 100 hours
    vibration alarm: yes
    number of colors: 65536
    number of lines on the screen: 11
    resolution (pixels): 176x220
    Bluetooth: yes
    replaceable battery
    http://msmobiles.com/news.php/1156.html

    In the meantime and update of the mio 8380 is out already. Same release date it seems
    http://msmobiles.com/news.php/1154.html
    SIP if it means software input (I'm saying it does, because you didn't define it) denies feedback, means I have to dial the phone by looking at the device and probably using two hands. I've used graffiti and fitaly. Fitaly is great for the people that are really used to it and work at it. Give a casual user Fitaly and thumbboard, and thumbboard will win everytime.

    As to ten-go, you post no link to what it is, how it works, etc. and I know of nothing using it. I can't consider this an option without information about it. I'll assume it's pretty good because you say so though.

    There's no pictures to the first link and the second one doesn't seem to show any input method (just an ugly LCD display). I believe the treo talk time is rated at 6 hours, no camera (which admittedly is a toy), no mp3 player (which is pretty big, because then I have to spend another $150 for one of those). BT and the replaceable battery are two things that I've lived fine without. Screen seems nicer, but I'd have to see how bright it is, the Treo 600 is supposed to be insanely bright. Lastly, I don't read, write French, so it coming out earlier is irrelevant. If it comes out in the states earlier than the Treo 600 and works with Sprint's CDMA, then it's a dialog that worth keeping open.
  7.    #47  
    Originally posted by silverado

    I couldn't care less about what you or anyone thinks of what I use. I am looking for the best device for me, always. Like I said before, if I find anything better than what I have, I'll drop it like a hot potato and move on.
    That's what it comes down to. Everything else lacks the thumbboard or equivalent input method, phone form factor, standard (Palm, PocketPC, even Linux) OS, etc. I don't even care about the camera it's extra. The mp3 player is sweet and I'll find lots of use for that. I wish other people made more devices similar to the Treo, because I might go with a variation here or there. Currently there's really only one phone/pda combo that meets most of the things that I'd want it to do. Everything else falls far short.
  8. njchris's Avatar
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    475 Global Posts
    #48  
    Ahh so many threads with troll-feeding.
  9.    #49  
    yeah I know, I've read all the threads and are familar with purplex. Still it's a lively and sometimes productive debate (as long as people explain things like ten-go, whatever that is). Everyone will agree that every technology has pros and cons for every user and this discussion helps figure out why others might like a different combination. In the meantime it really hurts no one.
  10. #50  
    For all the talk about the sacrifices that had to be made for the sake of conserving battery consumption, and how important battery life is to a cell phone...I do have to wonder was it really worth the tradeoff of NOT including a replaceable battery? I know there's going to be a battery sled for those days you have to travel. But I wish I knew how much bigger it would have made the 600 if they had designed it with a replaceable battery. It would have been nice to have a cradle with your fully charged spare ready and waiting. (I feel that keenly with my Hitachi, which has a replaceable battery but no means of charging a spare outside of the device). Truly useful convergence sucks a lot of power. There's just no getting around that right now.

    I admit I have abandoned any idea of getting a 600 when it comes out. I will not give up my beautiful screen, for one thing. Battery consumption of my Hitachi is surprisingly good. Even with a large screen, it gets me through a whole day of browsing and talking and working & games, MP3's and usually about an hour's worth of e-book reading a day. But there were a couple of days of cutting it close, where I would have liked the spare battery and charging cradle for it.

    I kind of think the non-replaceable battery was a bad compromise to make. But then reading people literally screaming in CAPS that the 600 is a brick and too big to appeal to women and all, I don't think there's any way Handspring could have made everyone happy. Personally I think if anyone, man or woman, wants to sacrifice features, usability and functionality for "daintiness" then it's their choice and they'll have to live with the consequences.

    Oh and to some a thumb-board is a strong aspect of "usability" so you could show everyone here any number of excellent convergence phones that lack thumb-boards and it just isn't going to wash. The Treo is a thumb-board device. That adds size and has to be kept in the equation. I personally wish Handspring had chosen a Samsung i-500 kind of form factor with the thumb-board on the lower half of the clamshell.

    So Purplex, when you trot out devices that you think are superior, try to find some that integrate a thumboard somehow into the form factor. If you can find one, you would have my interest. I know you don't personally care for them, but think about your audience and what we keep insisting we want. Because I don't think you're going to convert anyone here to hate thumb-boards. So just humor us.
  11. #51  
    Originally posted by monkeywithacold


    Oh and to some a thumb-board is a strong aspect of "usability" so you could show everyone here any number of excellent convergence phones that lack thumb-boards and it just isn't going to wash. The Treo is a thumb-board device. That adds size and has to be kept in the equation. I personally wish Handspring had chosen a Samsung i-500 kind of form factor with the thumb-board on the lower half of the clamshell.
    This would have been the worst things they could do.
    Clamshells are horrible designs for PDA/phones. Having to open a device to do something with it (inc. the Treo 300) is a hassle. I think they made the right move with the 600. One handed operations is the key.

    Clamshells are all the rage now, but I think that will slowly go away.

    Thumbboards will become more and more prelevant...I'm not met one person who has used a thumbboard for a short period of time, and then wanted to go back to graffitti.
  12. #52  
    Clamshells are horrible designs for PDA/phones. Having to open a device to do something with it (inc. the Treo 300) is a hassle. I think they made the right move with the 600. One handed operations is the key.

    Amen to that. I've never understood the point of adding an unnecessary moving part to a handheld device, especially a phone. I hate having to open a phone just to use it.

    Clamshells are all the rage now, but I think that will slowly go away.

    Agreed.
  13. #53  
    Well then that's just me, then. I personally don't mind flipping open a device to use it. One extra motion isn't going to bother me that much as I'm already used to that with the leather case that covers my G1000. And it makes it more pocketable in some respects. I respect others don't like this form factor and prefer to be able to see their information at a glance.
  14. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #54  
    All big phones in the future will most likely be flip. flip phone can accomodate bigger motherboard since it has far bigger surface area than candybar. Observe how big flip phone is when opened. Heat dissipation, interferance, surface for buttons all conspire against candybar.

    And flipphone are very compact when folded. For quick info access, company just add secon screen in front, some add buttons, even second camera to increase functionality when in folded mode.

    p505 (dual screen, dual camera, single slot, yet shorter and thinner when in folded mode.)
    http://k-tai.impress.co.jp/cda/artic...top/15230.html
  15. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #55  
    Originally posted by monkeywithacold
    For all the talk about the sacrifices that had to be made for the sake of conserving battery consumption, and how important battery life is to a cell phone...I do have to wonder was it really worth the tradeoff of NOT including a replaceable battery? I know there's going to be a battery sled for those days you have to travel. But I wish I knew how much bigger it would have made the 600 if they had designed it with a replaceable battery. It would have been nice to have a cradle with your fully charged spare ready and waiting. (I feel that keenly with my Hitachi, which has a replaceable battery but no means of charging a spare outside of the device). Truly useful convergence sucks a lot of power. There's just no getting around that right now.

    I admit I have abandoned any idea of getting a 600 when it comes out. I will not give up my beautiful screen, for one thing. Battery consumption of my Hitachi is surprisingly good. Even with a large screen, it gets me through a whole day of browsing and talking and working & games, MP3's and usually about an hour's worth of e-book reading a day. But there were a couple of days of cutting it close, where I would have liked the spare battery and charging cradle for it.

    I kind of think the non-replaceable battery was a bad compromise to make. But then reading people literally screaming in CAPS that the 600 is a brick and too big to appeal to women and all, I don't think there's any way Handspring could have made everyone happy. Personally I think if anyone, man or woman, wants to sacrifice features, usability and functionality for "daintiness" then it's their choice and they'll have to live with the consequences.

    Oh and to some a thumb-board is a strong aspect of "usability" so you could show everyone here any number of excellent convergence phones that lack thumb-boards and it just isn't going to wash. The Treo is a thumb-board device. That adds size and has to be kept in the equation. I personally wish Handspring had chosen a Samsung i-500 kind of form factor with the thumb-board on the lower half of the clamshell.

    So Purplex, when you trot out devices that you think are superior, try to find some that integrate a thumboard somehow into the form factor. If you can find one, you would have my interest. I know you don't personally care for them, but think about your audience and what we keep insisting we want. Because I don't think you're going to convert anyone here to hate thumb-boards. So just humor us.
    lol.
    no, no matter how usefull anybody thinks a qwerty thumboard is. I really think it'll go the way of the dinosours. It doesn't make sense from form factor point of view. It will be replaced by software in one form or another. At most it will be a peripherals instead of integrated. An ultimate communicator/smartphone to me would be completely voice driven and single thumb operated. I'll skip the keyboard thanks.

    PS. PPC PE 2k3 kernel has a tweaked up power management, so it should improved battery live somehow when it finally come out. (whenever it come out...)
  16. #56  
    Originally posted by purpleX
    All big phones in the future will most likely be flip. flip phone can accomodate bigger motherboard since it has far bigger surface area than candybar. Observe how big flip phone is when opened. Heat dissipation, interferance, surface for buttons all conspire against candybar.

    And flipphone are very compact when folded. For quick info access, company just add secon screen in front, some add buttons, even second camera to increase functionality when in folded mode.

    p505 (dual screen, dual camera, single slot, yet shorter and thinner when in folded mode.)
    http://k-tai.impress.co.jp/cda/artic...top/15230.html
    Big phones are not the future...

    I will bet a serving of crow that in 3 year, flips will be in the decline.

    The biggest problems with candybar phone sizes is batteries. These will improve, leading to smaller phones. (see Sanyo 6000 series, on of the most amazing phones ever put out).

    Why have the second screen in front? That's nice, but it just leads to more stuff on the outside, just like a candybar.

    Time will tell, but for true PDA/phones, candybar is the future.
  17. #57  
    Originally posted by purpleX


    lol.
    no, no matter how usefull anybody thinks a qwerty thumboard is. I really think it'll go the way of the dinosours. It doesn't make sense from form factor point of view. It will be replaced by software in one form or another. At most it will be a peripherals instead of integrated. An ultimate communicator/smartphone to me would be completely voice driven and single thumb operated. I'll skip the keyboard thanks.

    PS. PPC PE 2k3 kernel has a tweaked up power management, so it should improved battery live somehow when it finally come out. (whenever it come out...)
    You are dead wrong.

    Again, a serving of crow if thumbbaords are the defacto in 3 years.

    Reason? We are human, and are trained to use the interfaces for decades. Following your logic, all laptop keyboards should be membrances and software driven...they aren't and won't be for decades (if not hundreds) of years. Voice recognition will be here (99.9% effectively) before keyboards go away.

    Voice and a single thumbpad may work for a phone, but not a pda/productivity device.
  18. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #58  
    Originally posted by mikec

    You are dead wrong.


    Reason? We are human, and are trained to use the interfaces for decades. Following your logic, all laptop keyboards should be membrances and software driven...they aren't and won't be for decades (if not hundreds) of years. Voice recognition will be here (99.9% effectively) before keyboards go away.
    Oh and didn't they insist grafitti as new effective form of PDA input, and people actually using it for awhile. And now It start to receed, even in Palm world with Sony's introduction of dacume.

    Interface come and go, hell they even think rotary interface in the phone will stay forever, but now even buttons will go the way of dodo in things like "push to talk" or IM.

    By big phone I meant high end smartphones, instead of traditional wireless.

    For thumboard contender do check contender designs and solutions plus what's the overall trend in smartphone world.

    In 3 years? Will there still be Palm, let alone treo?
  19. #59  
    Originally posted by purpleX


    Oh and didn't they insist grafitti as new effective form of PDA input, and people actually using it for awhile. And now It start to receed, even in Palm world with Sony's introduction of dacume.

    Interface come and go, hell they even think rotary interface in the phone will stay forever, but now even buttons will go the way of dodo in things like "push to talk" or IM.

    By big phone I meant high end smartphones, instead of traditional wireless.

    For thumboard contender do check contender designs and solutions plus what's the overall trend in smartphone world.

    In 3 years? Will there still be Palm, let alone treo?
    Yes, in 3 years, Palm will still exist...Sony has seen to that.

    Interfaces come and go, but this is about time.
    Keyboards have been around for over 100 years.
    It's going to take a long time for that to change.

    In the meanwhile, products that offer the most will win out.
    I predict the Treo 600 will be a huge hit, mainly because of the form factor, thumbboard, and the speed of Sprint's network (which will get faster next year)

    Graffiti is fine for an occasional note.

    Doing email and IM? Fuggetaboutit...
    Thumboards are the way. And that's what the youth will want.
  20. #60  
    Voice input is fine as an extra, Purplex, but what are you going to do when you are someplace where you don't want to be talking out loud to your device? Or if background noise is too heavy. One-button thumbing--if that's anything like the input on most cell phones--don't you find that annoying and time consuming to select text that way? Of all the existing input methods available on devices currently on the market, I'm finding the thumb-board works best for me...personally. I don't really know what I'll prefer in the future. It will be interesting to see what comes out and surprises me. I don't like to rule out any ideas or possibilities.

    Hmm...I don't have any reason to think the flip form is any more a fad than the thumb-board is. Just like thumb-boards, it has its fans and detractors. I think it could have advantages if you want to put a sizable screen into a compact form AND leave room for something like a thumboard and/or even game controllers if incorporating better gaming features into convergence devices proves to be a big hit. You might end up with something a bit like the GBA SP, but hopefully bit narrower.

    Oh and may as well ask now, Purplex, why are you called "Ska"? I've been wondering that for awhile now.

    Oops, sorry we're way off topic now.
    Last edited by monkeywithacold; 08/15/2003 at 03:43 PM.
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