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  1. #41  
    Originally posted by Toby
    You cared enough to ask.
    And that was the extent of my concern.
    What's their mission?
    To make money.
    Entourage is already bundled with Office, though. Again, it doesn't pay off unless there are enough people buying Office specifically to use Entourage with a Palm.
    Or, Palm syncronization is the camel the breaks the camel's back. I can see people using Appleworks (esp. if it came with the computer - imac & ibook) with Palm Desktop that decides to switch to Office X.
    Personally, I find it odder that their other software is as bad as it is if Office X is as good as people claim.
    As I understand it, the divisions are in competition to outdo each other. And MS's Mac software has been quite good for some time. As I mentioned, the Palm conduit doesn't hurt their legal case, but I think it'd have been released anyway.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  2. #42  
    Originally posted by ****-richardson
    And that was the extent of my concern.
    Suuuuurre it was.
    To make money.
    Then they picked a bad way of going about it.
    Or, Palm syncronization is the camel the breaks the camel's back. I can see people using Appleworks (esp. if it came with the computer - imac & ibook) with Palm Desktop that decides to switch to Office X. [...]
    But do you have any evidence (even anecdotal) that such a person (nevertheless a significant number) exists?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  3. #43  
    Originally posted by Toby
    Suuuuurre it was.
    You've become very ambitious! First you try to argue the motivation of the masses, now you try to discredit mine! I don't think I could do it. Good luck to you.

    Just an idea: if my concern extended further, wouldn't that warrant action? Or am I just sitting here burning with desire for those numbers?
    Then they picked a bad way of going about it.
    Actually, I thought handera was doing rather well. Do you have any financial figures?
    But do you have any evidence (even anecdotal) that such a person (nevertheless a significant number) exists?
    No more than you have evidence they don't.
    Last edited by dick-richardson; 06/12/2002 at 06:41 PM.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  4.    #44  
    Apples and oranges. What's their mission? They're pushing their engineering abilities. Occasionally, they have to show they've still got the stuff (18 months seems to be their rough window).
    Is that any different that Microsoft making good software just to show they've still got the stuff?

    Entourage is already bundled with Office, though. Again, it doesn't pay off unless there are enough people buying Office specifically to use Entourage with a Palm.
    Keep in mind that it is quite possible that the actual conduit was built in a week by one employee...I doubt they put a ton of money into it.

    Personally, I find it odder that their other software is as bad as it is if Office X is as good as people claim.
    Are you referring ot the PC Software? Remember, the Mac group has nothing to do with the PC group. They are an autonomous group.
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  5. #45  
    Originally posted by ****-richardson
    You've become very ambitious! First you try to argue the motivation of the masses, now you try to discredit mine! I don't think I could do it. Good luck to you.
    Did you have your sense of humor surgically removed? Was it painful?
    Just an idea: if my concern extended further, wouldn't that warrant action? Or am I just sitting here burning with desire for those numbers?
    I've no idea, but I'd hope not.
    Actually, I thought handera was doing rather well. Do you have any financial figures?
    I'm sure they're doing well enough to still be in business, but the Palm hardware marketspace seems pretty tough to make a profit in. I'm sure the main reason they've managed to not lose their shirts is that they spend next to nothing on much of anything other than R&D (and they seem to have enough expertise to be able to do that with a small team or maybe even an individual or two).
    No more than you have evidence they don't.
    I didn't assert that such a person existed, though. Microsoft's corporate history makes my theory plausible. What makes yours?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  6. #46  
    Originally posted by homer
    Is that any different that Microsoft making good software just to show they've still got the stuff?
    Different as apples and oranges. Handera needs to keep up the business they have to stay in business. Microsoft could produce total crap (some would argue they already do) and they would still do just fine for at least a few years through sheer momentum (IBM is still going, aren't they?).
    Keep in mind that it is quite possible that the actual conduit was built in a week by one employee...I doubt they put a ton of money into it.
    I doubt they did either, but even still, they'd have to prioritize their resources.
    Are you referring ot the PC Software? Remember, the Mac group has nothing to do with the PC group. They are an autonomous group.
    Doesn't matter. The same management directs both of them.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  7. #47  
    Originally posted by Toby
    Did you have your sense of humor surgically removed? Was it painful?
    I don't remember.
    I've no idea, but I'd hope not.
    WELL I AM!
    I'm sure they're doing well enough to still be in business, but the Palm hardware marketspace seems pretty tough to make a profit in. I'm sure the main reason they've managed to not lose their shirts is that they spend next to nothing on much of anything other than R&D (and they seem to have enough expertise to be able to do that with a small team or maybe even an individual or two).
    As you mentioned previously, I think their main source of income is consulting, which has a very high profitability margin. I'm sure they're not making huge amounts of dollars on their pda's, but I'm also sure that it's making enough to warrant their attention.
    I didn't assert that such a person existed, though. Microsoft's corporate history makes my theory plausible. What makes yours?
    Microsoft's corporate history with a different take on their motivations. They've been nothing but ruthless with their competition; it's how they see their customers where we differ.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  8. #48  
    Originally posted by ****-richardson
    As you mentioned previously, I think their main source of income is consulting, which has a very high profitability margin. I'm sure they're not making huge amounts of dollars on their pda's, but I'm also sure that it's making enough to warrant their attention.
    I'd think if it was making much money, they'd look into expanding their line quicker.
    Microsoft's corporate history with a different take on their motivations.
    Or more a different idea of what a pure business decision motivator is.
    They've been nothing but ruthless with their competition; it's how they see their customers where we differ.
    Do we? I said I think they bend over backwards for their customers if it'll increase sales for a large institution (historically even at the expense of the whole customer base). That's the catch, though. They'll add a feature to an existing product usually _only_ to drive sales. Big Customer requests Feature X. Microsoft integrates Feature X into Version Z of Product, spurring Big Customer to buy many copies of Version Z of Product. Microsoft has _rarely_ added features (read: I'd be surprised to find one example) to an existing product unless it was to cover up a gross deficiency (read: security hole) in a product, drive new sales of that product, or in recent times to try and avoid political (read: legal, political, public relations, etc.) fallout.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  9. #49  
    Originally posted by Toby
    I'd think if it was making much money, they'd look into expanding their line quicker.
    I'd think if their bread and butter were pda sales, they'd look into expanding their line quicker.
    They'll add a feature to an existing product usually _only_ to drive sales.
    Or to make themselves look better. I say they're making themselves look good to the consumer (due, in part, to the tarnishing they've been getting from the JD). You appear to say they're making themselves look good to the JD. I don't think MS gives a damn about the JD, as long as consumers are dropping money into their pocket.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  10. #50  
    Originally posted by ****-richardson
    I'd think if their bread and butter were pda sales, they'd look into expanding their line quicker.
    But my point is that obviously they don't make much money off pda sales, so it couldn't be their bread and butter. The occasional PDA is going to showcase their engineering skills to generate more business _in_ their bread and butter. It's basically a way to say, "here's what we can do".
    Or to make themselves look better.
    I don't think we agree there. I think Microsoft while sometimes driven by ego internally is rarely that irrational in making business decisions.
    I say they're making themselves look good to the consumer (due, in part, to the tarnishing they've been getting from the JD). You appear to say they're making themselves look good to the JD. I don't think MS gives a damn about the JD, as long as consumers are dropping money into their pocket.
    I don't think they care about the JD for the most part. They only care in so much as the likelihood of real consequences (which their current consent decree with the JD doesn't possess). That probably won't happen without public pressure and support, so no, I'm not saying at all what you think I am.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  11.    #51  
    I don't think MS gives a damn about the JD, as long as consumers are dropping money into their pocket.
    Agreed. Microsoft is bigger than the JD.

    If and when the JD actually penalizes them, MS will either decide it's no big deal and do it, or say 'screw you' and head up to Vancouver.
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  12. #52  
    Originally posted by Toby
    But my point is that obviously they don't make much money off pda sales, so it couldn't be their bread and butter. The occasional PDA is going to showcase their engineering skills to generate more business _in_ their bread and butter. It's basically a way to say, "here's what we can do".
    I don't think they'd do so if it wasn't, at the very least, going to pay for itself.
    I don't think we agree there. I think Microsoft while sometimes driven by ego internally is rarely that irrational in making business decisions.
    I don't think it's irrational at all. People need to feel good about paying a good chunk of money for 1's and 0's. Looking good is their advertising.
    ...They only care in so much as the likelihood of real consequences...
    I had a pithy response that homer pre-paraphrased.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  13. #53  
    Originally posted by ****-richardson
    I don't think they'd do so if it wasn't, at the very least, going to pay for itself.
    I agree, hence their wanting a minimum order. Aren't you getting dizzy yet?
    I don't think it's irrational at all. People need to feel good about paying a good chunk of money for 1's and 0's. Looking good is their advertising. [...]
    Which is irrelevant on sales one already has.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  14. #54  
    Originally posted by Toby
    I agree, hence their wanting a minimum order. Aren't you getting dizzy yet?
    Now that you mention it...
    Which is irrelevant on sales one already has.
    Not by any means. There's only so many people to buy software once (granted, it makes a much larger difference in a town of 25000 than it would to MS).
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  15. #55  
    It appears that all may not be as rosy in Office for Mac land as some might believe. Apparently Microsoft is feeling neglected...
    http://news.com.com/2100-1040-943859.html
    http://www.wininformant.com/Articles...rticleID=25871
    ...and I was _extremely_ generous with 50,000-100,000 Office X + Entourage + Palm users. We're talking more in the area of 15,000 apparently.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  16.    #56  
    From the news.com article: "Microsoft, for example, was instrumental in helping Apple resolve problems with Mac OS X, the next-generation version of the Macintosh operating system released in March 2001."

    I never heard that before. Anyone know what they are talking about? (Granted, News.com is not the most reliable of news sources...)

    "But after the turn of year, Microsoft began looking more closely at how Apple marketed OS X 10.1, complaining the Mac maker failed to put out enough marketing dollars to drive adoption of the new operating system."

    That's typical microsoft. Not that it's wrong, of course, but it's somewhat predictable that Microsoft would be upset that Apple isn't pushing enough effort into Marketing. And that's really what makes the two companies different. Microsoft markets first, then makes product, Apple, the opposite. Both are very valid for different reason.

    We're talking more in the area of 15,000 apparently.
    How are you figuring that?

    "Apple's decision, for example, to include the iChat instant messenger program with Mac OS X 10.2 that connects to AOL's Instant Messenger network caught Microsoft executives by surprise, sources said."

    Yea...I really prefer MSN IM...a much better product, IMHO.

    "Another part of the problem lies in Apple's recent "switchers" marketing to woo PC users to the Mac."

    Yea...I think that's Job's being arrogant. The commercials are pretty embarrasing.
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  17. #57  
    Originally posted by homer
    [...] I never heard that before. Anyone know what they are talking about? (Granted, News.com is not the most reliable of news sources...)
    I keep hearing people say this, but I've never seen any examples of their gross innaccuracy (well, no more than other sources _including_ print media).
    That's typical microsoft.
    I thought the MacBU was independent, though, and not subject to the same things as the rest of Microsoft?
    Not that it's wrong, of course, but it's somewhat predictable that Microsoft would be upset that Apple isn't pushing enough effort into Marketing. And that's really what makes the two companies different. Microsoft markets first, then makes product, Apple, the opposite. Both are very valid for different reason.
    "I love you...you love me..."
    How are you figuring that? [...]
    Using the same percentages as before, but adjusting to 300,000 copies of Office instead of the overly generous 1-2 million. If you have hard numbers on the number of people with Palms _and_ Office X and that want to sync with Entourage, I'd be happy to see them.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
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