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  1.    #1  
    It's almost the size of the Treo 270 and its screen size. But, I wonder how reliable the flip-screen would be after several use.

    Do you think it would be handier and sleeker to out best Treo 270? Or the Treo 270 format is still a safer and more reliable format?

    http://www.kyocera-wireless.com/show..._soon_7135.htm
  2. #2  
    Originally posted by ManofTrueGod
    It's almost the size of the Treo 270 and its screen size. But, I wonder how reliable the flip-screen would be after several use.

    Do you think it would be handier and sleeker to out best Treo 270? Or the Treo 270 format is still a safer and more reliable format?

    http://www.kyocera-wireless.com/show..._soon_7135.htm

    Just checked out the above site. Very interesting. After almost 2 weeks of disappointing negative feedback for the Treo 270, including my own "blank screen" and "useless headset" experience, it seems that the Kyocera has all the good stuff that we have all been wishing the Treo should have had. I actually told other people not to buy it yet because of all these unresolved issues with the screen and headsets. If the model comes out before my 30 day full refund expires, I just might dump my Treo. Maybe.....

    My replacement Treo is working ok so far, after 1 week, but somehow I got the feeling, the screen would go blank again. It's really not a good feeling at all. I hope Handspring management is monitoring these threads!!! Or, maybe Treo Central can convert all these comments into an email and automatically forward them to Handspring executive office. It should catch their attention very quickly!
    Ed
  3. #3  
    Originally posted by ManofTrueGod
    It's almost the size of the Treo 270 and its screen size. But, I wonder how reliable the flip-screen would be after several use.

    Do you think it would be handier and sleeker to out best Treo 270? Or the Treo 270 format is still a safer and more reliable format?

    http://www.kyocera-wireless.com/show..._soon_7135.htm
    I need to use word play to respond;

    Has anyone seen the keyboard for the Kyocera 7135?

    An awsome speced/looking unit... but for me,

    No keyboard, no debate.


    Rod
    "Happy are they whose sins are forgiven, whose wrongs are pardoned"

    Romans 4:7
  4. iJITSU's Avatar
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    #4  
    My vote is for the Kyocera.

    They make phones for a living
    Unit is phone first, PDA second
    normal phone keypad
    graffiti area
    true flip design with screen on one side/keys on other
    16bit color
    SD slot
    MP3
    Triband (2 CDMA and analog)
    user replaceable battery

    VS.

    coded keyboard

    I think I can live without the keyboard.
  5. #5  
    Handspring, are you paying attention ? The 7135 is a killer phone, at least by appearance and specs. This is what the 270 should be. Any one have an idea when the 7135 will be available ? I believe my 270 is going back.....
  6. dbasham's Avatar
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    #6  
    You guys are funny but I guess to each his own. I personally love my Treo 270 and can't imagine sending it back for anything. I have been resisting other "less than perfect" devices from both Palm and Pocket PC. I personally bought a Cassiopeia a couple of years ago that is now a doorstop b/c it was way too big.

    The Treo 270 is what I would consider a "perfect" device right now. I could give two sh**s about an expansion device at the moment because I have only used 4 MB of RAM so far (12 MB left) and I think I have all the apps that I need.

    One thing I CAN'T give up is the keyboard as that is one reason I didn't use the Casio (in addition to the whole size thing). That is the ONE major flaw I see in the Kyo. You couldn't pay me enough to go back to typing on a phone keypad or grafitti like they will probably use.

    I know being able to play MPs and adding a GPS, etc SOUNDS cool but ultimately for me it is about the pure functionality of the device. For me the reason I BOUGHT a Treo is for my calendar, TO-DOs, contacts, expenses, documents (Word/etc) and the integration of this into my PHONE with the addition of wireless Web.

    Plus the size is right and the implementation is almost perfect. Once they add GPRS, fix a few early bugs (which I can live with anyway, there are ways around them), and enhance a few things (dial via speakerphone, mute, etc) it WILL be the perfect device.

    Bottom line is that additional gadgets (and backup) would be nice but I am sure that there will be a jacket for the Treo soon anyway (if I even care). If you want to send you Treo back go ahead but for me just try to PRY the Treo out of my hot little hands.

    BTW, the one thing that I thought was TRULY a good idea on the Kyo was Tri-mode. How hard can it be to add analog support to the Treo (guessing it is probably because of the hardware they chose to use but this is ONE thing that DOES bug me)?
    --Denny
  7. ESH
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    #7  
    Denny-

    Excellent post! I think you have captured the essence of what most of us feel about our TREO 270's. The naysayers and whiners will always be around but the general public hasen't a clue that these "cyber user groups" exist and are un-effected by actives like us that provide anecdotal research that is neither statistically valid nor documented. 18 years ago Apple introduced the first Mac. For years I read boards similair to this one that was populated by people that had paid big bucks for Mac's and spent most of their time complaining. In the meantime I bought a Mac almost right after introduction and spent countless hours a day playing with my 128K, single disc drive, 9 inch greyscale moniter, $2,800 "etch-a-sketch". But I was functional. I didn't spend months learning DOS and waiting for crashes. I was productive, just as you and I are productive out of the box with our 270's. The dirges for Apple and the Mac have been played for 18 years. While it will never overtake the PC nor have the marketshare it deserves, it is still by most "experts" opinion the best personal computing device made. Handspring reminds me a lot of Apple. Upstarts that took on the "big guys". made mistakes but survived and made it possible for "the rest of us" to be productive sooner. I haven't owned a Mac since the release of Windows 98 because Microsoft finally got the message and released something almost as good as the Mac OS and compatible with the rest of the sheep in corporate America. Someday I may give into Sony or Kyrocera or Nokia, but for now the TREO 270 fufills my needs and then some and I believe it will continue to improve.

    Eric
  8. AdamK's Avatar
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    #8  
    Here's my take on the whole issue:

    A person is either a phone person or a PDA person. Think about it for a second: how much time do you spend on your PDA vs. your phone? And what about the people you know: how many of them own a PDA but barely use it?

    I think a PDA person is going to prefer a Treo due to its form factor (big screen) and keyboard (data entry).

    And a phone person is going to prefer a 7135-type device due to its form factor (looks like a phone) and a dial-pad (data entry). In fact, the Kyocera folks have said that most people prefer it for those reasons. My guess is that they were talking to phone people and not PDA people.

    I'm a PDA person. I like the way my 180 works a whole heck of a lot. I like a lot of the features on the 7135 but the lack of keyboard is a dealbreaker for me. I wish my 180's phone functionality was better (no echo!!!, better sound quality) but as a PDA, it's sublime.

    Unfortunately, I think that there are more phone people than PDA people out there. As a result, I think that most smartphones will look like the 7135 and not the Treo. Probably not the best news for Handspring.
  9. ESH
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    #9  
    Good points. I never gave much thought to what cell phone I had as long as it worked and was as small as possible. Never used half the features and could not conceive of email or internet on a typical cell phone display. From the day I got my first PDA, about three years ago, I kept saying why can't this be a phone too? Gave up my little Nokia 8260 for a bulky Visorphone/Prism combo and never regretted it for a minute. Now with my 270 I am actually using many of the typical cell phone features I never used with the Nokia. Gee, I also never spent an hour a day on a board like this learning about and discussing the virtues of a cell phone. Guess I'm a PDA person, huh? And I think you are right, Handspring has provided me with the PDA features I want and the cell phone function I need.

    Eric
  10. ptpete's Avatar
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    #10  
    I think which "communicator" becomes more popular all depends on if you are a phone person wanting your phone to be a PDA or a PDA person wanting your PDA to be a phone.

    Handspring is targeting those who already have both devices to consolidate to one. So Handspring put alot of thought into making data entry easy. One handed operation. etc. Blazer browser ect. You don't need a graffiti section because it takes up too much space and the screen can be made to accept graffiti. Put a keyboard in because you have blackberry on your ****.

    I think they did drop the ball on making the phone aspect work better first round but as long as they get it better down the line there should be no problem. I think the closer tie up with Sprint will be a major boon.

    Kyocera is hoping that a phone user will want to have more PDA functions. It is following the path taken in japan (naturally) where PDA's never took off but the cell phone just evolved and started to accrue PDA like functions. Then they came to america and saw hey, palm os is popular. Let's cram it into a phone.

    The Kyocera is not as well thought out for the American market. (Heck a japanese phone would never have a blackberry type keyboard. Japanese kids can tap out over 2000 different Kanji (chinese characters) with the regular 12 key keybad) (Likewise Hand will not do so well in Japan) (Sony would never dream of wrecking their design with a stupid qwerty keyboard).

    I think Kyocera's design will be a turn off to people familiar with PDA's.

    The upgrade path is

    cell phone only user---> cell phone user and PDA user---> Combo device user. (maybe)

    This upgrade path is more difficult (the one Kyocera is counting on) Because a cell phone only user, who may be used to having a tiny phone will go "ACKK. you want me to carry that brick just so I can have some PDA functions. I don't even know what PDA functions i want"

    cell phone user --> combo device

    Case in point. Kyocera stress on playing MP3s. Ummm. it has 16 mb of memory people!!!

    P
  11. ptpete's Avatar
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    #11  
    I think which "communicator" becomes more popular all depends on if you are a phone person wanting your phone to be a PDA or a PDA person wanting your PDA to be a phone.

    Handspring is targeting those who already have both devices to consolidate to one. So Handspring put alot of thought into making data entry easy. One handed operation. etc. Blazer browser ect. You don't need a graffiti section because it takes up too much space and the screen can be made to accept graffiti. Put a keyboard in because you have blackberry on your ****.

    I think they did drop the ball on making the phone aspect work better first round but as long as they get it better down the line there should be no problem. I think the closer tie up with Sprint will be a major boon.

    Kyocera is hoping that a phone user will want to have more PDA functions. It is following the path taken in japan (naturally) where PDA's never took off but the cell phone just evolved and started to accrue PDA like functions. Then they came to america and saw hey, palm os is popular. Let's cram it into a phone.

    The Kyocera is not as well thought out for the American market. (Heck a japanese phone would never have a blackberry type keyboard. Japanese kids can tap out over 2000 different Kanji (chinese characters) with the regular 12 key keybad) (Likewise Hand will not do so well in Japan) (Sony would never dream of wrecking their design with a stupid qwerty keyboard).

    I think Kyocera's design will be a turn off to people familiar with PDA's.

    The upgrade path is

    cell phone only user---> cell phone user and PDA user---> Combo device user. (maybe)

    This upgrade path is more difficult (the one Kyocera is counting on) Because a cell phone only user, who may be used to having a tiny phone will go "ACKK. you want me to carry that brick just so I can have some PDA functions. I don't even know what PDA functions i want"

    cell phone user --> combo device

    Case in point. Kyocera stress on playing MP3s. Ummm. it has 16 mb of memory people!!!

    P
  12. iJITSU's Avatar
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    #12  
    I believe smartphones are the future. I don't know what form factor or feature set they will take exactly, but I believe eventually the public won't even consider a phone without a color screen and PIM functions. As technology progresses, video conferencing and organizing from one small mobile device will become the norm, I believe. May be a while, but I believe it's on the way. Think "global communicator" from Earth:Final Conflict.
  13. #13  
    Originally posted by AdamK A person is either a phone person or a PDA person.
    Exactly!! I was looking at the Kyocera 7135 demo and thinking: "wow, that's an amazing phone!!". The key word there was "phone"; notice how the PDA functionality was never demo'd.

    When I thought about using the 7135 I could just imagine how really awkward it would be to be sitting in a meeting entering data into this thing. The Treo has an incredible blend of functionality that gives you a great phone while not robbing you of having a very useable PDA. Heck, it's even more useable than most other PDA-only devices out there.

    Many aspects of the Treo make it incredibly functional, much like the first Pilot was. I remember how people forcast the Pilot's quick demise because it was "too simple" and lacked so many features. It didn't only become the first PDA concept to stick around, but it started a revolution (how many PDA's out there don't look like a palm nowadays?) because that simplicity desguised tremendous useablility. This is the case with the Treo. Exmples of the "little things" that make the Treo a killer device are the keyboard, the jog rocker (both highly integrated into the functionality) and the see-through cover, which allows things like one button press to check your schedule, among many others.

    So I will personally be very disappointed if Handspring follows in Kyocera's footsteps and only provide devices with numeric keypads and smaller screens.
    Last edited by silverado; 06/29/2002 at 10:01 PM.
  14.    #14  
    One thing I am seriously considering for my next device has to do with the keyboard. Can anyone through experience comment on this?

    Which is better or efficient or effective in day-to-day use?

    a. Virtual keyboard using tapping on a touch screen
    b. Actual keyboard
    c. Graffiti

    To simulate a Treo 270 keyboard, I do two-thumbs on my Nokia 9210 just to see if I can manage it. However, the keys are far apart for two-thumbs operations, keeping the 9210 on both my hands. If I placed the 9210 on my lap or a table which I often do when attending a conference, I use two fingers and it's just fine.

    I also tried to simulate a virtual keyboard by tapping on the 9210 keyboard using a pencil's eraser end but I realized a virtual keyboard would be much smaller.

    The Treo 270 looks to be a good replacement for the 9210 - smaller, probably lighter. But my worry is with the small keyboard much smaller than the Nokia 9210.

    That's why I wondered if I could opt for a virtual keyboard if I find it to be a problem and if whether that Virtual Keyboard would reduce the screen display significantly.

    Any comments? Probably the numeric keypad of Kyocera is for the SMS fast typers. But that would be tedious if one is taking notes of a discussion or talk in a conference.
  15. #15  
    Originally posted by ManofTrueGod
    One thing I am seriously considering for my next device has to do with the keyboard. Can anyone through experience comment on this?

    Which is better or efficient or effective in day-to-day use?

    a. Virtual keyboard using tapping on a touch screen
    b. Actual keyboard
    c. Graffiti

    Any comments? Probably the numeric keypad of Kyocera is for the SMS fast typers. But that would be tedious if one is taking notes of a discussion or talk in a conference.
    Speaking from my experience with the original Nokia 9000, the 9120, the RIM Blackberry, the Palm VII and 705i, and numeric key-pads, I find that the Blackberry and Treo 270 have the better keyboard to enter text, do e-mails, fill out forms, etc. As far as type speed is concerned, the Blackberry has the better keyboard for thumb typing (my thumbs are over-proportionally large) followed closely by the Treo. Both are at least twice as fast as graffiti or the on-screen keyboard on the Palm. I am fluent in Graffiti, but I never reached the speed and accuracy of thumb keyboards. I liked the Nokia Communicators, but the keyboard requires you to have a solid surface to put your communicator down, and the spacing is too far off to thumb-type, but too close to touch type.

    Numeric key-pads are a joke if you have to enter a lot of text.

    I used to love the Communicator, but I found that the software choice is somewhat limited and the form factor did not appeal to me. I still carried a Palm most of the time, and had a second communicator for international travel. I then decided on a three device solution: world-phone, Palm 705i, and RIM Blackberry. Add on two travel chargers, service charges for three devices ...

    I find that the Treo firstly allows me to just carry one device with all the functionality I need. I am definitely more efficient, having good phone and addressbook integration, being able to send SMS (if only concatenated SMS was an option ...), and having access to e-mail, WAP and after some hacking to webclippings. If you send more then a few messages a day and you like the PDA functions, the Treo 270 is your system of choice.
  16.    #16  
    I found an article that I found I can agree with on this issue. The article seemed to favor features found in Treo 270 EXCEPT that the author wants a phone keypad rather than a virtual phone numeric keypad.

    I thought you can do that with Treo 270 by enabling the numeric pad?

    http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupda...873702,00.html
  17. #17  
    Um, I don't know about the 270, but with my 180 at least I can just use the numbers on the keypad to dial a number when in the phone app. Sure, it starts looking for names that start with those letters, but eventually it realizes I'm typing a number and then works just as a phone. It works beautifully.
  18. #18  
    The same thing happens in the Treo 270.


    Originally posted by KRamsauer
    Um, I don't know about the 270, but with my 180 at least I can just use the numbers on the keypad to dial a number when in the phone app. Sure, it starts looking for names that start with those letters, but eventually it realizes I'm typing a number and then works just as a phone. It works beautifully.
  19. #19  
    I emialed David Berlind about this. He wrote back: "Yes, but the layout of those number is very difficult to use (virtually the same problem as the blackberry. When I say "Phone keypad", I mean a reasonably sized phone keypad with the traditional phone-keypad layout. "

    I don't find them difficult to use and I have pretty big hands. At this point I cant look away when I'm pressing the keys though.
    Felipe
    On the road to 5,000 posts
    Life is what happens between Firmware releases.
  20. #20  
    Yeah I think a phone keypad would be a great thing to have, if it didn't come with extra heft. However, I can't see that happening.

    Hm..... Looking at my 180, it seems like there are 10 "big" buttons at the bottom of the unit. The four application buttons, the two scrollers, the shift, space, 0 (okay, not big) and command. Could those be used as "large" numbers to dial? I mean if someone really wanted bigger keys? As I said, I'm fine with the smaller keys. Indeed, I can do it w/o looking, which is the threshold for, in my book, being as easy as a real phone.
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