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  1. #21  
    Originally posted by robber
    I am suprised that the GSM version will not be able to do edge. The service has already rolled out in Indianapolis via Cingular and seems to be well in the pipeline for T-mobile and ATT. An edge enabled 600 would make the gsm version a lot more compelling to me. The CDMA would seem stupid...

    In addition, once edge service is rolled out (say 1yr from now) the gsm treo will seem "old".

    Maybe one of the potential "feature rich" updated models follwing the initial release will do edge...

    -rob
    I agree. I think next year's model (if the company survives till then) would probably do EDGE, have high resolution screen, built-in BT, etc.

    I think Handspring is smart to come to market early with a feature set that is easier to build, will satisfy many and at relatively reasonable prices, rather than jam-packing the device with features that (especially for EDGE) won't be used for the (vast?) majority of the users, deal with so many new potential technical problems and have to sell at high prices.
  2. #22  
    Originally posted by jakilw
    A question to those that will buy the GSM version(RayUSA): Which carrier will you choose?
    I have been looking at AT&T and have heard some very good things about their customer support and services. Any of you have suggestions or advice from your experiences regarding which GSM carrier to choose?

    Thanks!

    RayUSA
  3. #23  
    Originally posted by RayUSA


    I have been looking at AT&T and have heard some very good things about their customer support and services. Any of you have suggestions or advice from your experiences regarding which GSM carrier to choose?

    Thanks!

    RayUSA
    I have been with T-Mobile for about 18 months and I am quite happy with them.
  4. #24  
    I haven't seen any reason to believe the Treo 600 would have better CDMA performance than my current 300, so I'm going to have to get the GSM version. Or maybe none of the above.

    The speed issue is irrelevant to me; 56K versus peak 144K. I've measured my Treo 300 bandwidth in my software and it's no faster than 6K/sec anyways when I'm doing things like downloading mail. With the improved processor of the 600 that will likely improve.. but that's not including the other things which cause delays on the CDMA network.

    How many times a day do I wait 20 seconds for it to connect to vision (at least 6). And how many times a day does it have to reboot because of busy network (typical 3). And how much time during the day does my 300 spend getting recharged due to turbo drain (two charges req per day with near zero usage, just some mail). Actually today I had to charge three times.. I forgot I plugged it into the car charger during a road trip.

    I will miss the cheaper bill, and the excellent voice command. But I cannot buy another CDMA device until the team commits to improving real-world issues.
  5. #25  
    Potatoho:

    Can you please clarify... 56K and 144K are kilobits per second (kbps). What is the 6K figure that you mentioned? Do you mean you're getting an average of 6 kilobytes per second(KBps)? That's equivalent to ~60kbps, which is not too shabby actually.

    With GPRS, I believe I currently get around 3KBps, which is low. However, the 600 allows more channels which should boost this number up if the carriers support it.

    I still think GSM is a good deal with true always on, an international standard, calls come through while exchanging data, SMS, etc, in addition to unlimited data with T-Mobile (with supposedly no restrictions on laptop use).
    Last edited by silverado; 08/05/2003 at 03:13 AM.
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    #26  
    Looking to get whichever version Sprint PCS uses...
    John 3:16-18

    Handspring Visor Prism w/Digital Link -> Palm Treo 600 -> Sprint PPC 6700 -> Palm Centro -> Blackberry Tour -> Blackberry Bold 9780 -> Blackberry Torch -> Palm Treo 755p -> BlackBerry Bold 9930
  7. #27  
    Originally posted by silverado
    Potatoho:

    Can you please clarify... 56K and 144K are kilobits per second (kbps). What is the 6K figure that you mentioned? Do you mean you're getting an average of 6 kilobytes per second(KBps)? That's equivalent to ~60kbps, which is not too shabby actually.

    With GPRS, I believe I currently get around 3KBps, which is low. However, the 600 allows more channels which should boost this number up if the carriers support it.

    I still think GSM is a good deal with true always on, an international standard, calls come through while exchanging data, SMS, etc, in addition to unlimited data with T-Mobile (with supposedly no restrictions on laptop use).
    One kilobit per second transfers 1/8 of a kilobyte. So if he's getting 6kB/s, he's getting 48kbps. Still not bad, but not the hype of the 144 kbps that Vision is capable of at peak speeds. For that, we'd be able to download at 18kB/s. Another thing to keep in mind is that not only is the actual speed limited by the CPU of the Treo, but also by the software that's doing the downloading. The Palm browsers and e-mail clients just aren't that fast. Those who use their Treos with a laptop will undoubtedly get much faster speeds. There's still the bottleneck of having to go through the Treo, but now you're downloading data with IE, Outlook, etc. Hopefully the Treo 600 with its improved hardware AND software will help increase overall speeds on Vision.
  8. #28  
    I've heard the claim that 140 kbps is achievable with CDMA, too. In my experience, wandering suburban Long Island NY with a 'stock' Treo 300, I've never seen rates that "felt" much higher than a 9600 BPS telephone modem.

    Of course, your mileage may vary.

    I think a good part of the problem is the somewhat anemic Dragonball CPU, and I'm hopeful that the Palm 5.x devices will do better here.

    But I think anyone who expects to consistently get ISDN speeds is in for a rude awakening.

    IMHO, if you're painting 160x160 screens, the difference betweeen 56 kbs and 140 kbps is never going to be significant, or even noticeable.

    OTOH, if you're downloading MP3s a ~2.5x improvement would be welcome. Not my intended use, however.

    From back when I worked for a CDMA company (proprietary, not Qualcomm-style), I remember that (and this is definitely an oversimplification) range, data rate, and cell congestion taken together were a constant. Increase one, one of the others must go down. So if you're near a quiet cell, you'd achieve the advertised rate. If you're in a fringe area on a busy cell your rate will be lower.

    But again, I think this is all academic when you're talking to the radio through a 33 mhz 16-bit processor saddled with numerous layers of object-oriented code. (Of course, it could be worse. It could be CE<g>) But that's why I'm excited about the higher performance of OS 5.0; it might actually get us to the point where the radio channel performance matters<g>.

    That all said, I'm definitely going GPRS.

    -lr
    _lr_ at yahoo.com
  9. #29  
    Originally posted by letsgoflyers81


    One kilobit per second transfers 1/8 of a kilobyte. So if he's getting 6kB/s, he's getting 48kbps.

    ...
    Not quite. With protocol overhead, it's usually more accurate to figure 10 bits/second for every 1 byte/second. For example, with a great 56kbps modem connection, you usually net 5.6 KBps. That's why I said he is doing ~60kbps ("~" for approximation).

    Protocol overhead referes to data that needs to be transferred but that is really not part of what you (as the end user) actually want. It's information, control data, etc, that allows the two sides to continue talking.


    Another thing to keep in mind is that not only is the actual speed limited by the CPU of the Treo, but also by the software that's doing the downloading. The Palm browsers and e-mail clients just aren't that fast. Those who use their Treos with a laptop will undoubtedly get much faster speeds. There's still the bottleneck of having to go through the Treo, but now you're downloading data with IE, Outlook, etc. Hopefully the Treo 600 with its improved hardware AND software will help increase overall speeds on Vision.
    It's really not that the email programs he is using arent' fast. Remember that protocol overhead I mentioned above? A protocol like POP3 or IMAP (which run over other protocols like TCP/IP), have high overhead, which means the two sides talk to each other a lot about what they are transfering. With email messages being typically small, protocol data is high compared to actual user data. In fact, having said all this, if Potatoho is averaging 6KBps overall for his email, the connection he is working with is probably faster than 60kbps.
    Last edited by silverado; 08/05/2003 at 08:08 AM.
  10. #30  
    I will continue to use CDMA. If/when I travel overseas, I can rent a phone. It is pretty infrequent for me.

    Regarding the data speed rates for CDMA, particularly on Sprint's Vision network, I think we need to take the Treo out of the equation. Since the processor of the T300 (or 270) is pretty slow, graphics tend to render slowly and that is why you dont see really fast data downloads. If I compare my old Samung i300 (no 3G) to my Treo300 (3G), the results are unbelievable. I mostly use data on my phone for downloading email. Downloading on the non 3G phone was painfully slow. A few weeks ago I was in NY and downloaded well over 100 emails in less than 4 minutes. I was totally amazed. It would have taken 20-30 minutes on the i300.

    I also have a Vision card for my laptop (a Novatel card). I use it quite a bit and the speed on Sprint's vision network is great. I can consistantly get 120K (using 2-wire's speed test). I check it pretty often. While it is not as fast as my DSL at home or the T1 at the office, it is not nearly as painful as a standard 56K dialup connection.

    The data aspects of Sprint's network alone will keep me a dedicated CDMA customer.
    Carl
  11. #31  
    The sprint model "Robin" is way ugly.. I'm all about the GSM/GPRS version
  12. #32  
    Originally posted by silverado
    .. if Potatoho is averaging 6KBps overall for his email, the connection he is working with is probably faster than 60kbps.
    I'll have to make some more measurements. My 6Kbyte/sec measurement was a one-way receive stream from my web server. That's how I get my mail, via a single HTTP request.

    I'm trying to get some measurements now, but it's going to take a little while.
  13. #33  
    My tests are just for novelty purposes. I have an app I wrote which downloads information from my web server. On my web server I am using tcpflow to capture the information which is being sent to the device, so I know how many bytes were sent. I let it go for around 3MB and timed it.

    My first test. Downloading 3,022,246 bytes took 762 seconds, which works out to 3966 bytes/sec. That was ideal conditions however, sitting on a window sill.

    Second test. 3,011,248 bytes took 694 seconds, which works out to 4338 bytes/sec.

    The 6Kbytes/sec I mentioned in my earlier message was with zlib compression, forgot to mention that. I measured that a while ago by using the source file size and how long it took to transfer. Since that didn't include protocol overhead it could have been a bit higher.
  14. #34  
    Thanks for everyone's feedback about carriers. I'm considering T-Mobile now based on your comments, but still trying to decide.

    I just checked out Consumer Reports ratings (www.consumerreports.org) on cellular phone service providers and found some very useful information. It even breaks the information down by city. Here's a summary of the ratings. Just as I suspected... Sprint was consistently the lowest!

    Company
    Satisfaction Level (range of user scores): (High - Low) Comments

    Verizon Wireless
    72 69 Consistently at the top of the Ratings. One of the better companies for customer support. No noteworthy service problems.

    AT&T Wireless
    69 63 One of the better companies for customer support. Overloaded circuits in three cities; Otherwise, middle-of-the-road performance.

    Nextel
    67 62 Availability of service an issue in New York and Los Angeles. Most billing problems. Low score for customer support.

    T-Mobile
    67 62 Connection problems in Chicago and New York. One of the better companies for customer support. Company formerly known as VoiceStream.

    Cingular
    67 54 The greatest variation in scores. Problems with overloaded circuits. Low score for customer support.

    Sprint PCS
    65 58 Worst customer support. Dropped calls an issue in five of six areas.

    RayUSA
    Last edited by RayUSA; 08/06/2003 at 10:15 PM.
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