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  1. #61  
    Originally posted by jinx
    <<<<<Also, dialing by touching the screen with your fingers?>>>>>

    why dial using the numbers on the screen. you can just graffiti the numbers.
    Graffit requires two-handed operation. People want to be able to dial a phone with one hand.
    --Inspector Gadget

    "Go Go Gadget Pre!!"
    Palm Pre on Sprint

    Palm V--> Palm IIIc--> Visor Prism--> Visor Phone--> Treo 270--> Treo 600--> Treo 650-->
    Treo 700wx--> HTC Touch Diamond--> Palm Pre & HTC EVO 4G.
  2. njchris's Avatar
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    #62  
    Originally posted by purpleX
    This is like reading mini keyboard fetish club bulletin. :P

    Could it be that thumboard is just like grafitti? a temporary patch because of initial developmental difficulties?

    Is it possible that the reason there is so few smartphone with keyboard, because everybody else has much better software technology?

    ...mmm.
    Talk about cynical... Sounds like you don't like the Treo's... Well.. I'll feed you a cookie....

    20%???? I use the keyboard ALL THE TIME. You can dial with the keypad numbers on the keyboard. I type emails all the time on it. I surf on it - entering msgs on forums like this one, or even just name/passwords. I use a chat program (connecting to AIM, Yahoo, ICQ) a LOT during the day. Entering memo's... entering appointments, entering address book info, etc..etc...

    You can read MANY messages about people that were in love with graffiti, until they tried a Treo and now they cannot see themselves going back.
  3. #63  
    Originally posted by purpleX


    okay so you sacrifice a huge screen real estate for 160x160 2.7inch square screen and a thumboard just for that 20% time you need to 'type'.
    The notion that I use my thumboard only one fifth of the time I'm using my Treo is crazy. The shortcuts it allows you are just amazing. With two taps of my finger on **real** buttons, not things displayed on the screen, I can open any of 30+ programs. Instead of tapping on the screen to access menus or trying to position my thumnail just right, I can use the buttons that are already there. Frankly, at least half the benefit of a keyboard (in my use) comes from simply navigating around the device. In the 600 they have taken this concept to a new level. With simply one tap of your finger, you can launch any of 26 applications, email addresses, phone numbers, web pages, whatever. It will be great to simply hold down "H" to call work, "T" to check traffic, "S" for a sports update, etc. And my rant thus far hasn't even touched on the incredible one-handed access a keyboard affords (can't use a stylus with one hand.).
  4. #64  
    Hehehe, I responded before I read all the other responses. Guess we beat this dead horse over and over.
  5. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #65  
    You still didn't address my point that you quoted. We don't use styli with our desktop computers eventhough we have all the power we need to run the best handwriting recognition software. Why do you assume that that's the ultimate goal on a PDA+phone?
    because desktop computer screen is made out of glass and upright. Tablet PC is not something widely available yet. There is also a difference between fullsize keyboard and thumboard, in case you haven't notice.

    Also the small screen is there for many reasons, not only because the keyboard is there. People want smaller devices, especially when it's a phone. So the sacrifice of the bigger screen is largly because of trying to have a reasonably-sized device that would be easy to carry all day and looks normal when you held to your head. These are important factors to the people who are going to buy and use these devices.
    yeah, it's also called, marketing spin. aka. total BS. The japanese is alreayd putting a 2.7 inch VGA screen on their flip phone. You are telling me it's not doable?

    I think Treo development has been on a path of pragmatism and usability.
    pragmatism and usablity? eh hmm it's also called zen botch, although the world also calls it "don't have the cutting edge know how."

    The entire planet is cramming smarter and smarter predictive input and voice recognition into a smartphone, and thumboard is Handspring genius answer to that? heh heh... okay. we've heard this BS before about some POS feature haven't we?

    -------------------
    Graffit requires two-handed operation. People want to be able to dial a phone with one hand.
    It's called VOICE DIALING... no hand operation.... ta da... !

    ----------------------
    You can read MANY messages about people that were in love with graffiti, until they tried a Treo and now they cannot see themselves going back.
    Have YOU ever tried any form of advance soft input?

    hint: there is a reason why thumboard is only used in so few handheld devices.

    -------------------
    The notion that I use my thumboard only one fifth of the time I'm using my Treo is crazy. The shortcuts it allows you are just amazing.
    because in other device, there isn't even any need to use keypad for short cut. Hell you can even assign a macro to voice command, or some fancy pen gesturing to automate pretty knotty text manipulation.

    treo has to rely on thumboard because it DOES NOT have alternative advance input method. that's why all this "amazing short cut" gushiness. Other people just yawn and let the PDA do it without touching it.
  6. #66  
    I'm not really looking for a device that requires I use two hands to dial a phone number. I'm sure other people agree with that.

    Geoffrey

    Originally posted by jinx
    <<<<<Also, dialing by touching the screen with your fingers?>>>>>

    why dial using the numbers on the screen. you can just graffiti the numbers.
  7. #67  
    I think everyone here should know that "purple" is a well known troll. He's grammer, or lack thereof, is clear give-away of who this guy is. Many of you may know him from PIC/Brighthand as "ska" or "vispi". He also goes by blueanon, bluehaze, soulstice, TawnerX and various other aliases. In short, he is nothing but a nuisance whose main objective here is start a fight. In the end he will try to reduce this and every thread he participates in into a useless PalmOS vs PPC rant thereby totally hyjacking the orignal purpose of the discussion. He is not interested in a frank discussion, contibuting to the forum, helping others. His main objective is to troll plain and simple, and more specifically to attack treo users here. Please keep this in mind when you see his posts...

  8. #68  
    Originally posted by purpleX

    treo has to rely on thumboard because it DOES NOT have alternative advance input method. that's why all this "amazing short cut" gushiness. Other people just yawn and let the PDA do it without touching it.
    First, voice recognition for a PDA is complete nonsense ("Excuse me boss, can we interupt this meeting so I can use a voice command on my PDA?", or saying outloud "Note to self: Pick up athlete's foot medication on the way home, before I go to the proctologist to get that growth looked at"). Second, you say "hint: there is a reason why thumboard is only used in so few handheld devices." to which I respond "better hint: there is a reason thumboards are appearing on more and more handhelds." Third, "some fancy pen gesturing to automate pretty knotty text manipulation" completely ignores the fact that such operation still needs two hands.

    Bottom line: keyboards allow one hand operation (and voice dialing, even if it were private, accurate and effective is not zero hands) with quicker data input and a more varied input landscape. You can whine all you want about voice-this, hand-writing that, but the fact of the matter remains I have used each input method for years and there is no way I would ever go back to any two-handed, single dimension method.
  9. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #69  
    Of course voice recognition in smartphone is not at the level of dictation. But it's usable for voice dial. (eg. call dave. Open email. up. down. etc)


    Bottom line: keyboards allow one hand operation (and voice dialing, even if it were private, accurate and effective is not zero hands) with quicker data input and a more varied input landscape. You can whine all you want about voice-this, hand-writing that, but the fact of the matter remains I have used each input method for years and there is no way I would ever go back to any two-handed, single dimension method.
    how can you claim to have "used each" input when it never existed in treo or Palm? eh hmmm...

    advance handwriting recognition in PDA for eg. is only available in PPC and tablet computer, while voice dial is not available in any of Palm product. Fullscreen keyboard with predictive capability also doesn't exist in Palm... etc etc..

    my point: thumboard isn't as a big deal as handheld input as people claim, that's why only very few devices use it.

    ------------

    Some number to go with previous post. Orange has sold 70K SPV. That is in the range of Handspring output.
    http://www.businessweek.com/technolo..._PG2_tc119.htm

    PS. is it just me or that gfunk dude is panicking about something?
  10. Iceman6's Avatar
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    #70  
    Originally posted by purpleX
    PS. is it just me or that gfunk dude is panicking about something?
    I would say, he's on to you, and now we all are.
  11. #71  
    Originally posted by purpleX
    [B]my point: thumboard isn't as a big deal as handheld input as people claim, that's why only very few devices use it.
    Let's look at reality here. The thumboard is showing up on *more* devices while pen based input is showing up on *less.* You want to compare your imaginary input to thumboards? Please please please point me to the millions that have been sold. Then compare that to the number of Blackberries, Treos, Tungsten Ws, Clies with keyboards and Sharps. And yet you still make the argument the keyboard is a manufacturer's cop-out. Blarg.
  12. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #72  
    There are more iPAQ3000 class in the world than the combined units you mention. Zire alone can beat those number.

    The crapola SPV alone already sold as many as treo. It has numpad, not thumboard.

    for each model you name, there are 5 other handheld with no thumboard I can name.

    thumboard doesn't really make sense once better alternative soft input is available.

    --------
    iceman6,
    I've heard that before too.
    I'll see if I can entertain you.
    are you ready?
  13. #73  
    Originally posted by purpleX
    There are more iPAQ3000 class in the world than the combined units you mention.
    I find that hard to believe! Care to show some proof of this? Specifcally the total sales of 3000 sereies vs all BB's, treos, Danger hiptops, thumborad clies, Zaurus, TW etc...I doubt you can.

    The crapola SPV alone already sold as many as treo. It has numpad, not thumboard
    Actually Ska, HS has sold at least >200,000 treos which is more than the 70,000 Orange SPV's you've mentioned. Also, why hasn't the SPV been released in NA yet?

    thumboard doesn't really make sense once better alternative soft input is available.
    We've already had this discussion here ska/blueanon/vispi. You used the same arguements before and no one agreed with you so why do you think anyone will agree here? Again this all about choice and how one uses their device. You think all devices should be like PPC handhelds b/c thats what you prefer. However, that doesn't mean that there aren't other options out there with different target markets. HS has created a nice niche for itself by integrating a thumbboard. It doesn't need the whole smartphone industry to switch to thumbboards to be proved right about its philosophy. Rather if they can manage to get 2-5% of this emerging market, I can think it will be sufice to say they made the right decision...Btw, I wouldn't be so certain if I were you if we didn't see more "Windows Mobile" smartphones with thumbboards as well...
  14. #74  
    Please Don't Feed the Trolls.
    Felipe
    On the road to 5,000 posts
    Life is what happens between Firmware releases.
  15. Iceman6's Avatar
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    #75  
    It would be a boring world if they built them all to the same spec.
  16. #76  
    Originally posted by purpleX
    There are more iPAQ3000 class in the world than the combined units you mention. Zire alone can beat those number.

    The crapola SPV alone already sold as many as treo. It has numpad, not thumboard.

    for each model you name, there are 5 other handheld with no thumboard I can name.

    thumboard doesn't really make sense once better alternative soft input is available.
    You seem to have an inability to maintain accurate comparisons. I'm certainly done interacting with you. I was hoping the above post was untrue but alas I stand corrected. Oh well.
  17. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #77  
    Originally posted by gfunkmagic

    I find that hard to believe! Care to show some proof of this? Specifcally the total sales of 3000 sereies vs all BB's, treos, Danger hiptops, thumborad clies, Zaurus, TW etc...I doubt you can.
    The total number of 3000 series is around 1-1.2M.


    HS has sold at least >200,000 treos which is more than the 70,000 Orange SPV's you've mentioned. Also, why hasn't the SPV been released in NA yet?
    sorry, I mean quarterly sale. (yes total number 180,270,300 are higher)

    SPV is gone already. It's SPV E100 now. I don't know what MS is planning, but it seems smartphone 2k3 has something to do with the delay in North America. No carier wants to release 2k2 just before 2k3 release.

    But you will know soon enough after it hits and how it will affect treo. It is also possible that smartphone will be a total flop in US or doesn't affect treo sales at all... but then again maybe it will crash head on against treo.

    If european market is any lesson, Hanspring should be plenty scared.


    Again this all about choice and how one uses their device.
    If it is about choice, treo sales performance in the past 2 years doesn't show they have convinced people in drove to choose thumboard/treo as their main gadget. (unless you seriously think selling 40-60K units/Q is what smartphone is all about)

    ------------
    You seem to have an inability to maintain accurate comparisons.
    well, make YOUR version of comparison then. I am interested to see since you are the one who said "but the fact of the matter remains I have used each input method for years "

    tho' for some reason I have the feeling all you have used is primarily just treo and probably one or two old palm models.
  18. Iceman6's Avatar
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    #78  
    Originally posted by purpleX
    tho' for some reason I have the feeling all you have used is primarily just treo and probably one or two old palm models.
    Not acceptable, buddy. Grow up or get out.
  19. purpleX
    purpleX's Avatar
    #79  
    You mean he has used other device than the one with limited input capability such as treo lines or older Palm models?

    do explain if you are the mature one in the crowd.

    Also explain the key feature of thumboard. ... you know, educate me. maybe I got it all wrong about all these soft input situation.
  20. #80  
    PurpleX:

    I will respond this time but I will not anymore if your responses continue to contain "heh heh", etc. I would like to think that we are conducting a debate of ideas in an effort to find the best ones. If the intent of this is to score points and laugh at each other, then I don't want to participate.

    Originally posted by purpleX

    because desktop computer screen is made out of glass and upright. Tablet PC is not something widely available yet. There is also a difference between fullsize keyboard and thumboard, in case you haven't notice.
    I believe you missed my point. Let me try to explain it further. You are claiming that stylus input is much better than using a small keyboard. I responded by asking why you are assuming that stylus input is desirable? Why don't people use stylus input with desktop computers, instead of keyboards.

    If handwriting was the preferred input method, it can easily be done with a desktop computer using an input tablet. We don't need to write on the screen. You could also easily use voice input. Why don't people do that a lot more often than they do today? It's because typing is so much more efficient that writing. And it's because voice input is not very convenient in many situations. See below.

    yeah, it's also called, marketing spin. aka. total BS. The japanese is alreayd putting a 2.7 inch VGA screen on their flip phone. You are telling me it's not doable?
    Please don't switch points. You were saying that keyboards are making us use small screens. We were not talking about resolution. Why are we talking about high-resoution screens all of a sudden? And, eventhough this is beside the point, I didn't say it is not doable. I can talk about resolution later if you want.

    pragmatism and usablity? eh hmm it's also called zen botch, although the world also calls it "don't have the cutting edge know how."
    What evidence do you have to refute that the Treo has great usability? There are far too many glowing reviews of the Treo. How many bad reviews have you seen? Just claiming that it doesn't have great usability isn't an argument.

    Sales numbers of a product are by no means an indication of its usability. We all know that marketing plays a huge deal in affecting sales. We also know of many great products that failed because of bad marketing and sales. The fact that they failed has no bearing on their usability.
    The entire planet is cramming smarter and smarter predictive input and voice recognition into a smartphone, and thumboard is Handspring genius answer to that? heh heh... okay. we've heard this BS before about some POS feature haven't we?
    Predictive text is great, but it is not an input method on its own. You can build predictive features on top of any input method. For example, you can use predictive text with the Treo where your input method is the keyboard. CIC has a product that does just that (I believe it's called WordComplete).

    Now, back to input methods. I'll try to list the ones that have been mentioned and state why I think a keyboard is superior in a converged device.

    Handwriting recognition:

    Requires two hands. This is a HUGE deal and goes directly to usability. Example: firing off that urgent SMS while in a bus hanging by one hand. Please don't say this is a silly example. It illustrates the point very clearly and I can give you countless others.

    HWR has its place. Maybe in a large, PDA-only or tablet-type device, where the normal mode of operations is to hold it with a pen in hand and where you have a large enough surface to write on. In places where you need to be as quiet as possible. In situations where you don't want to look at your device while writing. I use RechoEcho+ on my Treo for that sometimes.

    HOWEVER, if I had to choose only one input method, or a primary input method, it would definitely be the keyboard for the above reason. It is crucial.

    Voice recognition:

    - Requires a quiet environment
    - No privacy
    - not 100% accurate

    Example: Sending that SMS from the bus mentioned above.

    All the reasons voice recognition isn't use much more in the office environment get amplified when using a mobile device. Remember that we are not talking about dialing numbers alone.

    On-screen keypad/keyboard:

    - Inaccurate - no tactile feedback. This is extremely inconvenient compared even to a regular numeric keypad.
    - Requires a stylus for anything other than a numeric keypad.

    It's called VOICE DIALING... no hand operation.... ta da... !
    Voice dialing is a special case of voice recognition, so all the above points apply. Assuming we can forget about anything other than dialing numbers for a moment, how do you dial a number you haven't stored in your device using voice dialing? Try dialing "two one two five five five one two one two" at a noisy airport terminal.
    Have YOU ever tried any form of advance soft input?
    Yes, I have used it on a tablet PC running Windows XP Tablet PC Edition. It was really nice. But see what I wrote above regarding its suitability for my one converged device.
    hint: there is a reason why thumboard is only used in so few handheld devices.
    First lets make it clear we are not talking about all hand-held devices. We are talking about PDA+phone communicator-type devices. We shouldn't lump all handhelds into this discussion.

    Now, the reason keyboards are not found on many communicator-type devices is that it's a relatively new idea that is expanding in use.

    By the same token, how many email-only devices out there use anything but a keyboard? How many Blackberry immitators are coming out?

    because in other device, there isn't even any need to use keypad for short cut. Hell you can even assign a macro to voice command, or some fancy pen gesturing to automate pretty knotty text manipulation.

    treo has to rely on thumboard because it DOES NOT have alternative advance input method. that's why all this "amazing short cut" gushiness. Other people just yawn and let the PDA do it without touching it.
    See my comments above regarding voice input, handwriting and lumping all PDAs/handhelds into a discussion about converged phones.
    Last edited by silverado; 06/30/2003 at 08:01 PM.
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