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  1. varipapa's Avatar
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       #1  
    Treo 600 Petition Online

    I created a petition which will be forwarded to Verizon Wireless to support the Treo 600. Check it out and sign it if you want to encourage Verizon to support this phone.

    Click to sign or look at Treo 600 petition!

    I would also suggest signing up on the Handspring Treo 600 site to express your interest in this phone (be sure to indicate if you are a Verizon customer).

    Here are some quotes about the Treo 600 from PC Magazine:

    "...Unlike with past PDA/phone combinations, especially those incorporating the Palm operating system, you can do just about everything without ever touching the screen or breaking out the stylus..."

    "...data, e-mail, and camera functions are strong, too. A single button let us both snap pictures with the basic 640-by-480 digital camera that is built in and transmit the shots via MMS..."

    "...wireless e-mail system will work like the Blackberry's, where messages are pushed to the device as they arrive at the mail server..."

    "...The device we looked at measured 4.4" by 2.26" by .87" deep, and weighed around six ounces. But despite our unit's 15-percent reduction in size from previous models, its tiny keyboard was quite effective..."

    "...the Treo 600 offers a tantalizing mix of PDA, phone, Web-browsing, and e-mail capabilities. We'll have a full review when the company makes the final hardware and software available..."
  2. #2  
    I doubt there will be true push on the Treo. It uses the same network technologies as existing Treos. Push Blackberries (as far as I know) use the pager networks. Completely different.
  3. #3  
    Unlike the Treo 300, the Treo 600 is not a Sprint exclusive and HS has specifically said that it will support both CDMA 1900 and CDMA 800 on the device so that it will be compatible with providers like Verizon. Even if Verizon elects not to carry the Treo 600, you could likely buy an unactivated one, take it to a Verizon store, and have them activate it on their network for you. Unlike Sprint, Verizon is perfectly willing to activate most CDMA phones that they do not directly support/sell themselves.
  4. #4  
    Originally posted by Marty1781
    Unlike the Treo 300, the Treo 600 is not a Sprint exclusive and HS has specifically said that it will support both CDMA 1900 and CDMA 800 on the device so that it will be compatible with providers like Verizon. Even if Verizon elects not to carry the Treo 600, you could likely buy an unactivated one, take it to a Verizon store, and have them activate it on their network for you. Unlike Sprint, Verizon is perfectly willing to activate most CDMA phones that they do not directly support/sell themselves.
    Does Verizon have the same ESN restrictions like Sprint? Also from what I've read, Verizon seems to be hesitant about releasing phones that are not dual mode (i.e. do not support analog raoming). If this is true, then it might be quite difficult to see verizon releasing the Treo600...
  5. varipapa's Avatar
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       #5  
    Most of the new Verizon phones (eg: LG VX6000) are dual digital (800-1900) only - no analog.
  6. #6  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    I doubt there will be true push on the Treo. It uses the same network technologies as existing Treos. Push Blackberries (as far as I know) use the pager networks. Completely different.
    Blackberrys use GPRS. The network technology on the device has nothing to do with whether it can receive "push" e-mail. The "push" mail capability comes from one of two technological implementations:

    1. An enterprise implementation--Corporate network runs a mail server which passes mail traffic through a corporate server (doesn't have to be a mail server) running RIM's software which forwards the mail to RIM's servers in Canada where it is then transmitted (wirelessly) to Blackberry devices (via GPRS). (Sending mail works the same way, only in reverse.)

    2. Internet implementation--A piece of software sits on a user's client PC and acts as an e-mail client forwarding the mail to RIM's servers in Canada where it is then transmitted to Blackberry devices (via GPRS). (This method requires the user's PC workstation to remain logged into the mail system.) (Sending mail works the same way, only in reverse.)

    It is these back-end technologies that make "push" e-mail possible. Anything short of either of these types of implementations will require a device to "pull" the e-mail either via POP or IMAP. In the case of a corporate mail system, the device would need to negotiate a firewall or other security barrier.

    Whether there is true "push" on the Treo will depend on if the necessary software is released and implemented by either the user (on his PC) or a user's employer (on their corporate network). It has nothing to do with the device, itself, per se. "Push" e-mail could have been done on a Treo 270 if the necessary software (on the back-end) had been developed and implemented (as in Visto's software which is being adopted by Handspring).

    The only difference between the Treo and a Blackberry is that RIM designed and marketed BOTH the back-end software AND the device to take advantage of it. It's a complete solution and was marketed as such. A Treo (or any other GPRS wireless PDA) could do the same thing, except that Palm/Handspring doesn't own (or market) the software that makes it possible.
    Last edited by Insp_Gadget; 07/10/2003 at 07:51 AM.
    --Inspector Gadget

    "Go Go Gadget Pre!!"
    Palm Pre on Sprint

    Palm V--> Palm IIIc--> Visor Prism--> Visor Phone--> Treo 270--> Treo 600--> Treo 650-->
    Treo 700wx--> HTC Touch Diamond--> Palm Pre & HTC EVO 4G.
  7. #7  
    Originally posted by Insp_Gadget


    Blackberrys use GPRS. The network technology on the device has nothing to do with whether it can receive "push" e-mail. The "push" mail capability comes from one of two technological implementations:
    Original Blackberrys do not use GPRS, and the network technology has everything to do with how the email is recieved as we will see in a second.
    Originally posted by Insp_Gadget

    Whether there is true "push" on the Treo will depend on if the necessary software is released and implemented by either the user (on his PC) or a user's employer (on their corporate network). It has nothing to do with the device, itself, per se. "Push" e-mail could have been done on a Treo 270 if the necessary software (on the back-end) had been developed and implemented (as in Visto's software which is being adopted by Handspring).
    No, true push requires a network connection that is always listening. A triggered pull, which is available now on the Treo and will be on the next Treo as well recieves a signal that it is to go get mail, and it does it. A true push system spits the mail out there for the device to listen to. The device doesn't have to initiate any connection.
    Originally posted by Insp_Gadget

    The only difference between the Treo and a Blackberry is that RIM designed and marketed BOTH the back-end software AND the device to take advantage of it. It's a complete solution and was marketed as such. A Treo (or any other GPRS wireless PDA) could do the same thing, except that Palm/Handspring doesn't own (or market) the software that makes it possible.
    That again is not true. What you are describing is a system such as the BC program from Sprint which is definitely not push. Things that are pushed to the Treo are SMS and voice mail notifications. You can be doing *anything* on the phone--calling, PDA, internet--and it gets through. With a triggered pull, until you hang up the phone you cannot get your message. That is the key difference here. So unless this new "push" network you are envisioning sends massive numbers of SMS messages which are assembled on the Treo, the Treo will have to stop what it is doing (if you are making a phone call, you have to hang up) and go get the mail. Having used a Blackberry (an original, not the GPRS ones which may indeed have two radios in them so you can be on the phone and use the internet at the same time, but unless this is the case they most likely don't qualify as true push either), a GPRS Treo and a Sprint Treo, I can testify to both the operational and usefulness difference between the two. While push does require an enterprise setup along with a device, the device has to be a special kind that is always listening to the network instead of being one forced to make a connection and tie up the radio to get anything accomplished.
  8. #8  
    Originally posted by gfunkmagic


    Does Verizon have the same ESN restrictions like Sprint? Also from what I've read, Verizon seems to be hesitant about releasing phones that are not dual mode (i.e. do not support analog raoming). If this is true, then it might be quite difficult to see verizon releasing the Treo600...
    No, like I said in my first post, Verizon is willing to activate most CDMA phones regardless if they sell them themselves or not (i.e. they do not have the same ESN restrictions like Sprint, they will willingly add a phone whose ESN is not already in their database to their database). So even if Verizon does not release the phone themselves, they would likely be willing to activate a previously unactivated Treo 600.

    Verizon released the Samsung I700 which despite being analog capable, Verizon decided to shut off that capability in the I700. So it seems like not only do they not mind a phone being digital only (CDMA 1900 and CDMA 800), they might actually prefer it for some reason.
  9. #9  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer

    Original Blackberrys do not use GPRS, and the network technology has everything to do with how the email is recieved as we will see in a second.

    No, true push requires a network connection that is always listening. A triggered pull, which is available now on the Treo and will be on the next Treo as well recieves a signal that it is to go get mail, and it does it. A true push system spits the mail out there for the device to listen to. The device doesn't have to initiate any connection.
    That again is not true. What you are describing is a system such as the BC program from Sprint which is definitely not push. Things that are pushed to the Treo are SMS and voice mail notifications. You can be doing *anything* on the phone--calling, PDA, internet--and it gets through. With a triggered pull, until you hang up the phone you cannot get your message. That is the key difference here. So unless this new "push" network you are envisioning sends massive numbers of SMS messages which are assembled on the Treo, the Treo will have to stop what it is doing (if you are making a phone call, you have to hang up) and go get the mail. Having used a Blackberry (an original, not the GPRS ones which may indeed have two radios in them so you can be on the phone and use the internet at the same time, but unless this is the case they most likely don't qualify as true push either), a GPRS Treo and a Sprint Treo, I can testify to both the operational and usefulness difference between the two. While push does require an enterprise setup along with a device, the device has to be a special kind that is always listening to the network instead of being one forced to make a connection and tie up the radio to get anything accomplished.
    Now I understand where you're coming from, but you're mixing apples and oranges. True, the original Blackberrys didn't use GPRS, but they weren't voice devices either. They had the luxury of staying connected to data services without having to worry about voice requirements. Right now no carrier that I'm aware of has implemented what you are talking about.

    You're describing the capability of being on a voice call and downloading data at the same time. None of the carriers currently do this. What you are describing requires a "Class A" GSM device (simultaneous voice and GPRS dataflow). There are no phones on the market that do this yet. Not even Blackberrys (They have only one radio). They are all Class B GSM devices.

    I was comparing current Blackberrys (with voice capability) to the Treo. That is a more apt comparison. They, too have the same limitations. With the 5810, for example, as soon as you activate phone capability, the data stops. They are just good at making it look seemless.

    I've deployed and used Blackberrys in an enterprise environment, so I know how they work. When it's all data, it's great. When it comes to convergence applications such as voice and data, they suffer from the same limitations you describe on the Treo.

    What I was describing is what could be done in terms of data connection with a GPRS-capable Treo. It can, indeed receive push e-mail if you let it stay connected via GPRS. I thought that was understood.
    --Inspector Gadget

    "Go Go Gadget Pre!!"
    Palm Pre on Sprint

    Palm V--> Palm IIIc--> Visor Prism--> Visor Phone--> Treo 270--> Treo 600--> Treo 650-->
    Treo 700wx--> HTC Touch Diamond--> Palm Pre & HTC EVO 4G.
  10. #10  
    Originally posted by Insp_Gadget

    What I was describing is what could be done in terms of data connection with a GPRS-capable Treo. It can, indeed receive push e-mail if you let it stay connected via GPRS. I thought that was understood.
    Can the Treo use the data service intelligently? I should know this (and I think the existence of chatter indicates that it can) But can it use little bits of data in the background, without turning on and without having to hold onto a data connection continuously (like AIM does, killing the battery)?
  11. #11  
    Although I understand the differences between what is called push and pull email, I can't help but wonder how much the difference really matters.

    Email is NOT an instant delivery medium. Various things can and do delay email messages over the internet. So anyone who wants instantanious notification should NOT be using email in the first place. To put such a high value on the instant delivery of the last hop in the path that email takes through the internet seems silly and of dubious value.

    I maintain that frequent pull and SMS-triggered pull can result in the same outcome in practice.

    The real issue we should be discussing, IMO, is Treo's ability to be receiving email in the background (push or pull), without switching to the email application and having the user watch the email application doing the work. There is a lot of value in that because one's continuous use of another application can delay the retreival of email just like being on the phone!

    Palm OS is not multi-tasking at the general API level, however it is built on a core that is multitasking. It is possible that the Palm- or Handspring-blessed integration with Good Technologies (or other) "push" email solution would utilize low-level multitasking for the purposes of delivering the email to the device. Incidentally, I remember that the feature list of the most recent version of TreoMail stated that it grabs your email in the background. Here is an excerpt:
    New in version 1.5:
    Now Treo Mail 1.5 automatically sends and receives your email in the background—all day long—so all your latest messages are there when you need them. You can even opt to get notified every time you get new mail.
    Anyone knows if this really happens in the background? That is, while the screen is off or while the user is using another application?
    Last edited by silverado; 07/10/2003 at 03:06 PM.
  12. #12  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    Can the Treo use the data service intelligently? I should know this (and I think the existence of chatter indicates that it can) But can it use little bits of data in the background, without turning on and without having to hold onto a data connection continuously (like AIM does, killing the battery)?
    Now that's the trick, isn't it? That's were the software makes a difference. AIM constantly transmits and receives while it runs. In an e-mail push situation, a Treo would only need to maintain a GPRS connection (not constantly transmit).

    Blackberrys stay on constantly (like a pager does). They maintain a GPRS connection (until voice requirements come in). The newer (color) ones turn the back light off to save battery power. With the right software a Treo could do the same thing.

    I'm not saying it's perfect. I'm merely pointing out that it's reasonably capable of the same feats. It's all in how the OS and software interact.

    By the way, Visto's website is waaayyy out of date. All their descriptions and testimony describe using voice minutes for your data connection. Obviously, a GPRS-enabled device wouldn't need to do this.

    We'll see how the Treo 600 handles it.
    --Inspector Gadget

    "Go Go Gadget Pre!!"
    Palm Pre on Sprint

    Palm V--> Palm IIIc--> Visor Prism--> Visor Phone--> Treo 270--> Treo 600--> Treo 650-->
    Treo 700wx--> HTC Touch Diamond--> Palm Pre & HTC EVO 4G.
  13. #13  
    Originally posted by silverado

    Email is NOT an instant delivery medium.
    You couldn't be more wrong. When I send an email at work, it gets to the other person in seconds. It gets to the Blackberry in a few more. You tell them they should pick up the phone and call me instead of punching a response into their Blackberry and see what they say (and see what I say when I'm interrupted). The fact of the matter is email is indeed an instantaneous medium, and delays resulting from rinky-dink mail servers and crummy backbones do not detract from the fact that billions of emails are sent with no discernable delay whatsoever.

    The logical conclusion is that there is no reason to have a device manually check email every half hour when you can do it constantly.
  14. #14  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    You couldn't be more wrong.
    I suggest that you tone down your statements when you don't konw all the facts. You couldn't be more wrong. Read the definition of email protocols. There are no guarantees on delivery times or QoS. The fact that email gets delivered very often instantiously does not make email an instant delivery medium. Making such a sharp distinction and putting the two methods in different leagues is buying into marketing hype. "Mission critical email" is an oxymoron.

    Flacky connections are part and parcel of the internet. Expecting email to be foolproof is asking for trouble.

    Ever gotten a message back from an email server telling you that it has been trying to deliver your mail for a few hours? It ususally goes further to say that shouldn't be concerned and resend the message; it's going to keep trying for a few days. That is not a response of a system that thinks it is supposed to deliver instantiously. This response is in line with email protocol guidelines.

    The logical conclusion is that there is no reason to have a device manually check email every half hour when you can do it constantly.
    Of course, why would you check continuously if it can be delivered directly? Who was asking for that?

    Do you know that a large majority of email users use POP email clients to check their email periodically on their desktop computers? Many others use web mail. So for all these users instantious delivery means very little. Most of the time people set the period to about 5 minutes. The overall message of my post, if you have read it, says that background checking and retrieval/receiving is what is really of high value. If the Treo could do this without turining the screen on or switching apps, setting the period to 5 minutes would achieve the exact same outcome that millions of business desktop users have today. Adding the possible sluggishness and variability in email delivery times, the maximum of 5 minutes between time email is sent until it is checked becomes very neglegible, again, making placing such high value on push vs pull not make much sense.
    Last edited by silverado; 07/10/2003 at 04:09 PM.
  15. #15  
    Originally posted by silverado

    I suggest that you tone down your statements when you don't konw all the facts. You couldn't be more wrong.
    Heheh, I was going to apologize (honestly) until you did the same thing. Now it's just funny.
    Originally posted by silverado
    Read the definition of email protocols.
    So you're saying we should have our actions defined by the tools we invent to ease our lives? I think we should do the opposite. Indeed that is what most corporations do. We need instant email, so that's what we get. If you insist on having delayed email, it's all yours.
    Originally posted by silverado
    Do you know that a large majority of email users use POP email clients to check their email periodically on their desktop computers? Many others use web mail. So for all these users instantious delivery means very little. Most of the time people set the period to about 5 minutes.
    Being this is a Treo 600 forum and the Treo 600 is aimed directly at enterprise users, I'd say you're arguing from the wrong base.
    Originally posted by silverado
    making placing such high value on push vs pull not make much sense.
    Unless of course there is another product out there that does the job better (instant) and is already entrenched. And if you are asking people to move backward (back to delayed delivery) you're going to have a tough time winning customers. Oh wait, such a product exists.

    www.blackberry.com

    I'm not saying the Treo is a bad device. I own and love mine. I'm just saying that for the bulk of corporate america it is simply in inferior product. Blackberries are here, and they will be here in greater numbers through many Treo iterations.
  16. #16  
    The bottom of this message shows what Blackberry's website says about their email push technology. Note that no where does it tout the speed with which your email reaches you (that's probably because they are not as fast as they used to be with the older pager-based models). They talk about hassle and inconvenience of connecting to get your mail.

    I still maintain that if any device where to pull email every 5 minutes or so in the background it will result in no discernable practrical difference to the user. That would eliminate every drawback blackberry.com says their product alleviates.

    It's strange that we are having this discussion in a thread about a petition to Verizon I bet many people would like to chime in but they wouldn't even open this thread.

    from http://www.blackberry.com/products/s...sh_email.shtml

    BlackBerry eliminates the hassles of dial-up by moving mobile email to a "push" architecture. In the traditional "pull" model, the user periodically connects to the email server to check for new messages.

    BlackBerry's "push" technology enables messages to be automatically and effortlessly routed to your handheld while you're on the go.

    BlackBerry handhelds include industry leading wireless technology and superior battery life allowing them to remain on and continuously connected to the wireless network. With BlackBerry's push technology, you can be discreetly notified as you receive a message. When email arrives in your inbox, a copy is immediately "pushed" to your 'Always On, Always Connected®' handheld.

    With BlackBerry, you don't need to retrieve your email. Your email finds you. No dialing-in. No initiating connections. No phone or modem to attach. No effort required!
    Last edited by silverado; 07/10/2003 at 05:35 PM.
  17. #17  
    If you poll for email then every single phone call you make to poll will cost you, typically, 1 minute of calling time. If you poll every 5 minutes that means you are using 288 minutes a day just to check for email - that's 8640 minutes a month.

    I think that's a little more than most calling plans.

    (data transfer might be unlimited for a fixed fee, but calling time is not except fo the most expensive plans)
  18. #18  
    Originally posted by silverado
    I still maintain that if any device where to pull email every 5 minutes or so in the background it will result in no discernable practrical difference to the user. That would eliminate every drawback blackberry.com says their product alleviates.
    That's probably a fair bet. Hopefully the 600 is lightyears ahead of the 300 when it comes to power management and network access.
  19. #19  
    Originally posted by SeldomVisitor
    If you poll for email then every single phone call you make to poll will cost you, typically, 1 minute of calling time. If you poll every 5 minutes that means you are using 288 minutes a day just to check for email - that's 8640 minutes a month.

    I think that's a little more than most calling plans.

    (data transfer might be unlimited for a fixed fee, but calling time is not except fo the most expensive plans)
    I was assuming an unlimited data plan (like Sprint's Vision and T-Mobile's GPRS). In those cases minutes are not counted and make no difference. True, if someone was dialing up using CSD, that is very impractical.
  20. #20  
    Originally posted by Insp_Gadget
    (Re: BlackBerry) They are just good at making it look seamless.
    Bingo! Amazingly, no other company cares to make the effort.

    The BlackBerry team recognized that users don't care about connection attempts, coverage loss, error dialogs etc. What they need is a device which gets data when it can, and sends data when it can, and shuts up in between.

    The BlackBerry does all of the network stuff quietly in the background. Pass or fail, it doesn't bother the user with things which can't be controlled. Really, what's the point of Palm's "0x1102 network busy"? Is the user supposed to enjoy seeing that stupid dialog and clicking OK, instead of having smartly designed software quietly work around the issue. The BlackBerry on the other hand, is designed to handle failure conditions. The whole thing is based on, what-if this fails etc.

    Let's say I reply to an email while I'm out of coverage on a BlackBerry. It's designed to locally queue outgoing messages when there is a coverage problem, and quietly indicate their transmission status via a small icon next to each message. Sadly, if you run a SkyTel BlackBerry you are screwed in this regard as the network will stop trying after a few times. What were they thinking! It's odd un-BlackBerry-like behavior was noticeable immediately.

    The Palm network stack needs to chill out! It shouldn't be showing Service Connection Progress dialogs, or coverage loss dialogs, or busy network dialogs, or anything else from the network stack. As long as those goofy network artifacts on the Palm remain, it is going to have a problem when it comes to push-anything. As it is, there's only so much you can throw at it simply because it is such high maintenance with all of the stupid dialogs it pops up. It needs to rely more on the returned error codes, and less on the useless hard-coded error dialogs.

    The ridiculous thing is that none of that Palm stuff even needs to exist. The network stack is run from a completely different thread, and if they'd simply remove the error dialog everything would be cool! It's mind-blowing that it still has that crap in there for wireless service.
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