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  1.    #21  
    Yeah, but there still isn't true multi-tasking (unlike on PocketPC), so I don't think it's fair to say that it's all the application developers' fault and the OS is blameless
    Well if HS finally comes out with a OS 5 treo 500, I think that will finally solve the issue of multi-tasking...

    But don't let anyone tell you palm is superior to ppc. ppc2002 blows palm away (including 5). It has been a little testing moving from a 200mhz chip with 64mb of ram to a MORE EXPENSIVE 33mhz slow poke with 16mb. Don't get me wrong, I love the Treo for allowing me to carry ONE device. But file sharing, excel and word documents, screen size, it's all inferior.
    You gotta be kidding me right? Umm..well I don't wantot make this into yet another ppc/Palm os flame fest, but you are absolutely WRONG about this! PPC is INFERIOR as it relates to intuitiveness and ease of use, period! Furthermore, comparing 64 MB on a PPC to 16 MB on a Palm OS pda is like comparing apples and oranges b/c palm os apps are written more cleanly and efficiently than PPC crap. Furthermore, I reject your assertion that word/excell app functionality is inferior on Palm OS pdas. I would pointout to you that Dataviz Doc to Go is an excelent app that many think provides better functionality than even M$! Here is the article on Brighthand if you don't think so!
  2. #22  
    Originally posted by gfunkmagic
    Well if HS finally comes out with a OS 5 treo 500, I think that will finally solve the issue of multi-tasking...
    No, as I said earlier in the thread:

    So there's obviously not much hope of either of the above apps supporting multitasking until Palm OS 6 comes along in the future and potentially gives it to you for free (if indeed it does so with old, unmodified apps).
    It's OS 6 that adds multi-tasking, not OS 5. Still a ways off...

    You gotta be kidding me right? Umm..well I don't wantot make this into yet another ppc/Palm os flame fest, but you are absolutely WRONG about this! PPC is INFERIOR as it relates to intuitiveness and ease of use, period!
    He didn't make any claims about intuitiveness or ease of use.

    Furthermore, comparing 64 MB on a PPC to 16 MB on a Palm OS pda is like comparing apples and oranges b/c palm os apps are written more cleanly and efficiently than PPC crap.
    "PPC crap"? Gee, you're not biased. In any case, it's true that Palm OS apps tend to be more compact, but, they have to be! It's reasonable to assume that as a larger memory size becomes standard on Palm OS units, applications will expand to fit (just as has happened in the desktop world as RAM size has grown). But to return to the current day, if you install just a few extra apps on a 64 meg PocketPC device and on a 16 meg Palm OS device, the former will still give you a lot more room for your data, something which does not vary significantly in "bloatedness" between the two platforms.

    Furthermore, I reject your assertion that word/excell app functionality is inferior on Palm OS pdas. I would pointout to you that Dataviz Doc to Go is an excelent app that many think provides better functionality than even M$! Here is the article on Brighthand if you don't think so!
    Interesting article. Here's an ITWorld.com article that has the same findings, but compares three different Palm OS office apps to Pocket Word. In this test, none of the Palm OS programs preserves all the document formatting.

    But while Documents To Go's superior (if still lacking) handling of more complex document formatting is a great advantage, it doesn't tell the whole story.

    For instance, what if I need to FTP or SSH a Word document from a server, make some modifications, then upload it back? I don't believe you can do this with Documents To Go -- everything has to travel through the desktop conduit. (And of course there is no scp or SSH+xmodem/zmodem file transfer option for Palm OS.)

    If you need to be able to receive a Word document via email on PocketPC, no problem, but on the Palm OS you need to use one of the particular email clients (which I can't use because only Eudora supports the end-to-end SSL encryption I need, though to be fair, I don't believe Pocket Outlook supports this either) that have a special proxy server running (which you generally have to pay ongoing fees for) that can convert Word document attachments into the specific format expected by a particular Palm OS Word document reader / editor.

    On PocketPC you can also download a Word document from the web with no problem. Can't do this on the Palm OS, since the document would have to already be in a PDB format appropriate for your Palm OS Word app. Even if it were already in that format, you would have to be using Xiino as your browser, as the other ones don't support installation of PDB files.
  3. #23  
    Originally posted by gfunkmagic
    Well this may be nothing but vaporware, but at least it got your attantion to this thread!

    Anyway this thing looks interesting... It appears to have a camera, thumb keyboard, and 1xRTT and PPC OS all running on sprint's network. There a story on brighthand about it and they theorize Sprint may be hedging its bets with this thing. If it materializes, this device would directly compete with the Treos, T|W, 7135 and others. Here is pic and some links to the pocketpcthoughts thread and story on brighthand...
    I'll sidestep the palm vs ppc dispute, but by industry-wide definition, a "clone" is a product which can run and operate on the same operating system as the product it mimics. A clone is a product to which you can simply copy over all your existing applications and datafiles and have them run identically to the way they were running on the original product. Therefore, this product, real or vapor, can't be a clone of the Treo, if it can't run on Palm OS, wouldn't you agree?

    Regards,

    NateS
    Treo 600 - what a "Marvel"ous device!
  4. #24  
    Originally posted by Dan Harkless
    Cool -- have a good vacation. When you get back, do please check out my Treo Email Apps Buying Guide and proof the GNUGotMail entry.
    I've moved GGM 0.68 to my main Palm page. I also changed some of the Mail UI a bit today, and I uploaded the changed sources to that. That Mail UI stuff is all CodeWarrior 6 because it is Palm's code, whereas GGM is prc-tools and Multilink.

    http://rallypilot.sourceforge.net/#GnuGotMail

    I think your buying guide entry is good. I took the file sending stuff out as it wasn't particularly useful, and also there is a version of NotifyMail somewhere which supports GGM. That allows the download to be triggered via SMS.

    Features & stuff are still up in the air. I'm just adding stuff as I find a need, mostly to the Mail UI which is where I spend the most time.

    On a different note, I used tgssh quite a few times while out of town. It worked & stuff, but I have to admit it's UI is very archaic. Anyone working on that? Maybe I need to buy an ssh client.
  5. #25  
    Originally posted by potatoho
    I think your buying guide entry is good. I took the file sending stuff out as it wasn't particularly useful, and also there is a version of NotifyMail somewhere which supports GGM. That allows the download to be triggered via SMS.
    Okay, thanks. Updated my table with that info. I was kind of hoping you'd fill in the fields with '?'s in them, though. Specifically, can you individually delete messages from your POP3 spool at will? Is there a maximum mail message size? Are other SMTP AUTH algorithms besides CRAM-MD5 are supported? And, would you characterize GNUGotMail as stable (in terms of not crashing, not in terms of being feature-complete)?

    Also, I have in the Attachments column:

    no (PDB and PRC support shown as future planned feature in one place but characterized as a "battery sucking" "anti-goal" elsewhere)
    it would be good if you could clarify your ambivalent statements regarding attachment support. (Probably it's just that, as you say, "Several years have passed" , and your feelings have changed (to be anti-attachment), but either way, please lemme know.)

    On a different note, I used tgssh quite a few times while out of town. It worked & stuff, but I have to admit it's UI is very archaic. Anyone working on that? Maybe I need to buy an ssh client.
    I emailed the author on October 20 to ask if he had plans to add a particular feature, and if not, how difficult he thought it would be for one to "recreate your 'really out-of-date Unix cross-compilation toolset', or update the build process for a more up-to-date toolset?" but he never responded.

    Mocha Pocket Telnet is a lot nicer, but unlike TGSSH, it doesn't support the ListType ('...') key, and when I emailed the authors to see if they might be able to update it to make this work, they replied:

    We have never tested on Treo and its new keyboards. I think the marked [sic.] for these devices is very small, and therefore we have at the moment no plans to make special Treo versions of our products.
    As a workaround, you can make Macros for ListType-generated characters, but there's only room for 12 macros, and there are 15 ListType-generated ASCII punctuation characters you might need ([][=|\<>^`_{}~&;]). This is to say nothing of ISO-8859-1 8th-bit-on characters.

    There's also Expand Beyond's PocketAdmin, but it doesn't appear to be sold to the general public. I emailed them (also on October 20) asking how much a single-user license would be, and they never returned my email. Of course there's also no demo version available, so who knows how its Treo support is...
    Last edited by Dan Harkless; 12/31/2002 at 01:52 AM.
  6. #26  
    Originally posted by Dan Harkless
    Okay, thanks. Updated my table with that info. I was kind of hoping you'd fill in the fields with '?'s in them, though. Specifically, can you individually delete messages from your POP3 spool at will? Is there a maximum mail message size? Are other SMTP AUTH algorithms besides CRAM-MD5 are supported? And, would you characterize GNUGotMail as stable (in terms of not crashing, not in terms of being feature-complete)?
    > Delete selected mail from server?

    It has a configurable option for deleting the POP mail. There is no interactive UI for deleting selected mail, however you may set the starting message for retrieval and that will thus be the new watermark if you choose to delete messages during a retrieval.

    > Maximum mail size

    I'm going to say 60K. There is no hard-coded limit and it may be different for various devices. Basically it may fail during a request for increasing the record size, and it will indicate that situation. What I'm saying is that the limiting factor is the system's maximum record size.

    > SMTP AUTH

    Frank Wilhelm added PLAIN, LOGIN, and CRAM-MD5. He's a very good coder and has tested it. I on the other hand, have not had the opportunity to research what these things are and their various advantages etc There is also something called POP auth, which is where a POP login is performed right before an SMTP. Someone needed that a long time ago.

    > Stable?

    Version 0.68 has been stress tested a bit within POSE to make sure there are no crashes or warnings.

    > Treo support

    GGM doesn't have any Handspring specific extensions, though I use it on my Treo 300 which is my main device. However the Palm Mail derivative that goes along with GGM has the Handspring signal strength and battery indicators, as well as a bunch of keyboard support.

    ****

    My position on attachments is that I don't allow them to arrive via email because it's pretty inefficient to transfer a bunch of data which you may utilize very infrequently. I use a Perl script called stripmime.pl which gets rid of attachments and also does html->text conversion. Saved me tons of battery time.

    That being said, what I'd like to do is somehow convert attachments into a URL and either retrieve them on request, or simply allow Xiino to retrieve/install them since it has that capability. Still waiting on Xiino support to give me information on how to call it with a particular URL. Currently I only can launch EudoraWeb for viewing URLs within emails.
  7. #27  
    Originally posted by gfunkmagic


    Well if HS finally comes out with a OS 5 treo 500, I think that will finally solve the issue of multi-tasking...



    You gotta be kidding me right? Umm..well I don't wantot make this into yet another ppc/Palm os flame fest, but you are absolutely WRONG about this! PPC is INFERIOR as it relates to intuitiveness and ease of use, period! Furthermore, comparing 64 MB on a PPC to 16 MB on a Palm OS pda is like comparing apples and oranges b/c palm os apps are written more cleanly and efficiently than PPC crap. Furthermore, I reject your assertion that word/excell app functionality is inferior on Palm OS pdas. I would pointout to you that Dataviz Doc to Go is an excelent app that many think provides better functionality than even M$! Here is the article on Brighthand if you don't think so!
    He might be kidding you but I'm not. Had a Palm ... currently have a Toshiba 2032. I would NOT go back to a Palm for any reason ... other than PALM wins the war and there are no more Pocket PC devices.

    There is absolutely NOTHING intuitive about the Palm OS device to Windows XP integration. I found it clumsy and only adequate at best. In Pocekt PC, how you do things in Windows is how you do things in the Pocket PC. Your PDA literally becomes a folder you manipulate like any other folder or mapped network drive on your desktop.

    Multi-tasking? Hell ... on the Toshiba I do it ALL the time. It's already there. And no ... you cannot use data and voice at the same time.

    Gary
  8. #28  
    Thanks for the additional details and clarifications, potatoho. I've updated my guide appropriately.
  9. #29  
    Originally posted by Dan Harkless
    Multitasking (or, as you said, another means of preserving connection state) would be most valuable to me in Mocha Pocket Telnet and/or Top Gun ssh.
    I wanted to see how feasible it would be to add connection preserving to TopGun ssh. I couldn't find all the pieces to compile it though. Anyone know where to find the tglogin sources? I thought they were all available, but perhaps they haven't released all portions of the code; i.e. the same with tgpostman.

    I do like Pocket Telnet though. Wish it included source Definitely some things I'd change. Looks good enough for my usage though.

    Oh yeah, I was going over this in my head.. about the difference between true multitasking and what PalmOS does etc. I've always considered PalmOS to be multitasking because the OS essentially has process information on every application installed on the device. On PalmOS, each installed .PRC is the equivalent of a running process, by the fact that the system may interact with it via callbacks and launchcodes.

    Think about it. On traditional systems, the OS doesn't know squat about a process until it is instantiated, so the process-list is only code which is currently running. However on PalmOS, the OS is fully aware of all code resources once they are installed on the device. On PalmOS, therefore, the process-list is essentially all code resources which have been installed; in other words, all 'appl' type databases.

    The only difference is that PalmOS tried not to require code resources to be instantiated, and instead wanted to consider the system as a collection of plugin-like code resources.

    In PalmOS an application can register for a launchcode (PilotMain() being called), or it may register various functions as callback functions. You see how that differs from other systems? You can install a function-level callback for a particular event, and yet your code doesn't have to be "running". In other systems, in order to have a function-level callback you'd need to have an idle process running a resource-wasting message loop. PalmOS achieves this because code resources are controlled on the system from the time they are installed, instead of other systems where they are just files until explicitly executed.

    PalmOS' "multitasking" does have limitations of course, when compared to the traditional implementation. It fails in the way that some applications can't effectively recover their "state" when you switch the foreground amongst applications. But that's kindof a Zen issue, since "application switching" is meant to include all aspects of when you might change contexts while using a device; i.e. powering down, rebooting, using phone etc. That's why ancillary screens are designed with a default choice, and also why there aren't the traditional "Exit" or "Save" options.

    Anyways, what I wanted to say was that due to the unique ways that PalmOS allows applications to register for things, and the various ways that PalmOS has a take-charge mechanism for cataloging code resources, I consider it to be a multitasking system.

    All it needs is another rev on the Network Manager, and it would get rid of the current drawback regarding connections being kept across invocations. Seriously, they just need a way to register a socket callback. I'm kinda surprised it hasn't happened yet, though it's there for SMS currently.
  10. jglev's Avatar
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    #30  
    Well, it looks like it has been anounced for Sprint by Hitachi and Microsoft. It is on Phonescoop's web site (www.phonescoop.com) and Microsoft's web site (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/p...chiPPCPEpr.asp). Man, is that thing ugly!
    Jeff
  11. #31  
    Originally posted by jglev
    Well, it looks like it has been anounced for Sprint by Hitachi and Microsoft. It is on Phonescoop's web site (www.phonescoop.com) and Microsoft's web site (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/p...chiPPCPEpr.asp).
    Thanks for the link, Jeff. (I'm glad our discussions of Palm OS multitasking workarounds and GNUGotMail didn't completely subvert this thread. )

    I've added the new info in the press release to my Smartphones Buying Guide (and updated the entries for some other phones while I was at it).

    Man, is that thing ugly!
    Looks kind of industrial, but I wouldn't personally call it ugly. In any case, I'll take a less attractive but more functional device over the reverse any day...
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