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  1.    #1  
    Has anyone seen the phonescoop listing of the new BB 7230?

    http://www.phonescoop.com/phones/phone.php?id=331

    Look pretty familiar huh?! In fact check out a comparison of the dimensions:

    Treo 600: 4.41" x 2.26" x 0.87"
    BB 7230: 4.40" x 2.90" x 0.94"

    The 7320 doesn't look quite as striking, but there also is no massive antenna protuding out of it either!

    Any thoughts?
  2. #2  
    gfunkmagic:

    You are the man!

    But I think you are drawing a false analogy. The RIM does not have a camera or MP3 capability and I believe you can only use the phone with a headset????? Plus the RIM is significantly wider and it does not have a 5 way nav button or 8 bazillion legacy apps that can run on it.

    It is going to be a long, long summer!!!

    What do you think?

    Jake
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  3. #3  
    Originally posted by gfunkmagic
    Has anyone seen the phonescoop listing of the new BB 7230?

    http://www.phonescoop.com/phones/phone.php?id=331

    Look pretty familiar huh?! In fact check out a comparison of the dimensions:

    Treo 600: 4.41" x 2.26" x 0.87"
    BB 7230: 4.40" x 2.90" x 0.94"

    The 7320 doesn't look quite as striking, but there also is no massive antenna protuding out of it either!

    Any thoughts?
    Yes, I've seen this before. Although the dimesions might be close, the proportions are such that this looks so much wider than the 600 to look like a normal phone. I don't see it as a threat to the Treo, especially that the later has Palm OS 5 and all the other capabilities.
  4. #4  
    Ahem - the new RIMM model is already FCC approved (May).

    As such, it seems "more correct" to say the TREO 600 is a clone of it, IMHO.
  5. njchris's Avatar
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    #5  
    How much software does the Blackberry OS have for it compared to Palm? Can this device have programs installed?

    Unless it's cost is signifigantly lower, why would someone want this over a Treo or PPC-phone?
  6. #6  
    Originally posted by SeldomVisitor
    Ahem - the new RIMM model is already FCC approved (May).

    As such, it seems "more correct" to say the TREO 600 is a clone of it, IMHO.
    I'm too lazy to search myself, has the Treo600 received FCC approval as of yet?
    Carl
  7. #7  
    > I'm too lazy to search myself, has the Treo600 received FCC
    > approval as of yet?

    Not overtly - It's possible, maybe, that they have been approved covertly.

    Maybe.

    Go here:

    -- http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/...ericSearch.cfm

    and enter Grantee Code o8f to check.
  8. #8  
    Originally posted by JakeE
    I believe you can only use the phone with a headset?????
    That's not true. You can use it like a normal candy-bar style phone.
  9. #9  
    Originally posted by njchris
    Unless it's cost is signifigantly lower, why would someone want this over a Treo or PPC-phone?
    Because of email. Blackberry email absolutely humiliates anything the Treo has to offer. If you buy a Treo you either have to have a desktop client running all the time or somehow convince your tech guys to install a server version of some random software. Many companies already have Blackberry software running and running (relatively) flawlessly. And that's without even considering the superior device handling of incoming and outgoing email.
  10. #10  
    I also think we have to remember that the Blackberry solution overall is a combo of the software that gets installed on the company servers (most commonly Exchange), as well as the device itself. Contrast that with the Treo, which is just a device - no server software.
    That's why you've seen all those announcements over the last day or so about Good and the like - to really compete with Blackberry's overall offering, the Treo needs to have a robust server component. Where Blackberry/RIM has an advantage over Handspring/Treo is that the Blackberry folks supply everything - no cobbling together a server solution plus a device. They do it all.
    On the other hand, you might say that Handspring's path gives more options - you can use Visto's server solution now to do much the same thing Blackberry does, and soon to be able to use Good. (and I think that Business Connection also has a server side as well - and that service is run off software from Seven - www.seven.com) - so there are more choices with Handspring/Treo.
    Interesting times - I remember back in my Palm III days, trying to get my e-mail with that old snap-on-the-bottom modem, and having the hardest time. We've come a long way babeeeeeee!
  11. #11  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    Because of email. Blackberry email absolutely humiliates anything the Treo has to offer. If you buy a Treo you either have to have a desktop client running all the time or somehow convince your tech guys to install a server version of some random software.
    That's not true. Of course it is possible to use one of many POP3 or IMAP clients available to read email, one ore more of each will come bundled with the software. For example, I use SnapperMail, which is a superb email client for the Palm, to read my personal and corporate email (securely).

    KRamsauer: I know you were probably only talking about push mail in this context but you didn't make that clear in this instance. I didn't want to leave that statement as is because it could lead the uninformed into thinking that it's hard to read email with Treo when it's really a breeze.
  12. #12  
    Originally posted by silverado

    KRamsauer: I know you were probably only talking about push mail in this context but you didn't make that clear in this instance. I didn't want to leave that statement as is because it could lead the uninformed into thinking that it's hard to read email with Treo when it's really a breeze.
    It's a combination of the push aspect and others. You don't have to worry about connections on a Blackberry. You don't have to wait for it to connect, poll, send, disconnect, search for the network, anything. It has the effect of making the whole wireless aspect transparent. You don't even think about a "network" or wireless "service." You just know that if you type and email and hit send, it will arrive on the other end. Additionally you know that if you are sent a message, it arrives. With Snapper (it is actually checking email right now for me) you have to sit there and watch as a connection is made, and then it has to go and check for the mail, all the while you have to sit there with your thumb up your nose. If the connection doesn't go through, you have to do the whole darn thing over again. I'm telling you this doesn't happen on a Blackberry and is reason enough for owning one over a Treo.

    You're right though, you can read email on a Treo and Snapper makes it about as good as it can get, but it cannot approach Blackberry because of the network.
  13. #13  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    It's a combination of the push aspect and others. You don't have to worry about connections on a Blackberry. You don't have to wait for it to connect, poll, send, disconnect, search for the network, anything. It has the effect of making the whole wireless aspect transparent. You don't even think about a "network" or wireless "service." You just know that if you type and email and hit send, it will arrive on the other end. Additionally you know that if you are sent a message, it arrives. With Snapper (it is actually checking email right now for me) you have to sit there and watch as a connection is made, and then it has to go and check for the mail, all the while you have to sit there with your thumb up your nose. If the connection doesn't go through, you have to do the whole darn thing over again. I'm telling you this doesn't happen on a Blackberry and is reason enough for owning one over a Treo.

    You're right though, you can read email on a Treo and Snapper makes it about as good as it can get, but it cannot approach Blackberry because of the network.
    But blackberry is now running on the exact same networks, so it too runs into the same challenges. The mobitex network which BB still runs has no voice, so yes, when you click send it shoots it out and normally e-mails are recieved fairly fast, but that's because it didn't have voice to contend with. As far as I know, no carrier in the U.S. is supporting simultanious voice and data, so the 7230 or any RIM device on CDMA/GPRS will still only connect at certain times throughout the day. This is the exact same way Good/BCEE and all the others work. I can set my Treo 300 with BCEE to send and recieve automatically as quick as every 15 minutes, or I can force it if I want something before that. This is the same way my friends' Verizon and T-Mobile BB devices work. If it didn't delay the send and receive you'd miss so many calls that it would be useless for voice since the data session would be pinging so often. At least that's the case with me and the amount of e-mails I get.

    You're comparing e-mail software from BB with a network, it's not the same. Put same BB software on the the same network as Good's and Seven's and you have the same timing issues with sending and receiving. It would be very possible for the Good and Seven to change the software to send and receive just like BB does on Mobitex, but that defeats the whole purpose of using the device as a phone if it's constantly doing data.

    nrosser: Blackberry doesn't supply the network, sure you can buy the server and device from RIM but you still have to cut the carrier a seperate check every month. Sprint is a one stop shop. You can buy the device, network usage, and the software and it's all packaged up nicely on a single bill.
  14. #14  
    Thanks, howensby. That makes sense. I went through too many bouts of this push/Blackberry vs periodic fetch that I almost don't get into it anymore (but I guess I am again ). In the last such exchange I posted the information from Blackberry's website about the benefit of their solution and nowhere did it say that they have immediate delivery.

    I won't repeat the arguments I made saying that periodic fetch results in effectively the same practical user benefit for most cases.

    I still believe that the most gain would be obtained if the Treo 600 did this fetching truely in the background. That would not solve the voice vs data contention, but it will make the user experience MUCH better because the email software would not:

    a) take over the the device when fetching
    b) indefinitely postpone fetching the mail if you are using another app (even one that doesn't need voice or data)
    c) (maybe) cause the screen to come on when fetching while the device is not in use. This could mean that you could have a fetch frequency that is, say, 5 minutes without using up so much battery. Keep in mind that with GPRS networks, voice calls can come in during the data session.

    All this makes email delivery much more predictable and seemless, which is what's sorely missing on Palm devices. The "instantanious" delivery of mail, to the extent that it still exists, is over-rated, IMO. That's probably why even Blackberry's marketing material doesn't talk about it anymore.
    Last edited by silverado; 07/15/2003 at 01:24 PM.
  15. #15  
    If I'm not mistaken then Palm has reached an agreement with RIM to use their technology. But I don't know about a simular agreement between Handspring and RIM. Still, Handspring and Palm will probably be one company in fall 2003 and that'll open the door to Blackberry style push email on a treo.

    Or doesn't it ...

    andreas
    treopolis -the German treo site

    Now in beta testing: treopolis 2.0
  16. #16  
    TreoMail operates in the background, for the most part. It will check mail while you're in another app (meaning - it's not obvious to the user), and will only alert you if you have new mail. Of course, it can't check mail if the radio is active on a call, but I really do like the 'under-the-covers' functionality of TreoMail.
    Also, if the Treo is idle, you don't even know it's checking mail - just does it without activating the screen, etc - I dig it.
  17. #17  
    Originally posted by nrosser
    TreoMail operates in the background, for the most part. It will check mail while you're in another app (meaning - it's not obvious to the user), and will only alert you if you have new mail. Of course, it can't check mail if the radio is active on a call, but I really do like the 'under-the-covers' functionality of TreoMail.
    Also, if the Treo is idle, you don't even know it's checking mail - just does it without activating the screen, etc - I dig it.
    Wow! That's awesome!

    I recently posted my suspicion that it did that but I didn't get any confirmation then. No wonder, however, since it was a "to push or not to push debate" burried in a totally unrelated thread.

    TreoMail was written by Visto, which is one of the three companies whose solutions will be used with the 600. At least to me, this makes all this news about the different email possibilities even more exciting. If this is what these email clients will be doing, this would be awesome.

    It's also a big plus on the side of the GSM models, since incoming phone calls can interrupt GPRS data.
    Last edited by silverado; 07/15/2003 at 02:15 PM.
  18. #18  
    I wanted to add my agreement about POP mail over a Treo. I have a 180 and get my mail just fine, thank you, with Eudora. I can access both my personal and corporate mail, via Exchange's POP functionality.

    The odd part about this is that we have web access via Exchange, but I can't use it because it requires javascript (blah).

    I don't have a huge problem with pull vs push so Blackberry doesn't seem all that attractive to me. In fact, I'm researching PDA-phones for corporate use and the Blackberry looks like a PITA that requires an extra server and/or software to implement.

    Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
  19. #19  
    Originally posted by silverado
    Thanks, howensby. That makes sense. I went through too many bouts of this push/Blackberry vs periodic fetch that I almost don't get into it anymore (but I guess I am again ). In the last such exchange I posted the information from Blackberry's website about the benefit of their solution and nowhere did it say that they have immediate delivery.

    I won't repeat the arguments I made saying that periodic fetch results in effectively the same practical user benefit for most cases.

    I still believe that the most gain would be obtained if the Treo 600 did this fetching truely in the background. That would not solve the voice vs data contention, but it will make the user experience MUCH better because the email software would not:

    a) take over the the device when fetching
    b) indefinitely postpone fetching the mail if you are using another app (even one that doesn't need voice or data)
    c) (maybe) cause the screen to come on when fetching while the device is not in use. This could mean that you could have a fetch frequency that is, say, 5 minutes without using up so much battery. Keep in mind that with GPRS networks, voice calls can come in during the data session.

    All this makes email delivery much more predictable and seemless, which is what's sorely missing on Palm devices. The "instantanious" delivery of mail, to the extent that it still exists, is over-rated, IMO. That's probably why even Blackberry's marketing material doesn't talk about it anymore.
    Not that I can say much but I'm testing the new BCEE client and I think you'll be very happy with points a, b, and c.
  20. #20  
    You can get TreoMail now - it's out and working, and has been for some time. The under the covers mode was released in their 1.5 version, like late last year. I had been using BizConn personal edition, and in my opinion, TreoMail blows it away, in all aspects.

    Interestingly, I also tried Visto's 'personal edition' client, upon which TreoMail is based, and it wasn't nearly as polished as TreoMail. Conclusion? Handspring made a number of usability enhancements to Visto's product, in creating TreoMail. I hope that Handspring, and not the carrier (i.e., Sprint, in whom I have little faith in UI-related items) will make the same modifications to the future wireless mail products that are looming in the distance.
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