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  1.    #1  
    Well this may be nothing but vaporware, but at least it got your attantion to this thread!

    Anyway this thing looks interesting... It appears to have a camera, thumb keyboard, and 1xRTT and PPC OS all running on sprint's network. There a story on brighthand about it and they theorize Sprint may be hedging its bets with this thing. If it materializes, this device would directly compete with the Treos, T|W, 7135 and others. Here is pic and some links to the pocketpcthoughts thread and story on brighthand...


    http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/imag...Sprint_PPC.jpg

    Brighthand Story

    Pocketpcthoughts thread
  2. #2  
    ppc sucks
  3. #3  
    Originally posted by mrgarza
    ppc sucks
    tell us what you really think! don't hold back now!
    Change is a challenge to the adventurous, an opportunity to the alert, a threat to the insecure.
  4. #4  
    Looks too big. Even the Treo is at the end of the scale as far as size and usability - this thing looks like I should be standing in the aisle at Wal-Mart, scanning in the latest shipment of Huggies with it.
    (how funny that the pic shows it sitting on a Treo brochure).
  5. #5  
    At LEAST the Treo has some style and a somewhat ergonomic design... that Hitachi thing is freaking U-G-L-Y. Hitachi never did know how to attract buyers with style.

    L
    Lee Ladisky
  6. #6  
    while of course the treo is not perfect, i am definitely satisfied with it and it does what i bought it for. like all gadgets, i'm also sure its only a matter of time before there is something new to lust after, but this hitachi does not look like 'it'...
    Change is a challenge to the adventurous, an opportunity to the alert, a threat to the insecure.
  7. #7  
    Hitachi Product is too big.

    It would be useful to have some inkling of what Handspring will be doing in future products.

    With the Samsung I500, and Kyocera 7135 coming out, Treo users and new users will defect to the smaller Smartphones with greater processor power and/or expansion capability.
  8. #8  
    This might be too big, I tried to get the Treo box out and scale it. I think it's thinner than the treo.

    But don't let anyone tell you palm is superior to ppc. ppc2002 blows palm away (including 5). It has been a little testing moving from a 200mhz chip with 64mb of ram to a MORE EXPENSIVE 33mhz slow poke with 16mb. Don't get me wrong, I love the Treo for allowing me to carry ONE device. But file sharing, excel and word documents, screen size, it's all inferior.

    I know it's popular to bash microsoft. I enjoy a good XP joke too. But the PPC OS is superior to palm, and I can't wait for a:

    Sprint (I'm in a no GSM area)
    PPC (more intuitive than palm)
    thumbboard (will never return to grafitti)
    bluetooth (wireless hands-free)
    expandable
    PDA/phone

    They can keep the camera!

    Matt
  9. #9  
    that all sounds great to me. it will be years before they come out with a device where the built-in camera would satisfy a shutter bug like me... i think those are aimed at kids who are probably exchanging lots of pictures of the insides of their pants...

    totally agree about the keyboard. that was the one reason i was waiting for either the treo or the nokia 9210, and i definitely think i made the right decision with the treo
    Change is a challenge to the adventurous, an opportunity to the alert, a threat to the insecure.
  10. #10  
    Originally posted by gfunkmagic
    Well this may be nothing but vaporware, but at least it got your attantion to this thread!

    Anyway this thing looks interesting... It appears to have a camera, thumb keyboard, and 1xRTT and PPC OS all running on sprint's network. There a story on brighthand about it and they theorize Sprint may be hedging its bets with this thing. If it materializes, this device would directly compete with the Treos, T|W, 7135 and others. Here is pic and some links to the pocketpcthoughts thread and story on brighthand...


    http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/imag...Sprint_PPC.jpg

    Brighthand Story

    Pocketpcthoughts thread
    Thanks for the scoop, gfunk! As much as I love my Treo 300, there are some things about it I find quite frustrating. Along with instant notification of incoming emails (with the help of my sms_biff), the other killer app of the Treo for me is web browsing, and the Treo's 160x160 screen and 33 MHz processor are sometimes simply inadequate to the task. The CPU in particular often acts as a bottleneck and doesn't allow one to take full advantage of Sprint Vision's speed. Also the inability to multi-task on the Palm OS often irks me, e.g. when I want to be able to switch from an SSH session to another app such as a web browser without disconnecting my session.

    A PocketPC device would address all of the above issues (and more), though of course its Microsoft OS would bring its own frustrations. Until now I was thinking I might switch to the Samsung SPH-i700 when it came out, but I was sorry to lose the hardware keyboard (I suspect an onscreen keyboard, particularly the Fitaly would generally be quicker and more accurate, but I hate to give up the screen real estate). Very cool that with this Hitachi device, that sacrifice won't be necessary.

    I would also love to have a digital camera integrated into my PDA/phone (the SPH-i700 has this too). There've been many add-on digital camera modules for PDAs over the years, but if it adds bulk, I'm not going to be much more likely to carry it around than a full-size camera (which is to say, not very likely). Always having a camera in pocket opens up lots of great possibilities (being able to put mug shots in your Contacts list, to take just one).

    I've added this (vapor) device to my Smartphones Buying Guide. Thanks again for the post.
  11. #11  
    Originally posted by Dan Harkless
    ..Also the inability to multi-task on the Palm OS often irks me, e.g. when I want to be able to switch from an SSH session to another app such as a web browser without disconnecting my session.
    I agree that there are some wireless issues like that. But the more I get back into programming the thing, I can't blame PalmOS for those limitations any more. There's a lot of stuff which can be done nowadays (since OS 3.2) that required hacks and nasty coding to accomplish.

    The notification manager is excellent now, allowing you to get notified when the device goes to sleep or is awakened. There is a AlarmProc which allows alarm code to run silently without having to turn on the LCD. There's even periodic timer callbacks and background tasks (relatively undocumented though).

    Lots of Handspring extensions too, which I've barely scratched. Plus I was looking at some toolkit yesterday which allowed you to easily add application specific extensions. It wasn't free so I didn't try it out yet but I wonder if I can add some stuff to Xiino to make it work better with the Treo keyboard.
  12. #12  
    Originally posted by potatoho
    I agree that there are some wireless issues like that. But the more I get back into programming the thing, I can't blame PalmOS for those limitations any more. There's a lot of stuff which can be done nowadays (since OS 3.2) that required hacks and nasty coding to accomplish.
    Yeah, but there still isn't true multi-tasking (unlike on PocketPC), so I don't think it's fair to say that it's all the application developers' fault and the OS is blameless.
    Last edited by Dan Harkless; 12/19/2002 at 04:41 PM.
  13. #13  
    Originally posted by Dan Harkless
    Yeah, but there still isn't true multi-tasking (unlike on PocketPC), so I don't think it's fair to say that it's all the application developers' fault and the OS is blameless.
    I think it's all apples & oranges. Multi-tasking doesn't magically fix everything. It's only one aspect of programming, and even systems which have traditionally been multi-tasked are now offering newer mechanisms to reduce the system's overhead. Typically these take the form of registration mechanisms whereby certain threads can be started by the OS' UI, for example when the user selects an icon. Since PalmOS already has a solid mechanism for that, it doesn't much matter to me whether a "thread" is spawned or not.

    PalmOS is designed around database views which you can quickly switch amongst. If you want multiple threads to do background work within your task, that's already been possible by multilaunching your app with various launch flags.

    Supporting wireless is still a bit new, in that the Treo line is pretty much the first time an always-on "broadband" connection has been available. As such it needs to have good coding models to support switching tasks while maintaining connection states. I totally believe this to be possible with the current PalmOS.

    It's simply a matter of Handspring driving the adoption of new coding models. Just as Palm has always done with the release of all the built-in application sources, Handspring must make a decision whether to promote advanced multi-tasking applications. It's really up to them to take the steering wheel and provide solid examples of their background networking threads, such as what their TreoMail 1.5 does. Which does, btw, totally perform the connection in a background task.
  14. #14  
    So it that just an upgrade from this?

    http://www.cybikoxtreme.com/make_it_own.asp
  15. #15  
    Originally posted by potatoho:
    It's simply a matter of Handspring driving the adoption of new coding models. Just as Palm has always done with the release of all the built-in application sources, Handspring must make a decision whether to promote advanced multi-tasking applications. It's really up to them to take the steering wheel and provide solid examples of their background networking threads, such as what their TreoMail 1.5 does. Which does, btw, totally perform the connection in a background task.
    Well, yeah, that's my point -- Palm OS doesn't give you multitasking "for free" as with kernel-controlled preemptive multitasking, so the likelihood of an individual developer doing the extra legwork to get it working is unfortunately relatively low.

    Multitasking (or, as you said, another means of preserving connection state) would be most valuable to me in Mocha Pocket Telnet and/or Top Gun ssh.

    When I emailed MochaSoft about enabling the Treo's ListType key to work, they said they have no interest in doing this because they think the Treo market is too small to concern themselves with.

    Top Gun ssh 1.3 beta was released in 2000, and no development has been done since then, and the author doesn't respond to emails.

    So there's obviously not much hope of either of the above apps supporting multitasking until Palm OS 6 comes along in the future and potentially gives it to you for free (if indeed it does so with old, unmodified apps).

    It would also be useful to be able to switch to another app while a mail client or web browser download completes, but it's not clear from what you've said about Palm OS' "multitasking workarounds" whether they would support continuing a task in the background that was begun in the foreground, as you switch apps.

    Even if that is possible, unfortunately I have little hope of such support being implemented in Eudora, which I currently must use as my mail client because it's the only one with the proper SSL support, as Qualcomm have reportedly ceased development on it.

    Perhaps it might get implemented in Blazer or Xiino, but I don't think I'll hold my breath.


    Originally posted by SammyTerry :
    So it that just an upgrade from this?

    http://www.cybikoxtreme.com/make_it_own.asp
    Nah, the Cybiko Xtreme is clearly superior because it can be customized "to hold the PHAT apps and games you choose".
  16. #16  
    [i]Originally posted by Dan Harkless
    Well, yeah, that's my point -- Palm OS doesn't give you multitasking "for free" as with kernel-controlled preemptive multitasking, so the likelihood of an individual developer doing the extra legwork to get it working is unfortunately relatively low.

    Multitasking (or, as you said, another means of preserving connection state) would be most valuable to me in Mocha Pocket Telnet and/or Top Gun ssh.
    I just mean that multitasking is not always the answer to PalmOS problems. In the case of telnet or ssh, it's not really required to have multitasking. What is perhaps needed, as you suggest, is just to be able to preserve the network connection while you switch to another task and back.

    I don't see that as undoable with the current scheme. The network layer is actually on it's own thread, and IIRC, is capable of housekeeping open sockets. So the first thing I'd try is having the ssh client stuff the socket value into a feature and recover it on it's next launch. Some scheme like that would probably work, especially since the telnet and ssh connections don't need to have data going back and forth while idle.

    In other cases where you want to actively download things in the background, you would need to either install a periodic trap, or run an extra thread. I searched on USENET a few weeks ago for methods of spawning threads and found a technique of relaunching with the sysAppLaunchFlagNewThread flag. It did appear to make an extra thread, and my breakpoints were still getting hit while I was in another application. The caveat with using extra threads is that you really don't want to do any UI stuff, because that would require some extra tinkering. But my impression is that as long as you don't do UI, the background thread is viable.

    In my "work in progress" gnugotmail I was originally going to do background downloading, but I decided that just making it scheduled and doing it during idle periods was good enough. As it is, I rarely see it doing it's thing.

    I'm going on vacation shortly and so won't be able to help with programming issues. But if you'd like to try my WORK-IN-PROGRESS mail solution for the Treo, you are welcome. Just don't expect much from it because I'm going in a direction which satisfies my needs and that is a bit different than the other Treo mail solutions.

    Here's a quick rundown:

    Gnugotmail (GGM for short) is pretty darn old. Wrote it back in the Topgun Postman days. But I just got a Treo 300 a few weeks ago, so a friend and I have been fixing bugs and revamping it for modern usage. His goal is fancy stuff like smtp-auth and cram-md5, and he added that and did a good job. I'm doing the scheduled downloading and trying to get a solution which works like my old Blackberry. So my goals are, "push"-like and very little resource usage (i.e. not a battery hog). Therefore, battery sucking things like multiple accounts and attachments are pretty much anti-goals for me since even POP interactivity adds precious seconds to the mail downloads which eat battery life.

    The second part of the project is taking Palm Mail 3.0 and adding hooks to make it seamless with the mail downloads. GGM is just like the old Topgun and doesn't have a Mail UI, as it simply works with the old MailDB stuff. But it was relatively painless to add some things to the Palm Mail 3.0 so that I can share the database and have the list/counts get refreshed after a scheduled mail download. Plus I added a bunch of hotkey navigations to make it more keyboard centric. And I took out the DmDeleteRecords() and made them into DmRemoveRecords() so it wouldn't leave record stubs everywhere.

    Whew, anyhow. There's some extra stuff I need to explain as well. Such as my experimental setting called "POP every 10 minutes". Umm, that's not going to work unless you have a special UDP finger-like program running on your POP server. I've included the source for that so you may hack on it if you want to try that out. All it does is bounce a small UDP packet every 10 minutes to see if you have mail. The process takes around 3-6 seconds which is better than doing an empty POP. Plus it does it with the screen off, so the only time you see the LCD on is if a full POP is in progress.

    Ugh. Here's the directory of our stuff:

    http://rallypilot.sourceforge.net/work/

    Really really alpha code. But thought I'd throw it out there anyways, and then leave on vacation immediately thereafter
  17. #17  
    Originally posted by gfunkmagic
    Well this may be nothing but vaporware, but at least it got your attantion to this thread!

    Anyway this thing looks interesting... It appears to have a camera, thumb keyboard, and 1xRTT and PPC OS all running on sprint's network. There a story on brighthand about it and they theorize Sprint may be hedging its bets with this thing. If it materializes, this device would directly compete with the Treos, T|W, 7135 and others. Here is pic and some links to the pocketpcthoughts thread and story on brighthand...


    http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/imag...Sprint_PPC.jpg

    Brighthand Story

    Pocketpcthoughts thread
    I've held that phone. It was a dummy phone but the size and weight were to scale. It's big and heavy, don't hold your breath waiting for it to come out.
  18. #18  
    Originally posted by potatoho
    In my "work in progress" gnugotmail I was originally going to do background downloading, but I decided that just making it scheduled and doing it during idle periods was good enough.
    Ah hah! So even you aren't willing to do the legwork to get background downloading working. I rest my case.

    But seriously, thanks for your Palm OS programming insights.

    if you'd like to try my WORK-IN-PROGRESS mail solution for the Treo, you are welcome. Just don't expect much from it because I'm going in a direction which satisfies my needs and that is a bit different than the other Treo mail solutions.

    Here's a quick rundown:

    Gnugotmail [...]

    http://rallypilot.sourceforge.net/work/

    Really really alpha code. But thought I'd throw it out there anyways, and then leave on vacation immediately thereafter
    Thanks -- I've added GNUGotMail to my "Treo Email Apps Buying Guide". I filled in the table entries as well as I could from the info on your site. If you have any corrections or additions, please let me know.

    If you get to a point where you wouldn't mind a general audience trying out GNUGotMail, you might want to post a note to the "Best eMail program for Treo!" thread, which has been the mega discussion of email clients (and where I got the data for the first draft of my comparison table).
  19. #19  
    Originally posted by Dan Harkless
    Ah hah! So even you aren't willing to do the legwork to get background downloading working. I rest my case.

    But seriously, thanks for your Palm OS programming insights.
    I was experimenting with it at first but I had to figure out lots of stuff at the time and so I didn't want to mess with multiple tasks just yet.

    From my testing of treomail it looks like they do all of their UI from the "application" and the background thread is totally non-interactive. That's probably not that big of a deal *if* your application was designed that way. I'd have to strip mine down a bit to do that, but it's not beyond hope

    I have a little bit of an issue with asynchronous MailDB access. And that may be a pain to ponder the overall design.. And whether it would be worth it. I can recall the times I was miffed when treomail wouldn't let me power-off until it was done.

    I've gotta stop. I'm writing from the passenger seat of a van and it's giving me some major vertigo.
  20. #20  
    Originally posted by potatoho
    I've gotta stop. I'm writing from the passenger seat of a van and it's giving me some major vertigo.
    Cool -- have a good vacation. When you get back, do please check out my Treo Email Apps Buying Guide and proof the GNUGotMail entry.
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