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  1. #541  
    Originally posted by Stickman
    I hope that you don't think this to be a dumb question, but isn't replying to an email on the Nokia 3650 going to be a pain since the imput methodology is T9 text entry?
    Without a stylus or keypad, I've always found inputing info to be frustrating.
    Maybe I'm missing something and if so, I appologize.
    It could be T9 or just tapping letter by letter. Not to mention the fact that it is a rotary-style number layout, something that we haven't been exposed to for, I dunno, at least a decade.
  2. vaylen's Avatar
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    #542  
    Originally posted by silverado

    You're not suggesting that they put a CRT on the Treo, are you?

    How do you think they could create such an LCD screen and sell it at reasonable prices? No one else has yet done that. The SGH-i500 turned out to have 160x160 pixels.

    I think some of us should stop asking for the impossible (or at least, the economically infeasible) just because we would really really really like to have it. We're supposed to be an atypical, "geeky" crowd that would understand technical specs. I wish we would give the technical debate its due attention before we descend into wishing for features.
    No, I'm not suggesting they put a CRT on the Treo. But instead of making a screen less than 2 inches and eclipsing any use this device would have as an internet browser, I'd say they would have been smarter to make the screen the minimum resolution required for this task. The Tungsten does 320x320 in a 2.3 inch screen. If they couldn't find a manufacturer of a screen which could do that resolution on a smaller screen, they would have been wiser to find other ways to keep the size of the phone down while keeping a 2.3 inch screen (a thumbpad which slides out and a shorter and wider antenna come to mind). In my experience, it's the thickness of the phone that was the biggest drawback, not the width. And by removing the hinge plate they are reducing the thickness problem. Making the phone shorter wouldn't hurt. As I've said all along, I'm not suggesting they abandon the 600, I just think they need to have a more powerful version for power users. This is why we even have 270/300 phones instead of being stuck with just the 180. What I am suggesting is technically possible, PalmSpring just needs to make up their mind whether they want their device to have any real use as a web browser.
  3. #543  
    I generally agree. In fact, to me, if they could slim down a Hiptop to about 1/2 (or even 2/3) the thickness, with the Palm OS, and Outlook/desktop syncing, it'd be the bomb. You get a touch screen phone (ala the Samsung I330)/pda when you need it, AND a large, landscape screen and keyboard when you want to email and/or surf. It's the device I'd buy.

    TM
  4. #544  
    I disagree about the thickness. I think the main problem was the width. Most cell phones are actually thicker than the Treo but are not as wide, making them more comfortable to hold and use one-handed. Of course, using one-handedly requires more than just narrowing the existing Treo. It also requires being able to navigate and dial one-handedly. The changes they've made address those things, which is good. But they could have also been achieved by implementing a design along the lines of this:
    http://hipnetic.com/geek/treo_new2.gif

    Or this:
    http://hipnetic.com/geek/treo_new4.gif
    (This last one would still be just as wide as the current model though)

    Those designs would have the added advantage of being better data devices thanks to the larger thumbboard and higher-res screens as compared to the Treo 600.

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  5. #545  
    Originally posted by Scott R
    ...But they could have also been achieved by implementing a design along the lines of this:
    http://hipnetic.com/geek/treo_new2.gif

    Or this:
    http://hipnetic.com/geek/treo_new4.gif
    (This last one would still be just as wide as the current model though)

    Those designs would have the added advantage of being better data devices thanks to the larger thumbboard and higher-res screens as compared to the Treo 600.

    Scott [/B]
    Both of those designs contain one of the key features that I beleive HS (and carriers) wanted to remove from the current design- a hinge. Look at the high failure/replacement rates due to speaker failure.
  6. #546  
    Originally posted by dspires
    Both of those designs contain one of the key features that I beleive HS (and carriers) wanted to remove from the current design- a hinge. Look at the high failure/replacement rates due to speaker failure.
    Possibly true. But how about the obvious solution of building a stronger hinge? Let's face it, flip-phones are extremely common. Just because Handspring designed theirs cheaply doesn't mean a better one can't be made.

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  7. #547  
    I've been reading alot of the argument about the screen being only low-res, and someone argued that the general public doesn't care about the screen res and that they want a smaller phone. I agree that the size of the phone is an issue for the public, but the main issue for them is cost. Look how many more Treo 300's have sold within the past couple months at the $150 price and you'll see what i mean. Maybe in order to keep the cost of the Treo 600 down, they decided that a low resolution screen was the only choice they could make. For example, I know that I have been looking at the Treo 300 for a long time. When it first came out, I thought it was cool, but way too expensive, but at the price of $150 dollars, its even affordable to a cheap college student like me, and alot of others as well.

    Also, you have to remember that until a week or so ago, that this was the product that would either keep Handspring alive, or push them into failure. They needed as many buyers as possible. This was never the situation when the other Treos were designed, so perhaps they had to rethink some of their ideas to save the company. Now that they do have more funding due to the buyout by Palm, perhaps they will be able to make the dream PDA/ phone that you all want.

    However one last thing I wanna say is that I like the horizontal flip mockup thats shown above, and I've actually been thinking that would be a good idea for a Treo for quite a while.
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    #548  
    Just read howard chui's review of the Sony Ericsson T610, which howard says is Sony's replacement for the T68. It's a small, high-end phone, priced at $549.99 on just-talk.com. 3.7" tall x 1.7" wide, and the screen looks to be maybe 1.6" wide, maybe 1.5".

    128 x 160 pixels

    I am thinking that 160 x 160 pixels is state of the art for a high-end phone that will fit in your pocket.
  9. #549  
    Originally posted by Iceman6
    I am thinking that 160 x 160 pixels is state of the art for a high-end phone that will fit in your pocket.
    Haven't you been following this thread? The Nokia 3650, Danger Sidekick, and even the (yuck) MS Smartphone have higher res displays. Lower than 320x320, yes, but higher than 160x160.

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
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    #550  
    OK, let me restate that. I think that ~.26mm pitch is state of the art for smartphones, with pixel count strictly a function of the size of the screen.

    For another example, the Nokia 3650 is a larger phone than the Treo 600, measuring 5.1" high x 2.24" wide x 1" thick (13 cm x 5.7 cm x 2.6 cm). The screen also appears to be wider and higher than the Treo 600's. The pixel count is 176 x 208.
  11. #551  
    To a degree, it seems those for whom a hi-res (320X320) screen is a must and those for whom it is a secondary issue seem to have long since begun speaking past one another. It seems that if your primary use of a converged device is wireless internet browsing, I don't think the Treo is your ideal device. Moreover, I do not believe it was designed as a great internet browser. However, if, like me, your needs are more of the mobile professional with a family variety, where planner and cell phone greatly outweigh wireless internet in importance, with the cell phone and planner being about equal in importance, then this is nearly the perfect device. The screen in reportedly a significant improvement in actual user experience from the current Treo with a better overall form factor, I feel, along with a keyboard all fit to maximize one handed operation.

    From the images that have been posted, while more info may fit in a 320X320, I think a lot of that, at least with the work I might do on a Treo 600, would be for nought as most of the added info would be too small to be useable on a less than 2 inch screen. Therefore, I think if the screen was 320X320, I'd just be adjusting it such that the additional pixels would largely become irrelevent.

    Furthermore, for my usage, the landscape flip units are unreasonably clumsy. I would just feel awkward running around, trying to use one of my planner aps and trying to use a device with a larger keyboard like those devices have, not to mention the awkward way you have to hold those devices.

    For those who have needs similar to mine, I believe HS has struck the best compromises and produced a great device (obviously subject to change when I actually get to hold one). I can not wait to get one, probably when the put out a GSM version.

    JMHO

    Gargoyle
  12. #552  
    "Furthermore, for my usage, the landscape flip units are unreasonably clumsy. I would just feel awkward running around, trying to use one of my planner aps and trying to use a device with a larger keyboard like those devices have, not to mention the awkward way you have to hold those devices."


    Have you held a Hiptop with the screen open, and used the keyboard? It's actually quite nice, and easy IMO. Nothing clumsy about it. However, when closed the device is too thick.

    Another thing I've heard about the hinges (to the comments earlier) is some anecdotal evidence that Sony is having problems with its NX and NZ series Palms. So yes, one solution is to build a better/stronger hinge, but even Sony apparently has some problems in this regard. On the other hand, maybe people have been manhandling the devices, not treating them like the intricate pieces of electronics that they are?

    TM
  13. vaylen's Avatar
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    #553  
    Originally posted by gargoylejps
    To a degree, it seems those for whom a hi-res (320X320) screen is a must and those for whom it is a secondary issue seem to have long since begun speaking past one another. It seems that if your primary use of a converged device is wireless internet browsing, I don't think the Treo is your ideal device. Moreover, I do not believe it was designed as a great internet browser. However, if, like me, your needs are more of the mobile professional with a family variety, where planner and cell phone greatly outweigh wireless internet in importance, with the cell phone and planner being about equal in importance, then this is nearly the perfect device. The screen in reportedly a significant improvement in actual user experience from the current Treo with a better overall form factor, I feel, along with a keyboard all fit to maximize one handed operation.

    From the images that have been posted, while more info may fit in a 320X320, I think a lot of that, at least with the work I might do on a Treo 600, would be for nought as most of the added info would be too small to be useable on a less than 2 inch screen. Therefore, I think if the screen was 320X320, I'd just be adjusting it such that the additional pixels would largely become irrelevent.

    Furthermore, for my usage, the landscape flip units are unreasonably clumsy. I would just feel awkward running around, trying to use one of my planner aps and trying to use a device with a larger keyboard like those devices have, not to mention the awkward way you have to hold those devices.

    For those who have needs similar to mine, I believe HS has struck the best compromises and produced a great device (obviously subject to change when I actually get to hold one). I can not wait to get one, probably when the put out a GSM version.

    JMHO

    Gargoyle
    You make a reasonable and compelling arguement. There are two camps. You think Treo should go in your direction, and that's understandable. I would point out, however, that many people didn't need their palm/phone combo device be in color either. If they were to tell you that Treo should not make a 300 because the 180 is cheaper to make and will appeal to more consumers I doubt that would have much sway with you.

    You don't want your phone for browsing the web. I get that. I am not holding out any hope that PalmSpring will redesign the 600 to make it possible to do that in any useful sense. But I am putting out my feelings (that I think are shared by many others out there) and that is, we won't buy the 600 any more than we would buy the 180. Just like we demand a color screen, we demand a screen with high enough resolution to make web browsing practical. With the 270/300 improvement over the 180 that meant it got thicker and people generally accepted that. I am willing to accept a screen that is .3 inches wider than the 600 to get my 320x320. Many people will agree with me and let their dollars do the talking, and others who feel more like you do will buy the 600 and be happy with it, as I'm sure there were some happy owners of the 180 when it came out.

    Maybe Treo can't make one device that makes us all happy, but I'm not going to say that there's no market for web browsing because there is. It just remains to be seen whether PalmSpring wants to be a leader in this market.
  14. #554  
    Originally posted by vaylen

    I would point out, however, that many people didn't need their palm/phone combo device be in color either. If they were to tell you that Treo should not make a 300 because the 180 is cheaper to make and will appeal to more consumers I doubt that would have much sway with you.
    No color is one of the reasons the Blackberry is so wonderful. Just one less thing to worry about. The battery life is just spectacular and the black and white screen is very easy to read. It's also quite professional (doesn't look like a toy).

    <Editted so last phrase doesn't read "doesn't look like a toe">
    Last edited by KRamsauer; 06/11/2003 at 07:35 PM.
  15. #555  
    [i](doesn't look like a toe). [/B]
    a TOE?? ok, i'm missing something...
    Change is a challenge to the adventurous, an opportunity to the alert, a threat to the insecure.
  16. #556  
    Originally posted by silverado


    You are the first person to come on and respond to what I said and say this. I stated what the Samsung web site still says and, upto the time I said the comment you are referring to above, no one had contradicted me. Why didn't you "correct" me earlier if you thought I was wrong...
    I responded as soon as a read your post. I don't necessarily check these boards every day...

    So, back to facts. I would like to read some specs that say that. Samsung hasn't corrected the information and I couldn't find anything on their web site that says otherwise. This infosync article raises the same question. My search of the web hasn't found any information to the contrary. The flash demo you point to says 324x352 resolution. I would have taken that to mean pixels had they not split hairs and made a distinction on their website. KRamsauer referred to a German PUG review. Sorry, but I can't take that over what the manufacturer says, especially given the general lack of expertise in screen resolutions/pixels coupled with what seems to be potentially misleading (and at a minimum confusing) language from Samsung.

    I'll believe it when Samsung says it or I see it. I will consider it if you point me to a competent source that said it.

    Support of 324x352 resolution can mean something very different from 324x352 pixels. The information on Samsung's web site is leading me to believe that they mean that if you use a double-density app (written for OS 5), it will display fine on their screen. I can make a 3000x4000 pixel picture display on a VGA screen using software. That's not very impressive.

    And I don't like the Treo 600. I haven't even seen it yet. I am sincerely in search of facts so that I could make informed decisions and I am sharing my thoughts and analysis with everyone here like you and others are doing.
    There is also another possibilty as others have theorized on other forums: perhaps the phone software might be using 160x160 while the PalmOS mode will be switched to 320x320? The assumption is that the SGH does have a 320x320 display with a normal Samsung phone software (PalmOS switched off) running at 160x160 (standard Samsung colour phones runs at a similar res). That would explain the "320x320 pixel support" reference. Also, the German PUG site you refer to states that display size of the SGH corresponds about to that of the Palm m100. I don't recall the screen size of the m100, but this may help clarify the actual sreen dimensions of the SGH and it comparison to the Treo600.
    Last edited by Gaurav; 06/11/2003 at 09:12 PM.
  17. #557  
    Originally posted by Scott R
    I disagree about the thickness. I think the main problem was the width. Most cell phones are actually thicker than the Treo but are not as wide, making them more comfortable to hold and use one-handed. Of course, using one-handedly requires more than just narrowing the existing Treo. It also requires being able to navigate and dial one-handedly. The changes they've made address those things, which is good. But they could have also been achieved by implementing a design along the lines of this:
    http://hipnetic.com/geek/treo_new2.gif

    Or this:
    http://hipnetic.com/geek/treo_new4.gif
    (This last one would still be just as wide as the current model though)

    Those designs would have the added advantage of being better data devices thanks to the larger thumbboard and higher-res screens as compared to the Treo 600.

    Scott
    I must say Scott, your design mockups have gotten very, very good! I especially like the flip phone design a la nokia 9110. I assume the flip lid in your designs rotate similar to the NX series clies? The only thing that would improve upon would be an internal antenna, but thats just knit picking! I only wish HS had relased soemthing like this! Maybe you should send your designs to them to give them ideas huh? Just make sure you get those lisencing fees!
  18. #558  
    Originally posted by gfunkmagic

    only thing that would improve upon would be an internal antenna, but thats just knit picking!
    You won't like this mockup of Scott's, I bet! http://hipnetic.com/geek/treo_new5.gif
  19. #559  
    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    You won't like this mockup of Scott's, I bet! http://hipnetic.com/geek/treo_new5.gif
    LOL!! Yes, that could cause...er...painful accidents in your pants!!
  20. #560  
    Originally posted by gfunkmagic
    I must say Scott, your design mockups have gotten very, very good!
    Thanks. Those ones I linked to were probably done over a month ago. You must have missed me talking about them in an older thread. I'm thinking of doing this sort of thing on goodthatway.com every so ofter. IOW, have an article with some mockups of what I think would make a good smartphone or PDA, or improvements to the Palm OS or PPC GUI, etc.

    As others have already said, it is doubtful that one device can meet everyone's needs (though, I personally think my mini-Communicator style mockup possibly could since it would be a powerful PDA when opened and a traditional phone when closed). Handspring is trying to capture the largest single market by betting that that piece of the pie wants something more like a traditional phone (i.e. - small) while hoping that they'll get past the initial concern about the tiny thumbboard and learn to love it once they try it.

    But, again, this doesn't meet the wants/needs of some of us who want a higher res screen, so hopefully other Palm OS licensees will offer additional options.

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.

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