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  1.    #1  
    Have had a Treo for over a year now having upgraded from a Nokia 9210. The thing that attracted me to the Treo was purely the form-factor. Calendering aspects of a PDA aside, I needed to be able to update webpages via some HTML forms while on the road, and while the 9210 was a vastly more powerful bit of kit, the Treo did the job neatly and simply, and fits in my pocket without me looking overly pleased to see people.

    Having seen the pics of the 600, I can't see myself upgrading.

    The screen resolution is a big turn off. I desperately miss the screen of the 9210. I know I don't NEED such a good screen, but I still miss it.

    PalmOS -- and I know I'm going to get flamed for this -- is a toy OS compared to Symbian. Hardly any file handling, and even third party applications such as text editors fail to compare with the stuff that's built into the Nokia. Now I know the move to PalmOS 5 will help, but on such a low-res screen a lot of applications will struggle.

    So, I'm going the other way. It's a Nokia 6800 for me (http://mobile.burn.com/review.jsp?Id=336)

    Yes, it's J2ME based. It ain't Symbian. Still, as OSes go it's probably on a par with Palm 3.X.

    Yes, it doesn't have a web browser built in. That's easily taken care of courtesy of http://www.reqwireless.com/webviewer.html. It's no worse than Blazer and is certainly good enough for what I do.

    So why the switch? Surely the 6800 is as much a compromise from my old 9210 as the Treo is. However, just as the Treo enticed me because of form factor, so does the Nokia. It's shaped like a phone. I can put it to my ear and talk without looking like a prat. It's a far superior phone. And yes, as a PDA and mobile computing device, it's nowhere near as good as my beloved 9210, but it'll do the job as well as the Treo currently does.

    Am I the only one who's a little disappointed that the new Treo is just a variation on a theme? Yes, they've streamlined it a little. But that's about it. In contrast, the 6800 is a truly innovative design.

    (meanwhile, the price for the 6800 is right -- £20!)
  2. njchris's Avatar
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    #2  
    Originally posted by Loccy
    Am I the only one who's a little disappointed that the new Treo is just a variation on a theme? Yes, they've streamlined it a little. But that's about it. In contrast, the 6800 is a truly innovative design.
    I don't agree with that statement. Adding OS5, an SDIO slot and camera are doing a bit more than streamlining.
  3. #3  
    Loccy,

    But have you actually used the 6800 KB? It looks to me that you'd have to set it on a table to get any speed out of it. Innovative design is not always better.

    As for resolution, I think the size of the 600 screen is so small that it will seem higher res than the current Treos. Of the people who've played with the 600, I don't think I've heard one complaint about screen res.

    No flames on Symbian here. It's truly the best mobile OS and was designed as a mobile OS. I was a Psion user for 7 years and was amazed by what it could do. Unfortunately Psion abandoned their Symbian communicator (then got out of consumer hardware entirely) and the major phone companies that control Symbian aren't using it to it's potential. (Most of them aren't using it at all.) I get the feeling it's there more as a bargaining chip to get better deals from Palm and MS. It's a sleeping giant. Sorry to see it still snoozing.

    Kevin
  4. #4  
    I started shifting to smartphone with Nokia 9210. I love the multitasking, the beautiful and colorful interface, the IMAP integration, the browser/WAP, and the Office. If it only were made smaller, like the Treo
  5. #5  
    is that hte OS the hiptop sidekick uses?

    if so you are completely out of your mind

    the sidekicks complete garbage
  6. #6  
    Nope.

    The Symbian OS has been used in surprisingly few phones to date. Nokia introduced it into the phone market first with their communicator which got the unfriendly name "The Clark Bar". It was almost the size of a cordless phone and broke open to reveal a nice KB and bright screen, which wasn;t even a touch screen. It was a monumental flop.

    The Symbian OS has run on ARM chips since '96 I think. It's much more like a PC or mac in file structure. My Psion 5mx could run 31 apps at once. It was also capable launching most major non-native files through a third party app called nConvert. It was incredibly stable, even when running the thousands of third party apps available. (Psion invented the pocket organizer and apps written in the 80's could still run on Symbian.) It also had a built-in program compiler, so apps could be written directly on the Psion.

    Kevin
  7. #7  
    I could see going for the 6800, but the 9210? I wanted one for months after seeing pics on the web, but seeing a real one at CompUSA, all I could think was, man, is that thing huge! Sure, it looks great when it's sitting on a desk and you're actually using it as a laptop, but as a phone it's just massive. Symbian rocks as an OS (actually, I used EPOC on a Series 5), but some designer need to come up with a less embarrassing form factor. The 9210's remind me of what a friend once said about a neo-progressive rock band he used to manage: "They're too good for their own good."
  8. #8  
    Yes, too bad Symbian is in such small use today.

    However, let's not forget that the simple Palm OS resurrected or salvaged the handheld market with its simplicity.

    The greatest thing we could hope for is to have generic PDA hardware on which many ported OS's could run, as is the case with PC's. Wouldn't that be nice?

    One could buy, say, the Treo 600 because he or she likes the form factor. Then one could choose to install Symbian on it instead of Palm OS because he or she needs a more powerful OS. Ideally, the choice of hardware and software should be independent.
    Last edited by silverado; 07/08/2003 at 10:07 AM.
  9.    #9  
    But have you actually used the 6800 KB? It looks to me that you'd have to set it on a table to get any speed out of it. Innovative design is not always better.
    True. And no, I haven't used the 6800 keyboard. Mobile Burn gave it a good review, however, saying that it was very much a thumbboard rather than a keyboard. Indeed, their main criticism was that you couldn't lie it flat on a table and use it because of the curvature of the phone with the keyboard deployed! It sounds right up the alley of someone who's been thumb-typing since the early Psion days.

    One could say buy the Treo 600 because he or she likes the form factor. Then one could choose to install Symbian on it instead of Palm OS because he or she needs a more powerful OS. Ideally the choice of hardware and software should be independent.
    If only, mate, if only. I'd love to be able to buy an end-user build of Symbian and install it on a Treo. Or a Tungsten, for that matter.

    I could see going for the 6800, but the 9210? I wanted one for months after seeing pics on the web, but seeing a real one at CompUSA, all I could think was, man, is that thing huge! Sure, it looks great when it's sitting on a desk and you're actually using it as a laptop, but as a phone it's just massive.
    I had a 9110 (the monochrome predecessor) for over a year, and a 9210 for just as long, so got used to carting the brick around, but you're right, it is impractical.

    In fairness, the thing that's swung me is the price of the 6800. For 20 quid I can't really go wrong -- if it's crap I'll get the Treo back out again.

    Anyway I'll post a review on here when I get it.
  10. #10  
    Biggest problem with the keyboard layout on the 6800? You cannot use it with one hand. That is (perhaps) the best feature of a full qwerty keyboard: you can use it with one hand while holding something in the other. You cannot do that on the Nokia.
  11.    #11  
    If you're desperate to knock something out quickly one-handed (oooer, matron) then nothing says you have to open up the keyboard -- use the standard mobile phone tippy-tappy method. Not optimum but one-handed operation is still possible.

    As the software is the usual Nokia series 40 I assume that whatever predictive text algorithm they use on standard keypad phones still operates if you don't open the keyboard.

    Anyway, I get the thing tomorrow so I'll let you all know how it goes.
  12. #12  
    Ah, that makes sense. Is the T9 input incorporated into the PDA functions?
  13. veroi's Avatar
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    #13  
    I would recommend for everyone posting in this topic to try out when you can the SPV or SPVx smarthphones. These even tough based on MS OS are really awesome devices. You have the keypad of a typical phone, goo form factor, but you can also stream videos , audio, MP3, excellent browsing , super SMS,etc and the good thing is that you can buy one for $400 NOW, you do not need to wait until November for any of the new phones.
  14. #14  
    Originally posted by Loccy

    Having seen the pics of the 600, I can't see myself upgrading.

    The screen resolution is a big turn off. I desperately miss the screen of the 9210. I know I don't NEED such a good screen, but I still miss it.
    Loccy,

    I tend to agree with your general assestment. The screen obviously is the #1 negative factor on the Treo600. But I would encourage you to wait and see it before you make any final judgements. I'm personally hoping that it will more than compensate any misgivings once I see it...


    PalmOS -- and I know I'm going to get flamed for this -- is a toy OS compared to Symbian. Hardly any file handling, and even third party applications such as text editors fail to compare with the stuff that's built into the Nokia. Now I know the move to PalmOS 5 will help, but on such a low-res screen a lot of applications will struggle.
    Symbian certainly is a fine platform. It has the luxury of being designed and optimized from the start for mobiles, and thus is more efficient in many ways. But I have to disagree with your overall assestment of PalmOS. First of all, I hope your not basing your judgement on PalmOS merely from your experiences on the Treo which only runs ver. 3.5. Alot has been done with the platform since this and 5.x and shortly 6. Also to be technically correct, PalmOS does have a file system...if you have an expansion card via VFS. Also, have you tried various 3rd party text edditors like: Dataviz Doc-to-go, Quickoffice Premier, Agendus office, or Mobile Word 2003? Many of these have been rated to outperform similar PPC iterations...


    So, I'm going the other way. It's a Nokia 6800 for me...
    Well, like you said, the 6800 is only a Series 40 mobile and thus not a Symbian (Series 60) smartphone. Also, I'm a little confused why after being concerned over the Treo screen you would be satisfied with the 6800 which only has a 12 bit 128x128 pixels screen (worse than the treo)? The thumbboard is nice and innovative, but b/c of its flip design will be totally ineffective for one-hand navigation/data entry which will be the strong suit of the Treo600.


    However, just as the Treo enticed me because of form factor, so does the Nokia. It's shaped like a phone. I can put it to my ear and talk without looking like a prat. It's a far superior phone.
    Actually if you look at the dimensions of the two phones, they are quite similar:

    Treo 600: 4.41" x 2.26" x 0.87"
    Nokia 6800: 4.69" x 2.17" x 0.91"

    The Treo 600 actually occupies an overall smaller total volume than the 6800. I'm not sure you can say the 6800 is superior to the Treo600 simply in terms of form factor.


    Am I the only one who's a little disappointed that the new Treo is just a variation on a theme? Yes, they've streamlined it a little. But that's about it. In contrast, the 6800 is a truly innovative design.

    (meanwhile, the price for the 6800 is right -- £20!)
    I agree the flip QERWTY thumboard is an intriguing design. It's one of the few mobiles (like the 9210 etc) that have succesfully integrated both a full numeric keypad and separate thumboard. But beyond that IMO, I am not very impressed with the rest of the features on this phone. It has a worse screen than the treo, smaller battery (albeit removable I think), no integrated camera, no expansion, only 5 MB ram, dual band, and runs old Series 40 with limited software selection. Yes it has a FM tuner and Java support (which means alot more apps), but it still has much harder to find good 3rd party solutions when compared to PalmOS. Meanwhile, terming the Treo600 as just "a little streamlined" doesn't seem to accurate to me. New proc, new OS 5.x, 32 MB ram, camera, SDIO, quad band, new thumbboard design, d-pad, and more compact form factor are hardly minor IMO. Anyway, I respect your choice choice if certian, but that's just my .02 cents...
    Last edited by Gaurav; 07/08/2003 at 10:00 PM.
  15. #15  
    Loccy:

    You said: “The thing that attracted me to the Treo was purely the form-factor. Calendaring aspects of a PDA aside, I needed to be able to update WebPages via some HTML forms while on the road, and while the 9210 was a vastly more powerful bit of kit, the Treo did the job neatly and simply, and fits in my pocket without me looking overly pleased to see people.”

    Your use of metaphor was funny!!!

    The Nokia is intriguing, but it has a 128x128 screen???…so my obvious question is since you said, "I needed to be able to update WebPages via some HTML forms while on the road”…wouldn’t 160x160 be better than 128x128???

    Also the Treo allows you to make keyboard shortcuts for just about anything using the keyboard. So for instance you can program the “P” key so that when you hold it down for a second it will launch your photo viewer or your phone or whatever you program it to. I’ll bet the Nokia does not have that kind of innovation in it.

    I don’t know if you read my review on the front page of treocentral.com but I spoke extensively about the screen. I agree with you and Gfunkmagic about the 160x160 not being ideal, but I actually saw the Treo 600 screen in and outdoors. It is great! It blows away my Treo 270 screen.

    I do not know this for a fact but I would be willing to bet you 1000 to 1 that Palm will rollout a Treo 680 or something like that nomenclature within six months of the Treo 600 becoming available…I would imagine ever sooner. That won’t stop me from obtaining a Treo 600 the first second they become available.

    My plan for whatever it is worth is to buy a Treo 600 and upgrade it the second a higher res screen becomes available. (Before anybody gives me any flack on this, it is a fact that South Koreans upgrade their phone on average every seven months.)

    If you do the same you will be able to recoup the majority of your investment you make in the Treo 600 by selling it on ebay, while enjoying it for a half a year, and then when the higher res models become available, you will be able to update WebPages on the road.

    If you buy the Nokia and then get a chance to see and feel the Treo 600 form factor you will probably experience buyers remorse and end up getting a 600 anyway…I goofed around with one and it is breathtaking. I mean it litterally took my breath away. I could go on forever about how cool I think the Treo 600 is and why you might want to reconsider, but you can just read my review instead.

    Jake
    Last edited by JakeE; 07/09/2003 at 12:37 AM.
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  16. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #16  
    Handspring seriously needs to hire better cheerleader.

    6. What is the resolution and color depth of the display?
    The display is a high-quality active matrix display, with 640 x 200 pixels and 4096 colors. As the pixel size is smaller than in laptops, the screen is sharper, which is why images and documents look so good.

    http://www.nokia.com/cda10?id=1256#6
  17. #17  
    Originally posted by purpleX
    Handspring seriously needs to hire better cheerleader.

    6. What is the resolution and color depth of the display?
    The display is a high-quality active matrix display, with 640 x 200 pixels and 4096 colors. As the pixel size is smaller than in laptops, the screen is sharper, which is why images and documents look so good.

    http://www.nokia.com/cda10?id=1256#6
    You're talking about the wrong device. He is buying the Nokia 6800, not the 9210. The 6800 does have a 128x128 screen.
    2. How many colors does the Nokia 6800's color screen support and what is the size of the display?
    The high-resolution color screen supports 4096 colors within 128 x 128 pixels.
    http://www.nokia.com/cda10?id=4578#3

    Microsoft really should reconsider your appointment as the official Treo detractor on Treo Central
  18. #18  
    PurpleX

    I believe if you CAREFULLY read Loccy’s post, he said he started out with a Nokia 9210, then replaced it with a Treo 300 which he currently uses. He said he intends to upgrade to the Nokia 6800 which he posted the link for:

    http://mobile.burn.com/review.jsp?Id=336

    Please correct me if I misunderstood?

    Speaking of low bit depth, what is yours?

    Jake
    Last edited by JakeE; 07/09/2003 at 01:26 AM.
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  19. #19  
    silverado

    When reffering to PupleX, you said: "Microsoft really should reconsider your appointment as the official Treo detractor on Treo Central"

    I would remind you the Nokia is not a Microsoft product.

    It appears PurpleX is the "Head Cheerleader" or President of the Treo 600 hate fan club. (as in...loves to hate.)

    Why do they call them Head Cheerleaders anyway?

    Jake
    Last edited by JakeE; 07/09/2003 at 03:49 AM.
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
  20. #20  
    PurpleX

    Your wrap, like your mind, is weaker than weak.

    We now know you read like you write.

    Are you suffering from severe A.D.D.??? Did you forget to take your ridilin? Or did you mix your ridilin with crack when you were smoking it?

    I told you not to make me embarrass you in front of your friends, but it seems you must enjoy embarrassing yourself. Some kind of masochistic behavior perhaps?

    Your Kung Fu is weak!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Jake
    There is a great difference between knowing and understanding. You can know a lot about something without understanding it. —Charles Kettering
    -------------------------------------------------
    Treo 600: Love at First Sight by Jake Ehrlich

    Thoughts on the Future of Handheld Computing: A 5 Part Series by Jake Ehrlich
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