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  1. #381  
    It is CDMA Version for Sprint's 1900MHz 1xRTT network. It's not proper to mention it as single, dual or tri-band. The latter are used to mention the GSM/GPRS network.

    Originally posted by cbtrussell
    One thing I haven't seen specifically addressed is whether or not the new 600 is a single band device or not. Screen res be damned, I'll take dual or tri band over the current single-band achilles heel any day

    B
  2. #382  
    Originally posted by UGlee
    It is CDMA Version for Sprint's 1900MHz 1xRTT network. It's not proper to mention it as single, dual or tri-band. The latter are used to mention the GSM/GPRS network.

    HUH? No, you can have trimode cdma mobiles. The modes would be AMPS 800 / CDMA 800 / CDMA 1900. The Sprint SCP-5300 is a prime example of such a phone...
  3. #383  
    SORRY, not familiar with cellular network in America. I am a Chinese.

    Originally posted by gfunkmagic


    HUH? No, you can have trimode cdma mobiles. The modes would be AMPS 800 / CDMA 800 / CDMA 1900. The Sprint SCP-5300 is a prime example of such a phone...
  4. #384  
    I have been a Treo user for a long time and have been very pleased with the device overall but desired many of the improvements that seem to be all made in the new Treo except one. A voice recorder. For my practical business use I can make it without a high resolution screen especially since it is now visible in sunlight. I was talking with another manager in my company about the new Treo and how pleased I was with it. I told him there was only one missing feature that I would practically use on a regular basis especially in a business environment, he told me that would make him buy it and I should suggest it to Handpring.

    I am certain they will read this newsgroup so I will list it here and you all can comment on it.

    Imagine having an mp3 recorder built into the Treo 600 that used the existing speakerphone mic. I just bought a Ripflash recorder that does this. I'm not just talking about a regular voice recorder like some other phones have, the MP3 recorder would record it in a format that would be compatible with PC's and some car and DVD players. All managers have to have meetings with their employees, imagine the ability of sitting your Treo 600 on the conference room table and recording the entire meeting with your Treo in MP3 format. Then when you get back to your office, you sync it with your PC and name the file according to the meeting with the date in it. Imagine a commercial showing managers that. This could also be used for recording idea notes, songs off the radio, lecture notes, speeches, and getting phone #'s, or driving directions audibly from someone.

    This feature may not require any hardware alterations and could possibly be done using the existing mic and have the software where it can access that mic. This could even record phone conversations in MP3. For business users (as the price range would draw) the MP3 recorder would be of much greater use than the camera.

    Could anybody else use this feature?
  5. #385  
    Originally posted by HAPPY$BOBBY$

    Also does anyone know if the SGH i500 is even coming to sprint or verizon Only.
    The SPH-I500 will definitely be appearing on the Sprint network. Verizon may follow later but don't bet on it.

    The SGH-I500 is a GSM phone and thus is not compatible with the Sprint CDMA network. While it should be possible to take any given SGH-I500 and have it work in the US, no US carriers have been announced for this device (Samsing only has plans to sell the SGH-I500 in Europe at this point).
  6. #386  
    make an estimation of the price.

    Start with the Zire 71. 300$. Lowest price according to PriceWatch is 270$. minus 10% marginal profit, the cost is about 250$. change the screen to CSTN then add more battery and memory, almost maintain the same cost. Then add a radio module, about 100$, make a 350$. plus 25% marginal profit, we get a final 440$. Sounds pretty good, eh?

    maybe some discount from Sprint. say 50$. Then you can have this fabulous toy at <400$. Really envy you American guy.
  7. #387  
    The arguments about screen res not being important don't cut it for me. Here's why. Who is Handspring targeting with this phone, average Joes, power users, or corporate types? Based on the price point I've been seeing floating about ($300 or more), I'd say the latter two.

    You can get a Nokia 3650 with Bluetooth, a somewhat more traditional numeric keypad, camera, and more for free after rebates right now. Average consumers are eating these up.

    The color Danger device is coming out tomorrow for about $300 (camera is optional at about $30-40, but I personally would disregard this anyway because initial samples of the picture quality are horrid). It's not cheap, but by the time the Treo 600 comes out, I'd expect it to be selling for less than this initial $300 price. With the roomier thumbboard and multitasking OS, it makes a more capable IM and email device (unless you have more high-end requirements for email such as dealing with a corporate back-end). The screen res is higher at 240x160, so browsing web pages will be a bit nicer as well.

    So, who's left? People who want to run Palm OS software. A good number of these will favor a Palm OS smartphone over the Danger or Nokia device because of the touchscreen and ability to edit Word documents, etc. But, again, the low-res screen becomes a major issue here. The Tungsten W (as awful as it is) makes a bit better corporate device thanks to its higher res screen. Of course, I would have previously guessed that Palm would have an updated version of the Tungsten W (with OS5) out around the time that this Treo 600 came out, but with yesterday's buyout announcement, that may not happen.

    As I said before, I think that Handspring needs to embrace the data aspects of their device and try to learn more from devices such as the Danger Hiptop (e.g. - make the thumbboard bigger in a clamshell design so that you still keep the overall device small), not try to copy the more phone-centric makers since these guys will be selling their phones cheaper (again, you can get a Nokia 3650 for free).

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  8. #388  
    "SORRY, not familiar with cellular network in America. I am a Chinese.

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by gfunkmagic


    HUH? No, you can have trimode cdma mobiles. The modes would be AMPS 800 / CDMA 800 / CDMA 1900. The Sprint SCP-5300 is a prime example of such a phone...
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "




    You're not incorrect actually. Band and Mode are not the same things. Band, as you point out, is the proper way to describe the frequencies that various GSM systems operate on - as you point out -, like 900, 1800 and 1900, so a GSM phone is either single, dual or triband. Mode, dual mode or tri mode refers to the various frequencies and 'systems' that other phones operate on. Dont ask me why, it's just always been that way.

    TM
  9. Iceman6's Avatar
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    #389  
    I own a Kyo 6035, which is a brick. It rides around in my briefcase, whereas I need it in my pocket. Needless to say, I think the Treo 300 is also a brick. I have been waiting for the SP H-i500, but now I am not so sure. Judging from the video clip and the sketch, the Treo 600 is hot! Some random thoughts:
    1. The SG H-i500 has a fatal flaw: the graffiti area is in the top part of the flip. This phone has a lot of features, but no usability as a PDA.
    2. The SP H-i500 also has a fatal flaw: no speakerphone. This means you can't use it as a PDA while you are talking on the phone.
    3. What I want is, a phone that also works as a PIM and a web browser, that fits in my pocket. Strip it down to its essentials. I am quite excited about what I see in the Treo 600, and I think it is no accident that Jeff H had this phone in his hand at the Palm buyout press conference. IMO, Palm bought Handspring in order to get this phone, and the team that designed it. I think they will sell them by the truckload.
    4. 160 by 160 doesn't bother me at all, because it is an appropriate number for the size of the screen itself. It gives you a pitch of .26, which is fine.
    5. The big question for me about this phone is the keyboard. The rest of the phone works for me, but those keys look too close together to be usable for thumb typing.
    6. Is this just a digital phone? Or will it also support analog roaming, like every other Sprint PCS phone.

    By the way, thanks to everyone for a great discussion of this revolutionary phone! I learned a lot.
  10. #390  
    Originally posted by anthonymoody
    "SORRY, not familiar with cellular network in America. I am a Chinese.

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by gfunkmagic


    HUH? No, you can have trimode cdma mobiles. The modes would be AMPS 800 / CDMA 800 / CDMA 1900. The Sprint SCP-5300 is a prime example of such a phone...
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "




    You're not incorrect actually. Band and Mode are not the same things. Band, as you point out, is the proper way to describe the frequencies that various GSM systems operate on - as you point out -, like 900, 1800 and 1900, so a GSM phone is either single, dual or triband. Mode, dual mode or tri mode refers to the various frequencies and 'systems' that other phones operate on. Dont ask me why, it's just always been that way.

    TM
    Yes, you are correct regarding the definitions of band and mode. However that is precisely why I said "tri-mode" to describe the SCP-5300. It supports the analog 800 freq. as well and both digital bands. I actually just copied that info direct from the phonescoop dicitonaries FYI...

    Many phones are advertised as being "tri-mode" or "dual-band", etc. These refer to the combination of technologies and frequncy bands the phone supports.

    AMPS is the analog technology, which has inferior features and quality, but often superior coverage. Digital technologies include CDMA, TDMA, and GSM.

    The two frequency bands in the US are 800 MHz (Cellular) and 1900 MHz (PCS). Europe and many other parts of the world use 900 MHz and 1800 MHz. The 800 MHz band is also sometimes referred to as 850, specfically when referring to the new "GSM 850" mode.

    As an example, a CDMA tri-mode phone would support AMPS 800, CDMA 800, and CDMA 1900. That means it would work in both frequency bands in digital, and also work in analog (which is only 800 MHz.) The same is true for TDMA.

    A dual-mode CDMA phone could be either AMPS 800 / CDMA 1900, or AMPS 800 / CDMA 800. Same for TDMA.

    GSM is the dominant standard in Europe and many other parts of the world, and so there are also dual-band and tri-band GSM "world" phones that support GSM 1900 and one or both of the European frequency bands.
  11. #391  
    Originally posted by Iceman6
    Needless to say, I think the Treo 300 is also a brick.
    This is a matter of personal opinion, so I can't really argue with you, but I'll do it anyway. The Treo 300 when closed is pretty small. I carry it around in my front pants pocket naked as it provides all the protection it needs for the touchscreen (I do dedicate my left pocket to it with no other objects so as to not scratch the craptacular painted plastic). It's not as small as some of the super-small phones out these days (or this Treo 600) but it's short enough that in my pocket, I can still sit down comfortably.

    Originally posted by Iceman6
    I am quite excited about what I see in the Treo 600, and I think it is no accident that Jeff H had this phone in his hand at the Palm buyout press conference. IMO, Palm bought Handspring in order to get this phone, and the team that designed it.
    I tend to doubt that. If Palm knew about this device already and loved it so much, they could have designed one of their own. It's not really rocket science as it's still primarily based on the Palm OS.

    Originally posted by Iceman6
    I think they will sell them by the truckload.
    I think that will largely depend on the price point. <$200, truckload possibly. >$300, more likely by the Mini Cooper-load.

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  12. #392  
    Originally posted by gargoylejps
    gfunkmagic,

    When discussing the screen, let's not confuse performance with specs. If the screen is as those who have actually seen the device report and readable outdoors then for the bulk of uses you stated earlier I honestly don't think 320X320 would offer a huge improvement in usability in this device. I could see a benefit in the graphics intensive applications, like higher end games and presentation work, but I honestly don't think that is the target audience for this device. Again, and I reserve final judgement until actually seeing the device in person, it sounds like, from the reports we have gotten, HS was able to get similar usability results from tweaking a "low res" technology as they would have had they gone with the "hi res" some are crying about. If this is in fact the case, I'm giving a pat on the back to Hawkins and his team for making the right decision and giving me more battery life and a lower price without sacraficing real usability.

    JMHO

    Gargoyle

    ps, Remember, just because you can, does not mean you should.
    Hmmm... Reading all the responses after my post, I get the feeling I'm lone dissenter here.

    Okay, let me try to explain my perspective here. I consider myself a power user. I truely enjoy my Treo 300 for what it does and I have been arguing its functionality as the best all around convergence device for some time now. It is neither a great pda nor great phone, but together it offered the best convergence of the two available. The pda part of the Treo 300 is quite dated I think we can agree: OS 3.5, low rez 160x160 transmisive screen, no expansion. But for $350 (what I paid at the time after rebates activation fees etc), I was willing to overlook these deficiencies b/c I recognized the overall funtionality of the device. I did this even though I knew for $350 bucks I could get a very nice pda at that price point (T|T, NR70v etc at the time). And as time passed and even more powerful PalmOS devices appeared, however I decided to remain with the Treo hopeful that HS would soon come up with the goods to compete with all the other devices, and they did...almost. I think of putting a 160x160 CSTN screen in the Treo 600 to putting real crappy tires on a super fast sportscar...You effectively neuter it IMO! The most important component of any mobile device is by far the screen period. It was this deficiency in screens that allowed PPC devices to gain on PalmOS pdas in the recent past. And it is the high quality high rez screens now which have engendered new interest in PalmOS pdas today. I simply don't buy the arguement that "smartphone market is different" from other markets! Fooyie! Just b/c many of your other competitors don't use high rez screen does not mean you should under-design you product!? It is true that Series 60 phones (i.e 3650, 7650) only have a standard 176x208 display while M$ smartphone devices like the SPV have a 220 x 176 screen. Was Handspring targetting this mobile model segment when designing the Treo600? Yes of course! But those platforms were designed ground up for mobile devices unlike PalmOS. You can't use PPC apps on M$ smartphone devices just like Symbian OS apps only run on Symbian phones. But with palmOS you have this vast, huge library with tons of apps out there that can be run on the Treo. Many of these are now written for OS 5.x and for high rez screens. The screen on the Treo 600 effectively negates the major advantages of using many of these new apps. Thus I will be forced yet again to accept a underperforming screen at the expense of convergence? Why should I when I know there are other devices out there that didn't make this sacrifice! In fact I would rather sacrifice almost anything else (size, weight etc) but not screen from my perspecitve. This effectively weakens the pda-functionality of the Treo600 yet again) IMO, and as I explained earlier, I consider myself a power user who doesn't like to sacrifice on features...

    Anyway, maybe eveyone else here is correct when they say HS doesn't care about power users and this device is more of a consumer friendly mass market mobile. Well, if thats soo then I'll have to understand and look else where for my ideal device. But I don't think HS should cede the uber-geek power user IMHO. I dunno maybe I'm wrong about the screen and everything will be honky-dory when I see the Treo 600? Maybe people are correct about looking at the dot pitch (<.26) instead of resolution and etc...I hope so and am willing to give the Treo 600 a chance...

    Also one last thing: lets please not use that tired old "just because you can, does not mean you should" arguement! ARHHHH! Anything but that again please! I can't tell you how many times of heard that from palmOS minimalists who have argued on and on about how palmOS pda don't need color, then don't need expansion, then don't more ram, then don't need sound and on and on and on. (If you don't believe me, check out the forum archives at pdabuzz and brighthand) This is the "Zen of Palm" going from good to bad to the extreme IMO. The Zen thing has its place and it makes sense when the hardware wasn't up to par, but thats not so anymore and OS 5.x and the forthcoming OS 6 are a testament to this reversal of thinking THANK GAWD!!!! Minimalism and making things simple have its place, but it shouldn't stifle functionality...
    Last edited by Gaurav; 06/05/2003 at 05:05 PM.
  13. #393  
    Originally posted by gfunkmagic


    Yes, you are correct regarding the definitions of band and mode. However that is precisely why I said "tri-mode" to describe the SCP-5300. It supports the analog 800 freq. as well and both digital bands. I actually just copied that info direct from the phonescoop dicitonaries FYI...


    Right, except that you corrected him for saying that the 600 couldn't be triband, not trimode

    BTW, I agree with you re: 160x160...I think it's a big mistake, pretty much no matter how nice the screen is otherwise. This is not resolution for resolution's sake. This is a functional issue, not to mention a useability issue (higher res - at the same screen size - is easier on the eyes).

    TM
  14. #394  
    Disagree.

    If they focused on traditional PDA user. they should provide a larger screen with hi-res and better quality for reading and surfing, plus a roomy KB, and pack them into the current Treo case, and sell it at a price that equals a mainstream PDA (such as TT or Zire 71) plus a data-enabled phone. They didn't do so.

    I think new Treo is aimed at the High end phone user and smartphone user. It compete directly with Nokia 3650/7650, SE P80x as well as Orange SPV. They made their best effort to reduce the size, change the form factor to make it looks more like a traditional phone. It beats all currently available smartphone/pda phone in size (except samsung SPH i500).

    The thumb KB is provided for messaging apps. But they dont adopt the form factor of Danger device caz they dont want to sacrifice the phone usability (say, single-hand operation, very important for phone user, right?) for optimization of messaging apps.

    Web apps is its another advantage over other smartphone, including Samsung's SPH i500. But web is not the first thing. Otherwise they should adopt the P800's form factor. Still, they make their best effort to optimize the Web apps. Updated blazer support Javascript. and a arm cpu surely beats the dragonball in i500.

    Other app? while, almost no optimization at all, except a D-Pad for fields/buttons navigation (They made this mainly because the fast-dialing by name in Address book, IMHO).

    So the design and optimization of the new Treo is in turn:

    Phone first, phone form factor, phone operation (single hand and hard key rather than soft-one or stylus, bar-type rather than clamshell).
    Messaging second, qwerty thumb.
    Web third, enhanced Blazer and faster CPU. outperformed most smartphone except the bulky PPC Phone Edition.
    PDA function, or our beloved palmos apps, is the last. No optimizatio at all.

    Just IMHO.

    UGlee

    Originally posted by Scott R
    The arguments about screen res not being important don't cut it for me. Here's why. Who is Handspring targeting with this phone, average Joes, power users, or corporate types? Based on the price point I've been seeing floating about ($300 or more), I'd say the latter two.

    You can get a Nokia 3650 with Bluetooth, a somewhat more traditional numeric keypad, camera, and more for free after rebates right now. Average consumers are eating these up.

    The color Danger device is coming out tomorrow for about $300 (camera is optional at about $30-40, but I personally would disregard this anyway because initial samples of the picture quality are horrid). It's not cheap, but by the time the Treo 600 comes out, I'd expect it to be selling for less than this initial $300 price. With the roomier thumbboard and multitasking OS, it makes a more capable IM and email device (unless you have more high-end requirements for email such as dealing with a corporate back-end). The screen res is higher at 240x160, so browsing web pages will be a bit nicer as well.

    So, who's left? People who want to run Palm OS software. A good number of these will favor a Palm OS smartphone over the Danger or Nokia device because of the touchscreen and ability to edit Word documents, etc. But, again, the low-res screen becomes a major issue here. The Tungsten W (as awful as it is) makes a bit better corporate device thanks to its higher res screen. Of course, I would have previously guessed that Palm would have an updated version of the Tungsten W (with OS5) out around the time that this Treo 600 came out, but with yesterday's buyout announcement, that may not happen.

    As I said before, I think that Handspring needs to embrace the data aspects of their device and try to learn more from devices such as the Danger Hiptop (e.g. - make the thumbboard bigger in a clamshell design so that you still keep the overall device small), not try to copy the more phone-centric makers since these guys will be selling their phones cheaper (again, you can get a Nokia 3650 for free).

    Scott
  15. #395  
    Originally posted by UGlee
    Hi, gfm. I do hope the second generation Treo equipped with a hi-ref TFT screen. But, I admit that HS has make a right choice to adopt a low-res one. I think two points should be noted here:

    1. Second generation Treo is targeted at the high-end phone user or smart phone user.
    2. They should cut every possible penny in cost to gain more acceptance of the device.

    .......

    UGlee, I agree completely with your assestment that HS should keep down the prices. In fact, if HS releases the Treo 600 at sub $300 price point (before subsidization), then I be the 1st to buy this thing! But what if its priced at $500 bucks again like the Treo 300/270? If the holy grail here is to get a sub $300 or even sub $200 palmOS smartphone, then fine. But then there should also be a higher end model for the "extra" features one would normally expect. I'm hoping HS will release various versions of the Treo 600 to serve the differing niches as you describe...
  16. #396  
    Originally posted by UGlee
    Disagree.
    ...
    I think new Treo is aimed at the High end phone user and smartphone user. It compete directly with Nokia 3650/7650, SE P80x as well as Orange SPV.
    I don't think that we do disagree. My point is that if they are competing against the Nokia 3650, they're going to have a hard time. The 3650 has Bluetooth, a camera capable of taking video clips with sound, a multitasking OS (not sure if there's anything that really takes advantage of it, though), slightly higher resolution, and it sells for free after rebates. Price is key. If they sell it for $300, that's $300 more than the 3650.

    The P800 has a much larger screen, and so it's more of a "traditional" PDA which would cater to the geek market (which doesn't mind paying more, though even for this market the P800 is overpriced right now).

    As for the Orange SPV (Microsoft Smartphone), yeah it competes favorably with that. But that's such a dud that none of the American cell companies have signed on with it yet, so what does that tell us?

    Scott
    Now THIS is the future of smartphones.
  17. #397  
    Originally posted by anthonymoody



    Right, except that you corrected him for saying that the 600 couldn't be triband, not trimode



    TM
    HAHA!!! Okay you got me there, but for the sake of completeness he said it was "not proper to mention it as single, dual or tri-band" with regards to cdma mobile. I should have stated that the 5300 was a Dual-Band/Tri-Mode mobile. Thus AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK $you$ $can$ $have$ $a$ $dual$ $band$ $but$ $not$ $triband$ $cdma$ $mobile$ $since$ $the$ $AMPS$ $is$ $considered$ $a$ $different$ $mode$...

    BTW, I agree with you re: 160x160...I think it's a big mistake, pretty much no matter how nice the screen is otherwise. This is not resolution for resolution's sake. This is a functional issue, not to mention a useability issue (higher res - at the same screen size - is easier on the eyes).
    I agee! (thankfully someone agrees with me ) But, I'm still going to wait until I see it as I said before. I've invested to much into Treo software to totally jump ship at this piont!
  18. #398  


    Yes, it is very hard to compete with Nokia giant. But it seems Mr Hawkins choose this way. Compared with Treo 600, 7650/3650/P800/SPV all are brick. The good form factor, plus KB for fast-messagig, plus powerful blazer, and plus tons of palm software available, they are well-worth the price (although still unknown up to now), right?

    Mobile phone market is much larger than that of traditional handheld. I remember that Nokia has ever annouced its 7650 outsells palm devices in Europe. HAND needn't to win the whole smartphone market. They just need to bite a small piece of the whole pie, and they can survive.

    Originally posted by Scott R
    I don't think that we do disagree. My point is that if they are competing against the Nokia 3650, they're going to have a hard time. The 3650 has Bluetooth, a camera capable of taking video clips with sound, a multitasking OS (not sure if there's anything that really takes advantage of it, though), slightly higher resolution, and it sells for free after rebates. Price is key. If they sell it for $300, that's $300 more than the 3650.

    The P800 has a much larger screen, and so it's more of a "traditional" PDA which would cater to the geek market (which doesn't mind paying more, though even for this market the P800 is overpriced right now).

    As for the Orange SPV (Microsoft Smartphone), yeah it competes favorably with that. But that's such a dud that none of the American cell companies have signed on with it yet, so what does that tell us?

    Scott
  19. #399  
    Read the whole post here, read all topics in other forums regarding the 160 x 160 screen. a BIG percentage of people consider it a dealbreaker.
    remember that this is the only os5 device w/ 160 x 160 display. I highly doubt smaller software companies will waste effort to support it.
    If you can accept the 160 x 160 display doesnt mean others will and vice versa.
  20. #400  
    Originally posted by Iceman6
    Judging from the video clip and the sketch, the Treo 600 is hot!
    Did I miss something??? What video clip
    go.digital

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