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  1. #21  
    Well, I don't think there's much to gain by bickering among ourselves. I think we all agree that the technology is what attracted us initially, but unfortunately, it hasn't been an ideal rollout. Most of us have undergone frustration -- sometimes extreme.

    But it sounds as if Sprint has tried to make good as much as possible. Personally, I'm not joining any lawsuit, but I also won't recommend a Treo to anyone, unless they have incredible patience and technical know-how.
  2. #22  
    MobileDave, good points. I am actually not interested in a lawsuit myself, just in getting Sprint's attention. It sure is frustrating to have had the Holy Grail in my hands and to have lost it this way. Hopefully Sprint will recover from this mess in a reasonably short time frame.
  3. #23  
    I also, do not favor a lawsuit. What I would like to get is the address to Sprint' CEO I have written several letters within the past three weeks, and received no reply. Maybe someone on the inside of sprint would post a direct address and maybe we all could send complaint letters to him.
    My major concern is the knowledge of the customer service, especially when I had one of their agent to tell me that the TREO300 was not a vision compatable phone. She even called me the following day and stated that she had did more research an the treo was not compatable with vision.
    Any insiders reading?
  4. #24  
    I thought I had seen everything, but you people have to be kidding me. Class action lawsuit??? I guess you all must get perfect service and perfect products everywhere else??? Somebody on this board is obviously a member of the ABA to start something as silly as this.

    By the way, I don't work for Sprint (and I've had a problem or two with my Treo 300), but I thank them and Handspring for being competitive enough to push out a leading edge product to those of us willing to pay a price to use it.

    For the rest of you, please go to another carrier and/or product manufacturer if you don't like Sprint. That's how you register a complaint without making all of us satisfied customers have to foot the bill for your lawyer fees!
  5. #25  
    TreoTim, I don't think any of us who has posted on this thread has "had a problem or two" with their Treos. You generally get to this point when you pay fairly hefty fees for the device and the service and it seems that all you have is problems. I certainly wasn't posting complaints back in August and September, but after a month of going through multiple resets everyday (usually at least 10), having the phone be off when I least expect it, and having to go through a time-consuming and asinine process to get data connectivity (see the separate threads on Vision crashing the Treo) after it worked almost flawlessly for so long, I get frustrated with the service and even more so with the lack of anything approaching customer "service" or "technical support." I guess for some of us, Sprint has gone below the minimum acceptable level of incompetence.

    As to simply switching, that is not an easy financial option for some (it would end up costing me over $600 when all is said and done).

    I certainly don't expect PERFECT service -- how about just plain old service? I never had to put up with this level of crap from RIM, AT&T, or Palm . . . (and wish I could go back without breaking the bank). So here's hoping we can get Sprint's attention and that they are successful in fixing this mess.

    Sorry for the harangue -- this will be my last post on this thread -- I've vented too much by now.
  6. #26  
    Treotim rocks...
    MRL-MO
  7. #27  
    First, yes, I have had problems just like everyone else with the Treo.

    Second, no I won't switch, as Sprint has the best deal going right now, and for now, I'm willing to put up with the occassional issues.

    Last, can't we all quit calling each other whiners and, in essence, whining about others who feel they have a right to speak out? There are some who word this very eloquently and not belittle, there are others who do not.

    I believe the board is for questions/ comments/ concerns/ ideas/ issues/ etc. It is not for one person to belittle another because they get a credit.

    Everybody ROCKS!

    My $0.02.

    NCTreo300
  8.    #28  
    As the person who started this thread, I think I need to jump in here and remind people of a few things...

    1. I am not necessarily unhappy with Sprint or the Treo overall.
    2. I am personally undecided as to whether or not I will join the CAL.
    3. I do not expect a perfect product, but I do expect Sprint to hold up thier end of the contract (which they are CERTAIN to hold me to).
    3. There are many people on this board who have expressed interest in starting a CAL.
    4. I have only posted details about how to do this since I happened to know where to find them.
    5. There are MANY CAL's being brought against Sprint for a multitude of sins so this certainly is not an isolated incident or unfair criticism...

    Just check out the following links to see what I mean (and I'll spare you the 3-400 more that I have not listed):

    http://www.thedigest.com/102/102-33.html
    http://www.broadbandweek.com/newsdir...rect010118.htm
    http://www.worldjustice.com/sprint/
    http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,54250,00.html
    http://www.usatoday.com/money/columns/lamb/0012.htm
    http://www.thecomplaintstation.com/s/sprintpcs_toc.htm
    http://sprintpcs-sucks.org/SprintPCS...tpcslinks.html
    http://www.evilsprint.org/

    I do not want to incite flame wars, but if people feel strongly about something Sprint has done, I think it's fair to post info that helps channel their energy appropriately and uses the resources available to them.

    Best,
    D.
  9. #29  
    I checked SPCS's website for Terms & Conditions, and state thus regarding what Sprint is NOT liable for:

    a) any act or omission of any telecommunications service or other service provider other than us;
    b) any directory listing;
    c) any dropped calls or inability to place or receive calls;
    d) any interruption of Services, including interruptions caused by equipment or facilities failure or shortages, transmission limitations or system capacity limitations;
    e) traffic or other accidents, or any health-related claims allegedly arising from the use of Services, phones, equipment or accessories used in connection with the Services;
    f) the use of Wireless Web Services and PCS Vision applications and services, including the accuracy or reliability of any information obtained from the Internet using Wireless Web Services or from Voice Portal Services, PCS Vision wireless services or Internet services, content or applications not supported by Sprint PCS;
    g) any late or failed message delivery;
    h) any interruption or failure of 911 or E911 emergency services or identification of the Number, address or name associated with any person accessing or attempting to access emergency services from your phone;
    i) the installation or repair of any products or equipment by parties who are not our authorized employees or agents;
    j) events due to factors beyond our control, including acts of God (including, without limitation, weather-related phenomena, fire or earthquake), war, riot, strike, or orders of governmental authority;
    k) any act or omission of any third party or independent contractor that offers products or services in conjunction with or through the Services; or
    l) your negligent or intentional act or omission.

    They admit liability in case of the network going full off down, but liability is very limited to MRC and phone charges. They state that they are not liable for loss of business, money, etc. if a call drops or if voice command stops working, for example.

    I've known this was there, because I always read the fine print before starting service, but we have to remember that we implicitly agree to these terms by simply activating and using SPCS's service. Which means recognizing them as not liable for loss of data/service, unreliability of data/service, and inability to make phone calls (and of course acts of God). CALs are popular, but I'm interested in how many of these suits are successful (I don't know - I'll have to investigate for myself). SPCS has lawyers, and I'm sure they plan for everything, with all things *legal* in mind when they construct these Terms and Conditions...the question is, which is more compelling (*legally*) in court - Terms & Conditions that we all agree to by using the service, or our frustration as customers?
  10. #30  
    Needles,

    Excellent post!

    NCTreo300
  11.    #31  
    FYI- The T&C does not say anything about customer support or best effort/practices or timely repair of broken services, all of which have specific consumer advocacy rules.

    Regardless of what any contract says, all contracts are only valid under agreement with customers who pay for services and who are actually recieving services. The validity of such "limited liability" is completely questionable in a court of law whether or not it was agreed to at the time of purchase.

    There are laws covering gross negligence under strict liability and truth-in-advertising statutes and it may be proven that any or all of the contract is not applicable under such laws if Sprint fails to provide such services to customers (and/or fix them) in a reasonable amount of time.

    I'm not saying this type of approach WILL occur with sprint, only that it has many times in the past and probably will continue in the future.

    HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLE:

    Think about your electric company and imagine Sprint ran it. If you apply this situation to that example, customers in many major cities would be routinely without power even if they paid thier bill. Worse, it would take them weeks to get around to fixing it while customers were told by their support staff to "live with it". Does it seem silly to you that this would be OK as long as they told customers in the initial contract that they were not responsible for loss?

    If the company is not responsible, then who is?

    Best,
    D.
  12. #32  
    To further that example, say that Sprint ran your electric company, and they said that they had a new service that gave you electricity through new, innovative methods, and you could get it wirelessly (hehe, Nicola Tesla actually tried this but was shot down (or perhaps 'shut down', pardon the pun) by the electric company) with adaptors you could buy (let's say they range from $150 to $800, depending on what capabilities you want). With this electric service, just like with PCS service, you choose to use this service.

    Now it is more conceivable why one would see that power is out, etc. as per your example.

    People would be pissed! But, the service is new, and these things do happen. Many people have said in this post and others that to be on the cutting edge, you have to accept that these things happen. And the response is "it shouldn't have been brought out or sold if 'things' are going to happen", or that "why are we the guinea pigs?" Keep in mind, SPCS is doing better than the very first attempt at 3G, in Korea. The whole network crashed after it launched. This was back in early '01.

    The T&C does state that credits can be given in case of operator error (cust. service) or service outage. There are cases of that, of course, but the problem there is that the service reps are given authority over those judgements (a supervisor told me that all reps were empowered to make judgement calls whether credit was necessary in situations, on a case-by-case basis). But, posts here have stated that credit has been offered, fixing services have been offered, etc. Class action suits are about righting major wrongs, like MCI charging too much for collect calls. Has SPCS charged too much for data services (unlimited data for $10)? I looked at the links about Sprint's sins, and 3 were about CALs against Sprint: 1 was regarding ION, which was introduced in business markets in beta testing and abandoned (which I am sure caused the CAL there). 1 was about spam in Utah from Sprint. 1 was about mischarges by Sprint Long Distance in Kansas. None of these were about PCS (which is, remember, a separate company from Sprint Long Distance - they have separate presidents, etc. but both report to big poppa Sprint), and misrepresentation really hasn't occurred here. The service does work (data connections work, pictures can be uploaded and downloaded, games can play, phone calls can be made), and issues are on an individual basis - remember that for every person having trouble, there are probably 10 that aren't, it's just that they don't frequent TreoCentral's message boards or have the need to post things.

    Y'all bring up some good points, and hopefully CUSTOMER SERVICE improves!!! But, there are kinks, and as we all have heard or said before, the cutting edge isn't seamless technology. I remember a post (I think) where someone made the funny analogy of Alexander Bell saying that his phone service was crystal clear and nationwide (or something to that effect) before saying "ahoy" into the mouthpiece. Remember though that phone lines were laid across this great land with the idea that people could call all around way back when, and it didn't always work. It was revolutionary technology back then, and it didn't always work perfect. This is (for lack of a better term) revolutionary, and it won't be perfect at the get-go. Unless an employee there wants to speak up, we can't say what Sprint has done for "timely repair of broken services," for example. I would certainly say that Sprint is making its "best effort" to assist and continue service, otherwise the entire nation of SPCS users would revolt (which, we must recognize, are not. They have millions of customers - we would be more aware of a revolt).

    ******On a lot of this, I'm playing the devil's advocate. I've have complications getting my Treo set up too, but I got through it, sometimes with tech support help from SPCS, sometimes on my own. Derek, like you, I don't want to instigate flaming (against me, hehe). I am NOT an employee of Sprint, but I've thought about all these things too. You bring up important issues, but I don't believe that they support a class action suit. BUT, I may be wrong! Go on with yer bad selves! If you win, I'll eat my words, I guarantee it.
  13.    #33  
    First of all, I wan't to say that I appreciate you responding intelligently and with factual items to support your response. It makes this thread much more interesting and useful to everyone.

    Of course, now I must respond to those...

    Originally posted by needles
    To further that example, say that Sprint ran your electric company, and they said that they had a new service that gave you electricity through new, innovative methods, and you could get it wirelessly (hehe, Nicola Tesla actually tried this but was shot down (or perhaps 'shut down', pardon the pun) by the electric company) with adaptors you could buy (let's say they range from $150 to $800, depending on what capabilities you want). With this electric service, just like with PCS service, you choose to use this service.

    Now it is more conceivable why one would see that power is out, etc. as per your example.


    I disagree. First of all, wireless data is being delivered by many companies very reliably so I feel the "bleeding edge" argument is thin. That being said, If you want to compare 2G to 3G, I believe your point stands.

    Sure things can get fouled up and I accept this, but the problems Sprint is having seem to be widespread and systemic. This indicates that rushing the product to market to achieve revenue goals was more important to them than providing its customers with reliable service. This is akin to being pushed out of a restaurant quickly after a meal so they can turnover more patrons and make more money.


    People would be pissed! But, the service is new, and these things do happen. Many people have said in this post and others that to be on the cutting edge, you have to accept that these things happen. And the response is "it shouldn't have been brought out or sold if 'things' are going to happen", or that "why are we the guinea pigs?" Keep in mind, SPCS is doing better than the very first attempt at 3G, in Korea. The whole network crashed after it launched. This was back in early '01.


    My stance here is leniency.. Things do happen, but if they happen too often and customers are taken advantage of, companies should expect their customers to protect themselves and their wallets.

    Also, DoCoMo in Japan has had extremely successful 3G rollouts with very happy customers. This was the result of a successful and extensive beta program with over 50,000 existing wireless DoCoMo customers. Sprint should have used this model.


    The T&C does state that credits can be given in case of operator error (cust. service) or service outage. There are cases of that, of course, but the problem there is that the service reps are given authority over those judgements (a supervisor told me that all reps were empowered to make judgement calls whether credit was necessary in situations, on a case-by-case basis). But, posts here have stated that credit has been offered, fixing services have been offered, etc. Class action suits are about righting major wrongs, like MCI charging too much for collect calls. Has SPCS charged too much for data services (unlimited data for $10)?


    I disagree again. I believe Sprint charges too much for data services when they charge any amount of money for it and it does not work. This is simply failure to reliably deliver services which they are charging you for, which indeed MANY CAL's have been fought and won.


    I looked at the links about Sprint's sins, and 3 were about CALs against Sprint: 1 was regarding ION, which was introduced in business markets in beta testing and abandoned (which I am sure caused the CAL there). 1 was about spam in Utah from Sprint. 1 was about mischarges by Sprint Long Distance in Kansas. None of these were about PCS (which is, remember, a separate company from Sprint Long Distance - they have separate presidents, etc. but both report to big poppa Sprint), and misrepresentation really hasn't occurred here.


    Sorry but you should have looked more closely, there are many links regarding SPCS, there's even one right at the top regarding Sprint selling it's customers refurbished phones as new. Besides, these links were only a partial list and meant to give people a sense of the type of company Sprint may be.

    The service does work (data connections work, pictures can be uploaded and downloaded, games can play, phone calls can be made), and issues are on an individual basis - remember that for every person having trouble, there are probably 10 that aren't, it's just that they don't frequent TreoCentral's message boards or have the need to post things.

    Y'all bring up some good points, and hopefully CUSTOMER SERVICE improves!!! But, there are kinks, and as we all have heard or said before, the cutting edge isn't seamless technology. I remember a post (I think) where someone made the funny analogy of Alexander Bell saying that his phone service was crystal clear and nationwide (or something to that effect) before saying "ahoy" into the mouthpiece. Remember though that phone lines were laid across this great land with the idea that people could call all around way back when, and it didn't always work. It was revolutionary technology back then, and it didn't always work perfect. This is (for lack of a better term) revolutionary, and it won't be perfect at the get-go.


    Sorry, but I have to disagree once again. 3G services are not the same thing as the first roll-out of telecommunication infrastructure. 3G means "3rd Generation". This is just an enhanced higher speed version of existing voice/data infrastructure. What you're comparing this to (the invention of the telephone) is very different IMHO.

    Unless an employee there wants to speak up, we can't say what Sprint has done for "timely repair of broken services," for example. I would certainly say that Sprint is making its "best effort" to assist and continue service, otherwise the entire nation of SPCS users would revolt (which, we must recognize, are not. They have millions of customers - we would be more aware of a revolt).

    I would be willing to bet that the reason the entire nation is not revolting against Sprint is because most are not or have not yet moved to 3G. As this occurs, I believe things will get worse for everyone, including Sprint.

    ******On a lot of this, I'm playing the devil's advocate. I've have complications getting my Treo set up too, but I got through it, sometimes with tech support help from SPCS, sometimes on my own. Derek, like you, I don't want to instigate flaming (against me, hehe). I am NOT an employee of Sprint, but I've thought about all these things too. You bring up important issues, but I don't believe that they support a class action suit. BUT, I may be wrong! Go on with yer bad selves! If you win, I'll eat my words, I guarantee it.
    Best,
    Derek.
  14. #34  
    my compliments to all on maintaining a very high level of intelligence and fair play in this discussion. instead of resorting to a bunch of name calling and insults, this is a great discussion among very smart folks.

    personally i am not a heavy web user and although it has often been a pain to get connected to the web, my main use was checking my aol email and i have managed to accomplish that more times than not. considering the current price of $10 unlimited, i will continue and hope that they improve in the near future.

    my sprint phone service has been great, and the palm aspects of the treo are also neat, and i have been able to use the calendar features through sync, not web connection, so on we go, and let's keep a good hope.
    Change is a challenge to the adventurous, an opportunity to the alert, a threat to the insecure.
  15. #35  
    I think you're right.

    It is painfully clear that Japan's 3G rollout was much smoother that what we are experiencing (without resorting to stereotypical "Japan's good at electronics!", they and Europe are better than the US).

    >>This is akin to being pushed out of a restaurant quickly after a meal so they can turnover more patrons and make more money.
    <<

    Of course, this *is* the case in the US! Go to Applebees or Carlos O'Kelley's and try to hang around for a few hours!

    We of course don't know the inner workings of SPCS, and how they are reacting. I still have difficulty believing that they choose to overlook all of the problems, surely there are techs and the like working like mad to fix problems as they arise, and it does seem that the change of data charging to $10/unlimited show a certain attempt to reconcile or alleviate data issues (tracking the usage, guessing how much one will use, connection issues that burn up kb usage). I just don't know - aside from the outraged individuals that may have extreme examples of issues (massive plan screwups [which shouldn't be related to 3G but to customer service competence], misrepresentations of service availability at stores, etc.), which are each unique cases, it would seem, that should be handled separately, I don't know about a CAL. Of course, I may be biased by my disdain for the "I'll sue you!" mentality, which I grant may very well not be the case here. I just feel fortunate that I haven't had the myriad of insane problems some people here have!

    Take care guys
  16.    #36  
    Well, I don't know how moral it is to sue either, I'll leave that debate to people smarter than I but a couple of things do come to mind...

    1. In foreign countries, (especially Japan) involving the courts is an extremely last-ditch effort. They however have much less of a need for such things as companies are in general, far more honorable.

    2. The US is very different. Since many companies do not police themselves, we rely on a system of "checks and balances" (ala US Constitution 101). The legal system in our country is part of this system.

    IMHO, this is why we have so many lawsuits.

    Is it right or wrong? I don't know the answer, but it is an integral part of our society in either case.

    Personally - I hate lawers though.

    Derek.
  17. #37  
    Its about time sprint took back your non deserving credits. another thing how do you SHUT BACK ON A SERVICE? your grammer is just as bad as your attitude towards the nations largest and best cellular service. You call sprint so much they finally shut you down hahahahaaha.....you got what you deserved....Long live sprint

    ps no more credits for you...hahaahaha
  18. #38  
    Grow the hell up!
    MRL-MO
  19. #39  
    i put him on my 'ignore' list so i don't have to read his bs
    Change is a challenge to the adventurous, an opportunity to the alert, a threat to the insecure.
  20. #40  
    We wouldn’t need lawyers if there were not any lawyers.
    This is so stupid. All these unsatisfied customers claim they "cant switch service". BS. The fact of the matter is in a competitive market the best product/cost structure wins- and at this moment Sprint Wins! That’s why you “cant switch”. Despite its faults. It is in Sprints best interest to create satisfied customers, and I really think they are working to improve service. I have seen noticeable improvement in internet speed and CS in just the 3 months since I got my Treo (Ive been with SPCS for 4 years). That’s fast for a company the size of Sprint.
    So, Sprint increases its service plan costs to cover legal costs, and guess what? We get a new thread on how sprint is ripping us off! Lets sue!!! Meanwhile the lawyers are buying a new Porsche GT2 (it would be my pick, anyway).
    Anyone who owns a computer needs to ask yourself- How much time have you wasted trying to fix some new software or hardware? Isn’t that ripe for a law suit in your eyes? Didn’t the box say it would save time and go faster?
    Switch service. If you cant find a competing product then your a) stuck with what you’ve got or b) quit the service and wait 5 years when phone/pda/internet devices have evolved to a level of reliability you can deal with (same for your home computer).
    This law suit mentality that we live in today makes me sick!
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