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  1.    #1  
    Ref previous discussion on http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...threadid=34792 but I thought I'd start a new thread for clarity.

    Just received the 6800 and first impressions in terms of holding the thing was WOW. When folded it is about the size of a medium-sized Nokia phone -- see attached pic for comparisons with the Treo.

    Open the thing up and the thumboard works very well indeed. At the moment the fact that it's split in the by the screen is a bit of a headf**k but I'm sure I'll get used to it. Good tactile feedback though, although Nokia's keyboards (9110, 9210) have always been good.

    One minor criticism -- the backspace key is awful. Smaller than every other key on the keyboard and has poor feedback.

    In terms of software, I've only just unpacked the thing. But unfortunately, the software is LITERALLY the Nokia series 40 software. They've made no changes to it to take into account you now have a full-size keyboard attached. So, to add something to the calendar, you have to go into the menu, select organiser, select calendar -- it's a lot more long winded than the Treo. Similarly, to add an appointment, it's about four options down. Fine on a mobile phone, with its limited number of keys, but they haven't made the best of the keyboard.

    For what I do, it probably WILL replace the Treo. It's plenty good enough for my web page updates, it's good enough for my PDA needs -- and in fairness to the device I freely admit I may just not have found the quickest way to do things yet -- but most importantly I can carry it around and use it like a phone without sticking out like sore thumb.

    However, my quest for the perfect device still continues. To give the 6800 credit, it's getting there -- if Nokia did a Symbian series 60 phone with the same design as the 6800, I'd be first in line.

    I'll post some more thoughts when I've played more.
  2. #2  
    Good Luck. I hope the Nokia works out for you.

    I'm going to wait for the Treo 600.
    --Inspector Gadget

    "Go Go Gadget Pre!!"
    Palm Pre on Sprint

    Palm V--> Palm IIIc--> Visor Prism--> Visor Phone--> Treo 270--> Treo 600--> Treo 650-->
    Treo 700wx--> HTC Touch Diamond--> Palm Pre & HTC EVO 4G.
  3. #3  
    Originally posted by Loccy
    When folded it is about the size of a medium-sized Nokia phone -- see attached pic for comparisons with the Treo.
    Where is the pic?
  4. #4  
    Did you install the Java browser? How well is it serving your original requirement of updating web pages remotely?
  5. #5  
    Like you, I'm very impressed with the keyboard. They've done a nice job with that.
    For me, the screen is just too small, though. And, according to the Wall Street Journal's Walt Mossberg, you can't get at your Microsoft Outlook email with it yet. Nokia has licensed Rim's software for this phone, but it isn't yet available I don't think.
    Here's Mossberg's full May 8 review.
    Nokia 6800 Has Nice Keyboard,
    But the Software Is Very Weak

    One of the great dilemmas in the design of today's wireless phones is how to improve the entering of text, especially for longer items like e-mail messages and notes.

    The phone keypad is only good enough for tapping out short text messages, laden with abbreviations and limited to 160 characters. Handwriting recognition and on-screen virtual keyboards are prone to error and tedious to use.

    The best solution is to incorporate a small thumb-operated keyboard into the device. But fitting in such a keyboard requires the phone to be larger than many people find stylish or comfortable. The Handspring Treo, which I've praised as the best combination phone and e-mail device on the market, works for me. But some people shun it because it looks more like a PDA than a phone.

    The Nokia 6800

    Now, Nokia has come up with an ingenious new phone that incorporates a very usable keyboard, yet retains the look, feel and dimensions of a standard wireless phone. It's the Nokia 6800. It was introduced this week in the U.S. by Cingular Wireless for $250 when you sign a two-year service contract.

    When you first glance at the Nokia 6800, it looks unremarkable. It seems like a very typical phone, with an average-size color screen, a few buttons below the screen and a normal phone-dialing keypad below that.

    But if you swing the keypad up over the screen, you discover a roomy text keyboard. This keyboard flanks the screen, with one half on either side of it. It's meant to be used with the phone in a horizontal position, so the screen automatically switches to a horizontal view from a vertical view whenever the keyboard is opened.

    The design is clever. Nokia built half the keyboard onto the underside of the flip-up keypad and the other half onto the part of the phone's body that lies hidden under the keypad. This keyboard is roomier than those on the Treo or on the BlackBerry from Research in Motion, but it stays out of sight when not needed, which permits the 6800 to retain a phone's shape and size.

    In fact, at 4.67 inches long, 2.15 inches wide, 0.91 inches thick and 4.3 ounces in weight, the Nokia 6800 is lighter and narrower than the Treo, albeit a tad thicker and longer.

    The keyboard seems awkward at first, especially because it's divided by the screen. But in my tests over the past few days, I quickly got used to it. Holding one side in each palm and using my thumbs to type, I was able to work as speedily and accurately as I do on a Treo or BlackBerry. It's not for touch typists, but none of these little keyboards is.

    You can still make and take phone calls while the 6800 is in the horizontal position with the keyboard open. The phone automatically switches into speaker-phone mode, because it's hard to hold it up to your ear with the keyboard open. You can opt for a headset instead of the speaker phone.

    And in a really smart touch, you can read and scroll through things on the screen while you're talking. You can even take notes while on a phone call, though each key press sends an audible beep, which is annoying unless you turn all the keypad sounds off.

    When you're finished using the keyboard, just fold it back up and you have a regular phone, with all the features of today's better phones, including short-text messaging. There's a bonus, too: a built-in FM radio that sounds amazingly good.

    So, Nokia deserves great credit from mobile e-mail users for this keyboard design. Nothing else in a traditional phone comes close. But there's a big catch: While the hardware is very cool, the software is very weak.

    The built-in e-mail program can handle standard Internet e-mail accounts, but not nonstandard ones such as AOL, most corporate e-mail, or Web-based e-mail like Hotmail. In my tests, it sent and received e-mail well. But it takes five steps to launch and opens slowly. And once you get it open, you have to scroll through lots of menus and commands to do simple things, like sending an e-mail you've written.

    Also, the small screen can't show many e-mail headers at once, and the e-mail program doesn't access the phone's contact list when you address an e-mail so you have to type it in manually. In fact, it takes extra steps to even enter an e-mail address in the contact list. The software was clearly built with e-mail as an afterthought, despite all the effort it took to include a keyboard in the unit.

    Another problem: Unlike on the Treo and the BlackBerry, the keyboard functionality is dumb. It knows enough to capitalize the next letter after a period. But it doesn't automatically add the apostrophe if you type in words like "cant" or "didnt," as the others do.

    Nokia has announced what may be a fix for all this. Later this year, it plans to equip the 6800 with RIM BlackBerry e-mail capabilities and new software to operate it. If that software comes anywhere close to what's on a real BlackBerry, the 6800 could become a very nice e-mail machine -- the only one that really looks and works like a phone.

    Write to Walter S. Mossberg at mossberg@wsj.com

    Updated May 8, 2003
     
  6.    #6  
    Where is the pic?
    D'oh. Forgot about that. Should be with this reply.

    Did you install the Java browser? How well is it serving your original requirement of updating web pages remotely?
    Well it works, put it that way. My scripts are fairly simple -- a few form fields and a text area. The Java browser seems to handle it fine. Wider afield, the Java browser renders pages a lot like Blazer, but has the same limitations, eg. no Hotmail or most webmails, for that matter.

    Mossberg is spot on in that review. Design-wise, it's the best device I've ever seen. But I admit the software is weak.

    The critique of the device's email capabilities is a little harsh, as you can just install someone else's client. Reqwireless's email client is quite nice.

    I didn't know that Blackberry was in the pipeline -- never used it, but it would add a HUGE new dimension to the 6800 in terms of software.

    Overall -- yep, I'm pleased. For what I do, it will replace the Treo and is a much better fit for me.
    Attached Images Attached Images
  7. #7  
    hmm - an interesting review by our man Walt. I think this device will lure people in by its small form factor and promise of quick text entry (and also maybe the coolness aspect), but I'd betcha that after a while, all the usability items that Walt mentioned will render it useless. I'm sure there are folks who are willing to put up with seems to be a clunky UI, but anyone who has used either a RIM or Treo, and really depends on a clean and smooth user interface, will likely regret going down this path. There are folks for whom this will work - I just don't think it's the treo user, for the most part.
    And that begs another question - is the market divided enough to support a device like this - for a user who doesn't need/want to have a more-complete thumbboard a la RIM/Treo, but who still needs faster text entry? Who would buy this? A teen who does a lot of IMing? I'd think they'd go for the N-gage thing, or a Danger.
    Guess the market will decide. The all-powerful market....
  8. #8  
    That is a very sharp looking phone indeed. I think it's too much of a phone for my needs, though. The screen is too small and getting at the keyboard is too much of a hassle.

    Can you get at the normal text functions like calendar, notepad, tasks, web browsing, IM, etc. without opening the phone and instead using T9 input?
  9. #9  
    I'm glad it's working for you. It's a nice form factor. It's interesting that you have regressed from the 9210 all the way to this! The 9210 must have been a huge overkill for you.

    I personally do alot more with my Treo and can't wait for the 600 so that I would get the much nicer form factor which should get rid of the having an "uncool phone" problem.
  10.    #10  
    That is a very sharp looking phone indeed. I think it's too much of a phone for my needs, though. The screen is too small and getting at the keyboard is too much of a hassle.
    Getting at the keyboard is no different than opening the Treo flip.

    It IS more a phone than a PDA, though, at least at the moment with the standard Nokia series 40 software. Bring on Blackberry.

    Can you get at the normal text functions like calendar, notepad, tasks, web browsing, IM, etc. without opening the phone and instead using T9 input?
    Yep. Everything works from the usual Nokia menus.

    It's interesting that you have regressed from the 9210 all the way to this! The 9210 must have been a huge overkill for you.
    Bear in mind I came to the 9210 via Psion and also the earlier 9110. At the time, the 9110 was the only device on the market that gave me the functionality I needed. Before then, I carted around a Toshiba Libretto and hooked it up to the phone via a cable!

    The 9110 was clearly an improvement but still a brick to cart around. Later, the 9210 upgraded the features of the 9110 without making it more practical to carry. Many of these features I never used, although I do miss having a decent Citrix client and the screen space to use it, but then I didn't have that on the Treo either. (And being able to play Doom was fun, too!)

    But in terms of my needs, what I need is something:

    a) as small as possible
    b) that can render and take input into HTML forms
    c) that has PDA functions

    And that's it.

    The Nokia fits the bill while being smaller than its predecessor, as the Treo did before it.
  11. #11  
    Originally posted by Loccy

    Getting at the keyboard is no different than opening the Treo flip.
    Not really. Two reasons: first, the Treo 600 has no lid (this is the Treo 600 forum). Second, I can open and use the keyboard with one hand. While the former may be possible, the latter definitely is not on this phone.

    Originally posted by Loccy
    Yep. Everything works from the usual Nokia menus.
    That's cool. So walking down the street with a pie in one hand you can enter a todo with the other, one-handed?
  12. #12  
    Note the very similar sizes:

    Treo 600: 4.4" X 2.3" X 0.9"

    Nokia 6800: 4.7" X 2.2" X 0.9"

    The Nokia is taller and only just narrower.
  13. #13  
    Originally posted by Stickman
    Note the very similar sizes:

    Treo 600: 4.4" X 2.3" X 0.9"

    Nokia 6800: 4.7" X 2.2" X 0.9"

    The Nokia is taller and only just narrower.
    Maybe this is technically correct, but look at the picture and you'll see that the Nokia has a much smaller form factor. At the widest point, it may be 2.2 inches wide, but for most of the length it is nowhere near this width. I'd say "note the very similar dimensions" but the sizes are not even close.
  14. #14  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    Maybe this is technically correct, but look at the picture and you'll see that the Nokia has a much smaller form factor. At the widest point, it may be 2.2 inches wide, but for most of the length it is nowhere near this width. I'd say "note the very similar dimensions" but the sizes are not even close.
    By the same token, the Treo has a rounded back and no where near 0.9" at the edges and only 0.9" at the center of the back side. So what you call "size" might be close after all. A volume measurement would be one additional way to compare them. Nokia gives that for all their phones, but HS doesn't.

    It's hard to compare how big they feel without really using them.
  15. #15  
    Originally posted by freudov23
    From a scientific approach, all you need to do in order to calculate the volume of your Treo is measure the displacement after dropping it in a beaker filled with water
    That's right, but after closing all its holes Otherwise you won't be measuring the outer volume but something smaller--closer to the volume of the components Of course we all know that the volume of the Treo is greater than the sum of the volume of its parts.
  16. #16  
    Originally posted by silverado

    By the same token, the Treo has a rounded back and no where near 0.9" at the edges and only 0.9" at the center of the back side. So what you call "size" might be close after all. A volume measurement would be one additional way to compare them. Nokia gives that for all their phones, but HS doesn't.

    It's hard to compare how big they feel without really using them.
    You're telling me that you think they feel as if they are of similar size? Besides, your statement about being "no where near 0.9"" at the edges glosses over the fact that for most of the area of the phone, it is most if not all of .9 inches thick. This qualification is much more relevant when referring to the width of the Nokia than the depth of the Treo.
  17. #17  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    Maybe this is technically correct, but look at the picture and you'll see that the Nokia has a much smaller form factor. At the widest point, it may be 2.2 inches wide, but for most of the length it is nowhere near this width. I'd say "note the very similar dimensions" but the sizes are not even close.
    From reading the post, Stickman is comparing the Treo 600 to the Nokia 6800. The picture is comparing the much larger current generation Treos to the Nokia 6800.
  18. #18  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    You're telling me that you think they feel as if they are of similar size?
    I don't know who you mean by "they", but what I'm saying is that the point you are making is made less vivid given the fact that the Treo has tapered dimensions too. I referred so size in quotes because I don't know what you mean by "size" versus dimentions. I said that it is hard to compare which feels smaller when in hand and in pocket (the true useful characteristic) until one actually uses them.

    Besides, your statement about being "no where near 0.9"" at the edges glosses over the fact that for most of the area of the phone, it is most if not all of .9 inches thick.
    These two images (1, 2) show that, for the whole length of the phone, the tapered sides reduce the volume of the phone.

    This qualification is much more relevant when referring to the width of the Nokia than the depth of the Treo.
    Why? Without making precise measurements, I can't see making such a strong statement.
    Last edited by silverado; 07/09/2003 at 04:21 PM.
  19. #19  
    Okay, misunderstanding here. First, the title of this thread is Treo 270 v Nokia 6800, second, the picture attached to this thread is not of a Treo 600. I was referring to the Treo as it stands today. You are referring to the way the Treo will be. I see now the dimensions listed are for the Treo 600. My bad. I think we both understand the other side now.
  20. #20  
    The one thing I could not get over was how small the Treo 600 actually was. In most photos, it looks like it might be kind of big, but when you are holding it in your hand it is amazing how small it looks and feels.

    I think because of the curvature on the back it feels smaller.

    I specifically held the Treo in my hand and held it up to my head like I would if I was having a conversation, and then I looked at myself in a reflection in a glass window. The Treo 600 was almost completely concealed and it looked just like a regular phone. It felt strange because I am so used to my 270 which when it is open looks huge.

    Surprisingly the one thing that was sooo brilliant about the form factor is that when I was checking my self out in the window reflection....by the way I am too sexy for your cat....the only part of the phone that was not concealed was the camera lens.

    You could so easily pretend to be talking on the phone while you are snapping away...Brilliant, because on the Sony Erickson phone and the Nokia the camera is in the middle of the phone so your hand would cover it...Not good for us 007 types.

    Actually check out this picture which shows just how small the Treo 600 really is:
    http://mobile.burn.com/review.jsp?Page=5&Id=366

    Jake
    Last edited by JakeE; 07/09/2003 at 10:43 PM.
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich

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