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  1.    #1  
    After much debating back and forth between people who say that they are Sprint PCS techs and Sprint PCS employees on this board, I took the advice of one of these individuals and called 3g tech support.

    After about 40 minutes on hold I spoke to the FLOOR MANAGER (whatever that means) of 3g tech support. He told me that he has personally not heard of ANY of the speed problems that we are experiencing here on this forum, and that for the most part the people at the 3g center are getting around 100 kbps.

    I encourage you all to call the 3g tech support line (direct line) at 877-228-2257 and explain to them the problems you are having.

    The one thing this individual did suggest to me was to go to a SPCS store and do a side by side speed comparison, to make sure that I didn't need to "reprogram my phone" as another supposed SPCS employee here stated. (3g tech support did not seem to think this would make any difference in improving my speed).

    I went to a SPCS store and did a side by side comparison downloading a web page (www.gamesdomain.com) on both my treo and the store's treo 300.

    Both were going at approximately the same speed -- slightly LESS than 1 k BYTE per second.

    Thus, "reprogramming" your phone etc. is probably not going to make up for any speed issues.

    It is inherent i the Sprint PCS network -- 3g is simply not living up to the speeds that SPCS is claiming.

    Someone please prove me wrong -- but I doubt this network, as it is right now, is capable of sustained average transfer speeds of 50 to 70 kbps as Spring claims.

    Maybe in a few months (after the "free" period is over?) we'll see increased data rates. But, as most of you have suspected, this is something that SPCS has rolled out the door before it was truly ready for prime time, and as a result it is not meeting the specifications tha it was advertised to support.

    I'm fairly disappointed, but I have expected this (NOTE: this does not mean I have to accept it). All new technology is buggy. This does not make it "ok" for SPCS to falsely advertise the technology as getting 50 to 70kbps, nor does it make it ok for SPCS to continue to insist that there is "nothing wrong with the 3g network and it is working as intended" -- when quite clearly, for the majority of posters here, it is NOT working as intended (unless intended = 1 kbyte per second).

    Then again, I suppose there are some who say I have no right to complain, after spending $500 on a phone and signing a 2 year service contract. I suppose the fact that the first 3 months of data are free should somehow make up for the inconvenience and deception we have all be subjected to.

    At any rate, I'm done devoting my time to this issue. I've got other important things to do. I'll post back to this forum as time permits, but for now, it's time for me to focus on the more relevant issues in my life. In the mean time, let's all cross our fingers and hope that SPCS will stop spending so much time lying to us, and start spending time upgrading their "3g" network, which is currently broken.
  2. #2  
    Maybe this weekend upgrade thing will do something...anything???

    Try and keep current on the board Doctorc, we use much of your information!

    nobull
  3. #3  
    Hey Doctorc... I just want to echo what you said.
    At first I didn't believe that the guy posting on this board was really a SprintPCS rep. But the fact that he TOTALLY ignores the fact that EVERYBODY is having the same results and that those aren't anywhere near what he's claiming he's seeing... THAT makes me believe he is a SprintPCS rep.

    Never seen such a blatant case of "The Emprorers New Clothes". SprintPCS looks us all in the metaphorical eye and says "There's no problem... it's just YOUR phone". Of course they say that to EVERYBODY. THERE IS NOT A SINGLE PERSON ON THIS BOARD GETTING THE RESULTS YOU CLAIM! HELLO???
    These people have never heard of the word statistics. They seem to truly believe that the 100 people on this board from all around the country are anomalies and that in fact everyone who's NOT on this board has blazing service.

    Pardon my language but screw SprintPCS. They are inept and they are liars.
  4. #4  
    We'll have to see how fast things are and what they advertise after the "free" period is up and someone that is an attorney uses one of these . Or someone with enough money to make a case out of the issue. I guess Sprint is in the clear till the 3 month freebie is over for anyone. Since for now we can't say we paid for the bad service.

    So I guess this gives Sprint 3 months after release to get things straight. Maybe they knew it would take another 3 months and figured they'd just get some real-world load testing going in the process. Maybe we are just an extended 3 month QA team .
  5. #5  
    ... how is everyone reading or estimating the 3G data speeds on their 300's? Is there a utility or app. that is available that provides this info -- I'd like to see what I'm clocking? Thanks.
  6. #6  
    Originally posted by fgkay
    ... how is everyone reading or estimating the 3G data speeds on their 300's? Is there a utility or app. that is available that provides this info -- I'd like to see what I'm clocking? Thanks.
    Any such application that is created will be quickly invalidated by Sprint
  7. #7  
    how is everyone reading or estimating the 3G data speeds on their 300's
    Most people are using blazer and checking how long the downloads take. I suspect these numbers are, in fact, a bit optimistic, because I suspect blazer reports the uncompressed file size. So if a 20kbyte image file is compressed to 2kbytes, sent down to your phone, and displayed by blazer, blazer will report 20kbytes, not 2kbytes.

    I really don't know if the limitations are in the network or the phone. Its quite possible that a 40mhz palm + blazer can't handle the data through this network. One very good test would be for a data only laptop user to run some speed tests.
  8. #8  
    Blazer is probably not the best thing to test here.

    Remember that Blazer works through a proxy, so what you are actually seeing may have a large amount of delay from the type the proxy server connects and gets the actual data, converts it and then sends it to you.

    I would prefer to see data being transfered through FTP or something like it... a direct connection to the other end without the proxy in the way.

    I don't know of a way to do this yet, but I'm sure you can find them... For kicks, you may try to use the vnc client w/ and w/o 3g and see how it compares... that data is a little better, but there is no way to see the throughput.

    To me, it feels fast enough (and much faster than wireless web), the slow part seems to be the proxy.

    Any ideas on how to test it? The fact that blazer stops in bursts, may be an indication of the lag in the proxy... not of data being transfered. Think about it, if data was being transfered in burst, your connection (voice or otherwise) would drop often...

    feel free to flame if you disagree
    Newton->Visor Deluxe->Visor Prism->Treo 300->Treo 600->Treo 650->Treo 755p->Touch Pro->Palm Pre!
  9. #9  
    what you are actually seeing may have a large amount of delay from the type the proxy server connects and gets the actual data, converts it and then sends it to you.
    Do you think proxy servers are the bottleneck at 50kbps? Unless they're running those servers on 486's, I wouldn't think they'd be.

    The fact that blazer stops in bursts, may be an indication of the lag in the proxy... not of data being transfered. Think about it, if data was being transfered in burst, your connection (voice or otherwise) would drop often
    Part of the "burst" may be blazer speeding up when it receives a large image file then "uncompresses" it. Subjectively, I found it to be less bursty when downloading text only.

    Needless to say, you could be right. These are just some other possibilities
  10. #10  
    I don't know about that. I paid more that $500 for the phone and had to pay $20 more a month in order to use the service. And even if you factor in a $10 credit, which I will believe when I see it. If Sprint said the sun rose in the east I would break out my astronomy book. That still means I am paying $5-$10 more for the privilege. Not to mention I may be locked into another two years of lousy service.


    a case out of the issue. I guess Sprint is in the clear till the 3 month freebie is over for anyone. Since for now we can't say we paid for the bad service.]
  11.    #11  
    Originally posted by Starlord III
    I don't know about that. I paid more that $500 for the phone and had to pay $20 more a month in order to use the service. And even if you factor in a $10 credit, which I will believe when I see it. If Sprint said the sun rose in the east I would break out my astronomy book. That still means I am paying $5-$10 more for the privilege. Not to mention I may be locked into another two years of lousy service.


    a case out of the issue. I guess Sprint is in the clear till the 3 month freebie is over for anyone. Since for now we can't say we paid for the bad service.]
    Keep the posts coming on this thread folks, maybe someone at SPCS will finally actually listen... maybe...
  12. #12  
    Fsike and I are able to get 40ishkbps on the data network:

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...threadid=25804

    So the data network works as advertised. Could be a problem with their internet backbone, or with blazer.
  13.    #13  
    Originally posted by work_permit
    Fsike and I are able to get 40ishkbps on the data network:

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/tc...threadid=25804

    So the data network works as advertised. Could be a problem with their internet backbone, or with blazer.
    Hmm. Interesting. I'll have to try this.

    Maybe it's Blazer, or maybe SPCS backbone is not capable of supporting all the newer, higher speed traffic to and from the internet...
  14.    #14  
    Originally posted by doctorc


    Hmm. Interesting. I'll have to try this.

    Maybe it's Blazer, or maybe SPCS backbone is not capable of supporting all the newer, higher speed traffic to and from the internet...
    BTW my friend just purchased an Audiovox Thera from Verizon and he is going to bring it over this weekend.

    He says that he regularly gets about 60kbps from this device on the Verizon network here in DC. Last night we were on the phone (landline) together and were loading the same pages while talking to each other, and timing how long it would take him vs. me to finish loading the pages. Granted, not very scientific as it is an entirely different network and different devices etc.

    On average, his seemed to finish loading pages about 3x faster than the Treo 300.

    So, is this a SPCS issue, software, issue, or hardware issue?

    Who knows.

    One thing is for certain, I'm in no danger of trading my Treo in for a Thera. I woudln't mind having a PPC device but I cannot live without the built in thumboard.
  15. Jkjones1's Avatar
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    #15  
    I think we all need to keep in mind that that comparison might not be the most valid. The Thera runs a 206mhz processor that, although the Pocketpc software is much larger and requires more power to work efficiently that the PalmOs software, still allows it to process data faster than a 33mhz motorola processor. I would imagine that, given the same throughput, you would usually see the thera outperform the treo when downloading the same amount of data. Although I am no expert, I believe this makes sense.

    That being said, I use the audiovox maestro (the non-wireless cousin of the thera) and am seriously considering switching to the treo, as it looks awesome. I live in the atlanta area and travel throughout the southeast - has anyone had any coverage issues thus far?

    Also, what are all the "upgrades" that are happening this weekend - I have heard them mentioned in numerous threads - does anyone have any specifics on what they are doing?

    Thanks
  16. #16  
    I am getting pretty good speed here in Burlington MA and also at my home in Arlington MA. The speed seems similar to a 56K modem. I've never waited for more than a minute for any page - even large ones with lots of images, such as http://slashdot.com .

    I like the way images are scaled down before being sent to Blazer.
  17.    #17  
    Originally posted by jkjones1
    I think we all need to keep in mind that that comparison might not be the most valid. The Thera runs a 206mhz processor that, although the Pocketpc software is much larger and requires more power to work efficiently that the PalmOs software, still allows it to process data faster than a 33mhz motorola processor. I would imagine that, given the same throughput, you would usually see the thera outperform the treo when downloading the same amount of data. Although I am no expert, I believe this makes sense.

    That being said, I use the audiovox maestro (the non-wireless cousin of the thera) and am seriously considering switching to the treo, as it looks awesome. I live in the atlanta area and travel throughout the southeast - has anyone had any coverage issues thus far?

    Also, what are all the "upgrades" that are happening this weekend - I have heard them mentioned in numerous threads - does anyone have any specifics on what they are doing?

    Thanks
    Yes, due to hardware considerations this may not be a valid comparison... but I am still curios to see how it works. Who knows I may be converted to Pocket PC this weekend -- I doubt it. It will take a hell of a lot of convincing to get me to give up the thumboard.

    As for the upgrades, I have heard they are only upgrades to the billing / administrative stuff.
  18. #18  
    I will be so glad when we get passed this "My daddy's bigger than your daddy" nonsense.

    Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but really ...
    I've been waiting for someont to complian about the headset hanging up calls or the back light fizzling out. All I'm hearing is alot of nonsense about how 3G is not delivering the speeds it promised ... and I as yet have not heard ANYONE who knows what the bits per second really is. Oh I've heard ... "my web page loaded at X" .... guess what ... THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BITS PER SECOND. That is data rate and data rate can be affected by a cow fart in North Carolina.

    I write device drivers for a fibre channel card, rated at 1.02 giga bits per second, or 102 mega bytes per second. Sometimes in testing between machines with the same card I get a data rate of 1 or 2 mega bytes per second other times I get a data rate of 100+ mega bytes per second. Why? Because of overhead! Data is always transferred at 1.02 Gbps. Overhead is lots of things. Its the amount of time it takes to process the data packet at both ends before it is sent and after it is received. It is the size of the packet that contains the data. Smaller data buffers encure more overhead than larger buffers. So say you have a packet that contains 512 bytes of data but the wrapper information for the communicatons protocol (IP in this case) adds 256 bytes of header and trailer information. The system is transferreing a 768 byte packet. However if you are using 1 MByte buffer, the overhead remains the same but your data rate sky rockets.

    So someone says they received a 38K HTML in one minute ... no they didn't. How much OVERHEAD is associated with that transfer? How large was the packet size and how much of each packet was data and how much header and trailer information? I have no doubt at all that data is being transferred at the fastest negotiated speed possible. The BITS PER SECOND is going to be at a 3G rate.

    Some one measuring how fast a web page loads and then crying because it is slow is, technically speaking, ludicrous. That cow farting in North Carolina could have caused corrosion in a receiver connector that caused a dozen retrys on several of the data packets.

    So you want faster data rates? Avoid cow farts.

    Gary
  19.    #19  
    Originally posted by Gary G. Little
    I will be so glad when we get passed this "My daddy's bigger than your daddy" nonsense.

    Maybe I'm just a curmudgeon, but really ...
    I've been waiting for someont to complian about the headset hanging up calls or the back light fizzling out. All I'm hearing is alot of nonsense about how 3G is not delivering the speeds it promised ... and I as yet have not heard ANYONE who knows what the bits per second really is. Oh I've heard ... "my web page loaded at X" .... guess what ... THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BITS PER SECOND. That is data rate and data rate can be affected by a cow fart in North Carolina.

    I write device drivers for a fibre channel card, rated at 1.02 giga bits per second, or 102 mega bytes per second. Sometimes in testing between machines with the same card I get a data rate of 1 or 2 mega bytes per second other times I get a data rate of 100+ mega bytes per second. Why? Because of overhead! Data is always transferred at 1.02 Gbps. Overhead is lots of things. Its the amount of time it takes to process the data packet at both ends before it is sent and after it is received. It is the size of the packet that contains the data. Smaller data buffers encure more overhead than larger buffers. So say you have a packet that contains 512 bytes of data but the wrapper information for the communicatons protocol (IP in this case) adds 256 bytes of header and trailer information. The system is transferreing a 768 byte packet. However if you are using 1 MByte buffer, the overhead remains the same but your data rate sky rockets.

    So someone says they received a 38K HTML in one minute ... no they didn't. How much OVERHEAD is associated with that transfer? How large was the packet size and how much of each packet was data and how much header and trailer information? I have no doubt at all that data is being transferred at the fastest negotiated speed possible. The BITS PER SECOND is going to be at a 3G rate.

    Some one measuring how fast a web page loads and then crying because it is slow is, technically speaking ludicrous. That cow farting in Norht Carolina could have caused corrosion in a receiver connector that caused a dozen retrys on several of the data packets.

    Gary
    Gary, thanks for the eloquent explanation. Believe me, I understand overhead, and a lot of the other factors you've taken the time to explain, including the cow fart.

    However, when sprint advertises as 50 to 70kbps average throughput, I guess they should make the distinction that this does not include things like overhead etc and that YMMV. I suppose somewhere in the fine print they do.

    I guess it all comes down to that Sprint has overhyped 3g, as do all companies releasing products -- and it has not lived up to most of our expectations. Is it faster than 2g? Some say so, I personally disagree. Is it faster than 56k dialup -- absolutely not.

    The point is -- the technology is fairly disappointing, and for most users is probably not worth the upgrade, unless you have to have a new phone or pda. It is also extremely overpriced for what you get. This will change.

    So, while I agree about your cow farts, this does not change the fact that 3g is performing poorly, and Sprint needs to either fix this, or stop making claims that it is supposed to be faster than a dialup connection, etc. etc.

    While I am personally not satisfied with the technology, I won't send it back either. I love the Treo 300, and eventually I have faith that Sprint will bring their network capacity up so that we will have less overhead and more room for cow farts... I hope they don't introduce "PCS SMELLoVision" into 4g....
  20. #20  
    The question, though, is what is the bits per second, and not how fast you can download a given page. If the bits per second is 144K bits per second then a slow download could be because of a slow leg in the network between the transmitter and the receiver.

    DoctorC, maybe all your packets are being routed through Dairy Land?



    Gary
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