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  1. waldo15's Avatar
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    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by cavingjan View Post
    How do you define pushing it to the limit?
    This is how I believe you push the device to its maximum limits (including PalmOS limitations). And you may realize the scenario is not that far-fetched:

    Say you have a 700p, BT headset paired, unlimited data access.

    - You are waiting in a room, maybe doctor's appointment?You fire up Ptunes, play music in the background (locally from your SD card)
    - Start browsing the web
    - Hit a website that requires multimedia capabilities (a video sample? youtube?). Kinoma launches. Hopefully Ptunes stops gracefully
    - While the video is playing, you get a phone call, an MP3 ringtone goes off. You recognize it immediately, is from your friend. You answer it and it goes to your BT headset, your buddies invite you to gather in a bar later that day somewhere you are not familiar with.
    - You get the bar's address from the web
    - Launch Google maps and locate the place.
    - There's time before you meet your posse, so you decide to stop by Fry's to check what they have. You find a computer case you like, but you are not sure if the price they advertise is the best you can get.
    - You launch Newegg. But Newegg is not Blazer-friendly. No problem, you have set up PalmVNC to remotely access your XP machine. You launch PalmVNC and now your phone becomes a remote-controller XP machine so with full IE you can check that Newegg's price is comparable to Fry's. You got yourself a deal.

    - You then get an email alert (since you set up your email client to check periodically mails) and oh surprise, it's from Palm ... they want you to stop by their offices so they can take a closer look at your 700p that was able to achieve all of the above without freezing/stuttering/rebooting; since you know, Verizon and Sprint would love to ship those units to customers and stop bleeding money on 700p support ...

    I have experienced all of the above (minus the wacky Palm email) and in all instances, there's always a bug that shows up. Heck, doing nothing but using Blazer only has generated a fair share of resets. You cannot hope for PalmOS to handle all of the above multitasking without major hiccups, it's just not made for that. Yes, I did not mention many other background apps that run in my 700p (PowerHero, Technician, Butler are good examples) so it is hard to depict the full picture without checking the user's individual apps.

    Perhaps I am missing something, but this is what I think is pushing the boundaries of what the 700p or any other PalmOS phone can do.
    Ode to the Treo Pro: you had to look so good, you had to be HTC in disguise...
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by waldo15 View Post
    This is how I believe you push the device to its maximum limits (including PalmOS limitations). And you may realize the scenario is not that far-fetched:

    Say you have a 700p, BT headset paired, unlimited data access.

    - You are waiting in a room, maybe doctor's appointment?You fire up Ptunes, play music in the background (locally from your SD card)
    - Start browsing the web
    - Hit a website that requires multimedia capabilities (a video sample? youtube?). Kinoma launches. Hopefully Ptunes stops gracefully
    - While the video is playing, you get a phone call, an MP3 ringtone goes off. You recognize it immediately, is from your friend. You answer it and it goes to your BT headset, your buddies invite you to gather in a bar later that day somewhere you are not familiar with.
    - You get the bar's address from the web
    - Launch Google maps and locate the place.
    - There's time before you meet your posse, so you decide to stop by Fry's to check what they have. You find a computer case you like, but you are not sure if the price they advertise is the best you can get.
    - You launch Newegg. But Newegg is not Blazer-friendly. No problem, you have set up PalmVNC to remotely access your XP machine. You launch PalmVNC and now your phone becomes a remote-controller XP machine so with full IE you can check that Newegg's price is comparable to Fry's. You got yourself a deal.
    - You then get an email alert (since you set up your email client to check periodically mails) and oh surprise, it's from Palm ... they want you to stop by their offices so they can take a closer look at your 700p that was able to achieve all of the above without freezing/stuttering/rebooting; since you know, Verizon and Sprint would love to ship those units to customers and stop bleeding money on 700p support ...
    This used to happen to me like four times a day but has stopped since getting a Centro. Seriously, while that scenario may be a bit extreme, I think we have all seen frequent crashes from less activity. On the plus side, the Centro's seem very solid in comparison and I can do things on it that my Blackberry either cannot or cannot do easily.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by waldo15 View Post
    This is how I believe you push the device to its maximum limits (including PalmOS limitations). And you may realize the scenario is not that far-fetched:

    Say you have a 700p, BT headset paired, unlimited data access.

    - You are waiting in a room, maybe doctor's appointment?You fire up Ptunes, play music in the background (locally from your SD card)
    - Start browsing the web
    - Hit a website that requires multimedia capabilities (a video sample? youtube?). Kinoma launches. Hopefully Ptunes stops gracefully
    - While the video is playing, you get a phone call, an MP3 ringtone goes off. You recognize it immediately, is from your friend. You answer it and it goes to your BT headset, your buddies invite you to gather in a bar later that day somewhere you are not familiar with.
    - You get the bar's address from the web
    - Launch Google maps and locate the place.
    - There's time before you meet your posse, so you decide to stop by Fry's to check what they have. You find a computer case you like, but you are not sure if the price they advertise is the best you can get.
    - You launch Newegg. But Newegg is not Blazer-friendly. No problem, you have set up PalmVNC to remotely access your XP machine. You launch PalmVNC and now your phone becomes a remote-controller XP machine so with full IE you can check that Newegg's price is comparable to Fry's. You got yourself a deal.

    - You then get an email alert (since you set up your email client to check periodically mails) and oh surprise, it's from Palm ... they want you to stop by their offices so they can take a closer look at your 700p that was able to achieve all of the above without freezing/stuttering/rebooting; since you know, Verizon and Sprint would love to ship those units to customers and stop bleeding money on 700p support ...

    I have experienced all of the above (minus the wacky Palm email) and in all instances, there's always a bug that shows up. Heck, doing nothing but using Blazer only has generated a fair share of resets. You cannot hope for PalmOS to handle all of the above multitasking without major hiccups, it's just not made for that. Yes, I did not mention many other background apps that run in my 700p (PowerHero, Technician, Butler are good examples) so it is hard to depict the full picture without checking the user's individual apps.

    Perhaps I am missing something, but this is what I think is pushing the boundaries of what the 700p or any other PalmOS phone can do.
    Okay, speaking as a Centro owner only, but you are generalizing to all Palm devices:

    You're pushing the boundaries, and...expect them not to be there. You say that "there's always a bug that shows up", while using a bunch of 3rd party hacks that run in the background. Are these bugs or you doing wacky stuff with your phone?

    You will be hard pressed to find anything, within normal usage, that would reset the Centro.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  4. Leke's Avatar
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    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by waldo15 View Post
    This is how I believe you push the device to its maximum limits (including PalmOS limitations). And you may realize the scenario is not that far-fetched:

    Say you have a 700p, BT headset paired, unlimited data access.

    - You are waiting in a room, maybe doctor's appointment?You fire up Ptunes, play music in the background (locally from your SD card)
    - Start browsing the web
    - Hit a website that requires multimedia capabilities (a video sample? youtube?). Kinoma launches. Hopefully Ptunes stops gracefully
    - While the video is playing, you get a phone call, an MP3 ringtone goes off. You recognize it immediately, is from your friend. You answer it and it goes to your BT headset, your buddies invite you to gather in a bar later that day somewhere you are not familiar with.
    - You get the bar's address from the web
    - Launch Google maps and locate the place.
    - There's time before you meet your posse, so you decide to stop by Fry's to check what they have. You find a computer case you like, but you are not sure if the price they advertise is the best you can get.
    - You launch Newegg. But Newegg is not Blazer-friendly. No problem, you have set up PalmVNC to remotely access your XP machine. You launch PalmVNC and now your phone becomes a remote-controller XP machine so with full IE you can check that Newegg's price is comparable to Fry's. You got yourself a deal.

    - You then get an email alert (since you set up your email client to check periodically mails) and oh surprise, it's from Palm ... they want you to stop by their offices so they can take a closer look at your 700p that was able to achieve all of the above without freezing/stuttering/rebooting; since you know, Verizon and Sprint would love to ship those units to customers and stop bleeding money on 700p support ...

    I have experienced all of the above (minus the wacky Palm email) and in all instances, there's always a bug that shows up. Heck, doing nothing but using Blazer only has generated a fair share of resets. You cannot hope for PalmOS to handle all of the above multitasking without major hiccups, it's just not made for that. Yes, I did not mention many other background apps that run in my 700p (PowerHero, Technician, Butler are good examples) so it is hard to depict the full picture without checking the user's individual apps.

    Perhaps I am missing something, but this is what I think is pushing the boundaries of what the 700p or any other PalmOS phone can do.
    Have you checked for the most updated version of some of theses appz? I make sure even if I use the auto update or manual update to check their website or browse forums to see if I have the most updated version of software on my device.

    You never know the qwerky bugs may have a fix on the newest updates. Not sure what else to say, I can do all the things your saying without hiccups..
  5. dwman's Avatar
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    #25  
    I'm not far from being done with Palm. My 755p worked great in the beginning, but the Palm OS reared it's ugly head and started resting/crashing left and right. I'm being patient for now, but my contract expires next month....right around the time iPhone 2.0 is supposed to be introduced. I'll give it a good look before plunking down $$$, but with EAS being added, it's mighty tempting.
  6. waldo15's Avatar
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    #26  
    Appreciatte the feedback. Just so you rest your minds, yes all of the apps have been patched to the latest version, including PalmOS and latest 700p ROM.

    I feel the need to generalize as the PalmOS running in the 700p is the exact same version running in the other Treos, moreover when the underpinnings are almost a carbon copy. And in all fairness the scenario I depicted is very in line with what anybody (poweruser or not) would like to do with their devices.

    I'll accept that I am on the edge as a power user goes, meaning I am a tech professional that knows the limits and power of tech and uses it as far as it can go. However, my issue with tech (any tech) is when the very basic premise that makes a gadget worthy does not work. In this case, when I get a phone that claims to give a nice mobile Internet experience and it simply doesn't work reliably. That is an issue.

    This is a 700p forum, however I know you are reading Centro users, be confident and do not be affraid to push the comfort zone in your device. It may break, it may not; but the experience will let you decide what's important to you and perhaps open your mind to the world of advanced smartphones, even more to the world of advanced features your phone promises to deliver. Cop-out is not an option now that you have read what your device is capable of (albeit in a crippled manner)
    Ode to the Treo Pro: you had to look so good, you had to be HTC in disguise...
  7. Leke's Avatar
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    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by waldo15 View Post
    Appreciatte the feedback. Just so you rest your minds, yes all of the apps have been patched to the latest version, including PalmOS and latest 700p ROM.

    I feel the need to generalize as the PalmOS running in the 700p is the exact same version running in the other Treos, moreover when the underpinnings are almost a carbon copy. And in all fairness the scenario I depicted is very in line with what anybody (poweruser or not) would like to do with their devices.

    I'll accept that I am on the edge as a power user goes, meaning I am a tech professional that knows the limits and power of tech and uses it as far as it can go. However, my issue with tech (any tech) is when the very basic premise that makes a gadget worthy does not work. In this case, when I get a phone that claims to give a nice mobile Internet experience and it simply doesn't work reliably. That is an issue.

    This is a 700p forum, however I know you are reading Centro users, be confident and do not be affraid to push the comfort zone in your device. It may break, it may not; but the experience will let you decide what's important to you and perhaps open your mind to the world of advanced smartphones, even more to the world of advanced features your phone promises to deliver. Cop-out is not an option now that you have read what your device is capable of (albeit in a crippled manner)

    I hear ya! My thing is it appears the 700P have these capabilities, but why does it take 3rd party appz to use them. For example:

    1. Increase the volume-Volume care
    2. Enhance picture/photo quality-Photo HQ
    3. File manager-filez/resco explorer

    The list goes on and on...
  8. waldo15's Avatar
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    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Leke View Post
    I hear ya! My thing is it appears the 700P have these capabilities, but why does it take 3rd party appz to use them. For example:

    1. Increase the volume-Volume care
    2. Enhance picture/photo quality-Photo HQ
    3. File manager-filez/resco explorer

    The list goes on and on...
    This may well be a direct criticism on PalmOS, not so much on the 700p itself. Indeed one wonders why Palm does not include such advanced features in the PalmOS and yet relies on the 3rd party apps to provide such basic functions as File management or advanced power management (dimming/turning off the screen was never included!)... oh, but if something goes wrong then Palm is fast in pointing fingers at the 3rd party providers and then walk away
    Ode to the Treo Pro: you had to look so good, you had to be HTC in disguise...
  9. #29  
    I am afraid that after my 4th 700p-755p replacement, I gave up. I too went over to the dark side(Mogul) Maybe the new linux OS will turn out okay, but Garnet is garbage.
    Matty
  10. #30  
    Waldo, some of the "advanced features" one person wants are not among the advanced features the other guy wants. For instance, WIFI - I could care less. Some go loopy over it not being available, I do not care. There are bunches of apps on the device I have no use for and would be perfectly happy with the ability to select my applications of choice and place 'em in ROM with a stable application. In other words, a bare-bones device is what I want.

    Ben
  11. waldo15's Avatar
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    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Waldo, some of the "advanced features" one person wants are not among the advanced features the other guy wants. For instance, WIFI - I could care less. Some go loopy over it not being available, I do not care. There are bunches of apps on the device I have no use for and would be perfectly happy with the ability to select my applications of choice and place 'em in ROM with a stable application. In other words, a bare-bones device is what I want.

    Ben
    That is correct, and indeed is a very respectable approach. Where I take note is when people who do not need such features (WiFi being the more discussed feature over and over) try to convince everyone else that it is outrageous to get a device with those "extra pesky features"... cue intro the Centro lovers... despite the fact for those who want WiFi there may be legitimate needs for it. Case in point, that's the only way for iPhone users to get high-speed data in their devices.

    What perhaps is at hand is the discussion of the PalmOS and its ability to support or not a given feature. That is a key point that has kept the Treo stale and unable to catch up to the industry it actually created. When now you have devices out there that have much richer web browsing experiences, more solid BT stacks, support for GSM HSDPA, simultaneous voice and data, etc. you have to make a very strong case to buy a PalmOS device, be it a Treo or Centro, since they don't support any of the features that nowadays are somewhat standard.

    Granted is the fact that there is no comparison to the ease of use of any device that has PalmOS. There is value there and that's one of the reasons the Treo has survived for so long, but it can only go so far.

    In my original response regarding advanced features, I was not referring to the lack of certain features in the Treo, but rather the fact many new users (or sometimes old geezers like me) don't know that the phone can do something. And it can do it either by adding a 3rd paty app, or just by knowing how to correctly set certain things in the phone. Once you open your mind, leave the confort zone of running your device "as is" and start exploring options of things to do, a new world is open before your eyes. And once you go that distance, then you will realize how old the PalmOS is and consider it almost a miracle it can run so many diverse apps (but certainly not concurrently)
    Ode to the Treo Pro: you had to look so good, you had to be HTC in disguise...
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by waldo15 View Post
    And in all fairness the scenario I depicted is very in line with what anybody (poweruser or not) would like to do with their devices.

    I'll accept that I am on the edge as a power user goes, meaning I am a tech professional that knows the limits and power of tech and uses it as far as it can go. However, my issue with tech (any tech) is when the very basic premise that makes a gadget worthy does not work. In this case, when I get a phone that claims to give a nice mobile Internet experience and it simply doesn't work reliably. That is an issue.

    This is a 700p forum, however I know you are reading Centro users, be confident and do not be affraid to push the comfort zone in your device. It may break, it may not; but the experience will let you decide what's important to you and perhaps open your mind to the world of advanced smartphones, even more to the world of advanced features your phone promises to deliver. Cop-out is not an option now that you have read what your device is capable of (albeit in a crippled manner)
    What's a power user really? To me it's someone who knows how to use a device in the most optimal way. These devices are meant to simplify and streamline our lives, and as a result save us time and money, or conversely maximize our productivity and investment returns.

    Just tweaking the device and installing hacks to allow you to skin it and hear mp3 ringtones is a hobbyist pursuit. So you install Ringo and ZLauncher and Butler and what not, and it starts reseting, and you start troubleshooting and complaining about reliability. If you want to mess with the device then enjoy troubleshooting and problems and don't cast yourself as a disappointed "power user" since you are crippling your device with your actions.

    WRT your "challenge" list. Yes, pTunes will gracefully pause when you launch Kinoma. Yes, you can VNC over VPN, albeit the experience is hardly satisfying. Can't say about MP3 ringtones as I don't want to install Ringo. BT works. What else?

    I have various web resources and actions mapped to keys as favorites. I have calling cards mapped as favorites. I download my favorite magazine in audio and listen to it while commuting, I can do bank transactions in a pinch, stream podcasts and internet radio, use it instead of my iPod, view video presentations, manage my finances and priorities. There are days I don't even switch on my PC because I'm already done with stuff when I walk through the door. All this without any resets, it just works. My Centro is a miracle device, I tell ya
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  13. waldo15's Avatar
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    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    What's a power user really? To me it's someone who knows how to use a device in the most optimal way. These devices are meant to simplify and streamline our lives, and as a result save us time and money, or conversely maximize our productivity and investment returns.

    Just tweaking the device and installing hacks to allow you to skin it and hear mp3 ringtones is a hobbyist pursuit. So you install Ringo and ZLauncher and Butler and what not, and it starts reseting, and you start troubleshooting and complaining about reliability. If you want to mess with the device then enjoy troubleshooting and problems and don't cast yourself as a disappointed "power user" since you are crippling your device with your actions.

    WRT your "challenge" list. Yes, pTunes will gracefully pause when you launch Kinoma. Yes, you can VNC over VPN, albeit the experience is hardly satisfying. Can't say about MP3 ringtones as I don't want to install Ringo. BT works. What else?

    I have various web resources and actions mapped to keys as favorites. I have calling cards mapped as favorites. I download my favorite magazine in audio and listen to it while commuting, I can do bank transactions in a pinch, stream podcasts and internet radio, use it instead of my iPod, view video presentations, manage my finances and priorities. There are days I don't even switch on my PC because I'm already done with stuff when I walk through the door. All this without any resets, it just works. My Centro is a miracle device, I tell ya
    It is in your post that you are indeed applying a double standard. You see, frst you call a power user just a hobbyist. If it boiled down to skinning the device, everyone would be a power user and moreover, using your device would be no harder than using a flip-phone. But then promptly show us that indeed, you are a power user since you utilize your device beyond its phone/calendar capabilities. Right there, you are making yourself a power user, not a hobbyist.

    I am aware that, by being a power user in the full extent of the definition, I should be expecting a level of complexity that could make the phone die. And yes, I am accepting the challenge and by that I already acknowledge the weakness of the platform. I know I have pushed the device beyond its reasonable limits and it breaks, and then it makes me learn of yet another limit in the technology and then I can assesst if I want to keep doing it or not.

    However, when the key features (and I cannot stress this enough) fail, than is when the Treo and the PalmOS shine as an example of old and, in the 700p case, an example of how bad a device can be. The phone breaks just by using the core features that Palm includes out of the box and, if logix and reason were to prevail, one would think they should have tested these core features before releasing this device.

    - Phone freezing while receiving/making phonecalls
    - Blazer causing resets
    - Treo not able to pair reliably with BT devices included in the compatibility list, namely the Treo BT headset (the old chubby one)
    - Unable to play music continously without it skipping/stuttering. The 700p was the first to include Ptunes in ROM.

    That right there comprises most of the issues the 700p suffered. Never in the mix is a 3rd app messing things up... even further, is thanks to 3rd party apps that you can actually utilize your device in the ways it should (reset doctor, FileZ, MP3 ringtone manager...)

    I challenge you to use the Centro beyond your described "hobbyist" usages, and then come back to share the experience. I challenge you to use your phone as a modem, to overclock it, to remotely access your desktop miles away from home, to Sling from it... go beyond the button-assignment task and you will then realize how much power is under the tinny Centro hood. Because right now, you are barely getting a return for your $99 investment if the only things you do are the button mapping and web browsing...
    Ode to the Treo Pro: you had to look so good, you had to be HTC in disguise...
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by waldo15 View Post
    I am aware that, by being a power user in the full extent of the definition, I should be expecting a level of complexity that could make the phone die. And yes, I am accepting the challenge and by that I already acknowledge the weakness of the platform. I know I have pushed the device beyond its reasonable limits and it breaks, and then it makes me learn of yet another limit in the technology and then I can assesst if I want to keep doing it or not.
    I'm saying that you have little to complain about the platform's weakness if you choose the hack it. Or at least, your complaints are applicable in a scope that's irrelevant to real world users. But you leverage these complaints against the device in general.

    However, when the key features (and I cannot stress this enough) fail, than is when the Treo and the PalmOS shine as an example of old and, in the 700p case, an example of how bad a device can be. The phone breaks just by using the core features that Palm includes out of the box and, if logix and reason were to prevail, one would think they should have tested these core features before releasing this device.

    - Phone freezing while receiving/making phonecalls
    - Blazer causing resets
    - Treo not able to pair reliably with BT devices included in the compatibility list, namely the Treo BT headset (the old chubby one)
    - Unable to play music continously without it skipping/stuttering. The 700p was the first to include Ptunes in ROM.

    That right there comprises most of the issues the 700p suffered. Never in the mix is a 3rd app messing things up... even further, is thanks to 3rd party apps that you can actually utilize your device in the ways it should (reset doctor, FileZ, MP3 ringtone manager...)
    The Centro does not suffer from these problems. It doesn't need a reset doctor, and I bet your MP3 ringer resets your device when you receive a call, thank yourself for this. I know, you are discussing your 700p, but you keep extrapolating from it to the present Centro.
    I challenge you to use the Centro beyond your described "hobbyist" usages, and then come back to share the experience. I challenge you to use your phone as a modem, to overclock it, to remotely access your desktop miles away from home, to Sling from it... go beyond the button-assignment task and you will then realize how much power is under the tinny Centro hood. Because right now, you are barely getting a return for your $99 investment if the only things you do are the button mapping and web browsing...
    I tried to point out that I don't use it as a hobbyist. I don't have a single hack installed. I have used it as a modem, I have used VNC over VPN to access my work computer, SSH etc., I don't have Sling as I don't watch much TV but I use Kinoma for video streaming and playback.

    My point, again, is that the measure of the device is when it is used in its optimal way and not how tolerant it is to overclocking, skinning etc. If you combine everything I listed, and I didn't even mention using it with Exchange MS Push, the great IM and SMS clients, then I can't really think of comparable devices out there.

    Oh, and as I mentioned before, my Centro was free
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  15. Leke's Avatar
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    #35  
    I guess we can't complain too much. With any device there will always be better versions than the ones built in or pre-installed. But waldo is right, this device CANNOT multitask, and it does get quite frustrating waiting a while to end each program and access the next.

    I was quite upset when the Centro came out, it was no better than the 700 just different form factor. That in itself told me Palm does not care about the consumers and bringing out products we request. I find it hard to believe that they have no one on staff that read these forums and hear our concerns.

    Wi-Fi is a concern for many users that EvDo cannot fufill. How hard is it for Palm to come out with a device with GPS, wi-fi and EvDo. If I'm to pay $400-500 for a device I expect it to do certain functions w/o resets and lag.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by Leke View Post
    I guess we can't complain too much. With any device there will always be better versions than the ones built in or pre-installed. But waldo is right, this device CANNOT multitask, and it does get quite frustrating waiting a while to end each program and access the next.

    I was quite upset when the Centro came out, it was no better than the 700 just different form factor. That in itself told me Palm does not care about the consumers and bringing out products we request. I find it hard to believe that they have no one on staff that read these forums and hear our concerns.

    Wi-Fi is a concern for many users that EvDo cannot fufill. How hard is it for Palm to come out with a device with GPS, wi-fi and EvDo. If I'm to pay $400-500 for a device I expect it to do certain functions w/o resets and lag.
    I guess views also depend on whether one comes from the 650 or 700. Coming from the 650, EvDO is an enabler of many things I didn't bother to do with the 650. So in my mind, it is a substantial upgrade. I can see the frustration for 700p owners, although I wonder if it's just agitation for a new device and not a real need.

    I don't know what I would do with WiFi, it might be useful for GSM devices. I would like GPS though, it's another big enabler like EvDO. The Centro is priced just right for the upgrade it represents, you can't argue with that.

    I'm still hard pressed to find other devices that can match its capabilities, even if the OS is "stale". The technology is too immature and no manufacturer seems to have figure out a dream device. The iPhone is incredibly limited if you look beyond the shiny UI and it costs too much for what it does.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  17. waldo15's Avatar
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    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    I'm saying that you have little to complain about the platform's weakness if you choose the hack it. Or at least, your complaints are applicable in a scope that's irrelevant to real world users. But you leverage these complaints against the device in general.


    The Centro does not suffer from these problems. It doesn't need a reset doctor, and I bet your MP3 ringer resets your device when you receive a call, thank yourself for this. I know, you are discussing your 700p, but you keep extrapolating from it to the present Centro.

    I tried to point out that I don't use it as a hobbyist. I don't have a single hack installed. I have used it as a modem, I have used VNC over VPN to access my work computer, SSH etc., I don't have Sling as I don't watch much TV but I use Kinoma for video streaming and playback.

    My point, again, is that the measure of the device is when it is used in its optimal way and not how tolerant it is to overclocking, skinning etc. If you combine everything I listed, and I didn't even mention using it with Exchange MS Push, the great IM and SMS clients, then I can't really think of comparable devices out there.

    Oh, and as I mentioned before, my Centro was free
    I'm surprised you call them hacks. All of the activities come from software that runs in PalmOS natively, meaning you don't need to tweak registries or do fancy soft loops to get things running. Is just as much as calling Firefox a hack for Windows. And they are not always free. A hack is, by definition, an action for circumventing the original intent of a piece of SW/HW to make it do something that is either completely opposite to what the device originally was intended to do or something that you have to pay a premium in order to get access to those features. Perhaps that is the difference with the Centro? since you received it free you feel you are not entitled to those?

    Anyways, just don't play the easy card of calling them hacks. They are software that runs on top of an OS. Palm made a bussiness model out of them, in licensing and developer support. And they broke their model once they made platforms that could run either PalmOS and WM on the same hardware. Is no surprise that a few developers are already jumping ship and abandoning PalmOS support.

    Your centro does not have MP3 ringtone playback capabilities out of the box... current smartphones do. Out of the box. Last time I checked, ringtones are #1 driving revenues for cellphone operators (along with text messages) so it still beats me that Palm does not provide such support right off the bat. Maybe they rely on hacks from trusty software developers?

    What I am doing in the extrapolation (if it can even be called that) is that the Centro and the 700p are the same beast, one is more mature and one was the prototype but both run the exact same programs and hold the exact same functionality. Anyone running any of these devices and not finding the need to reset it is definitely not getting their money's worth. If you don't have the natural inclination to try those waters, I'd even put into question why you got a Centro when any other regular phone would have been sufficient for you.
    Ode to the Treo Pro: you had to look so good, you had to be HTC in disguise...
  18. waldo15's Avatar
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    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by sivan View Post
    I guess views also depend on whether one comes from the 650 or 700. Coming from the 650, EvDO is an enabler of many things I didn't bother to do with the 650. So in my mind, it is a substantial upgrade. I can see the frustration for 700p owners, although I wonder if it's just agitation for a new device and not a real need.

    I don't know what I would do with WiFi, it might be useful for GSM devices. I would like GPS though, it's another big enabler like EvDO. The Centro is priced just right for the upgrade it represents, you can't argue with that.

    I'm still hard pressed to find other devices that can match its capabilities, even if the OS is "stale". The technology is too immature and no manufacturer seems to have figure out a dream device. The iPhone is incredibly limited if you look beyond the shiny UI and it costs too much for what it does.
    Again, you are showing that you have a short technology sight. WiFi is important simply because is everywhere. Do you travel a lot? Do you travel internationally? There are many instances where the option of having WiFi becomes such a big plus that I can see why all other smartphones are now taking WiFi and making it as standard as a battery (sort of speak). Even further, getting EVDO/HSDPA costs you money, WiFi for the most part is free. An example: there are a few trials for WiFi access in an airplane... next time you are in a coas-to-coast flight with WiFi enabled, sitting next to somebody with a laptop or a WiFi capable phone you will perhaps see how the 7xxp/Centro is just not cutting it anymore. That is an extreme case perhaps but I am sure that those who want WiFi have a reason for it.

    I could go on listing devices that make the Centro and the 700p, in all aspects included ease of use, really look bad. just a handfull: HTC touch, Xperia X1, iPhone, Treo 500v...
    Ode to the Treo Pro: you had to look so good, you had to be HTC in disguise...
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by waldo15 View Post
    I'm surprised you call them hacks. All of the activities come from software that runs in PalmOS natively, meaning you don't need to tweak registries or do fancy soft loops to get things running. Is just as much as calling Firefox a hack for Windows. And they are not always free. A hack is, by definition, an action for circumventing the original intent of a piece of SW/HW to make it do something that is either completely opposite to what the device originally was intended to do or something that you have to pay a premium in order to get access to those features. Perhaps that is the difference with the Centro? since you received it free you feel you are not entitled to those?
    Okay, call them tweaks. I did not mean to evoke everything hacking stands for. It's the same story of the old Mac OS system extensions. We know that the main reset culprits on the devices are 3rd party tweaks to the way the device runs. Be it intercepting calls for MP3 ringtones, swallowing events, running in the background, etc.
    Anyways, just don't play the easy card of calling them hacks. They are software that runs on top of an OS. Palm made a bussiness model out of them, in licensing and developer support. And they broke their model once they made platforms that could run either PalmOS and WM on the same hardware. Is no surprise that a few developers are already jumping ship and abandoning PalmOS support.
    Maybe, but this is irrelevant to users. It's the same story as the old Mac OS extensions.
    Your centro does not have MP3 ringtone playback capabilities out of the box... current smartphones do. Out of the box. Last time I checked, ringtones are #1 driving revenues for cellphone operators (along with text messages) so it still beats me that Palm does not provide such support right off the bat. Maybe they rely on hacks from trusty software developers?
    Are the people who download ringtones using smartphones or feature phones? I personally don't care about this feature.
    What I am doing in the extrapolation (if it can even be called that) is that the Centro and the 700p are the same beast, one is more mature and one was the prototype but both run the exact same programs and hold the exact same functionality. Anyone running any of these devices and not finding the need to reset it is definitely not getting their money's worth. If you don't have the natural inclination to try those waters, I'd even put into question why you got a Centro when any other regular phone would have been sufficient for you.
    Are you kidding? I've been using PDAs forever, that's what the Centro is for me, with the added bonus great internet connectivity: web, multimedia, SMS, email, IM and integration with Exchange.
    Quote Originally Posted by waldo15 View Post
    Again, you are showing that you have a short technology sight. WiFi is important simply because is everywhere. Do you travel a lot? Do you travel internationally? There are many instances where the option of having WiFi becomes such a big plus that I can see why all other smartphones are now taking WiFi and making it as standard as a battery (sort of speak). Even further, getting EVDO/HSDPA costs you money, WiFi for the most part is free. An example: there are a few trials for WiFi access in an airplane... next time you are in a coas-to-coast flight with WiFi enabled, sitting next to somebody with a laptop or a WiFi capable phone you will perhaps see how the 7xxp/Centro is just not cutting it anymore. That is an extreme case perhaps but I am sure that those who want WiFi have a reason for it.
    If you have flat rate 3G, what do you need WiFi for? You are far more likely to have cellular connectivity than WiFi wherever you go. Need to get on the company network? Use VPN. The iPhone needs WiFi because it's on slow GSM and Apple wants to to tie it to their other products. Ask iPhone users where they do most of their browsing, they go and find a WiFi spot, and most of the time, it's at home. That's just sad.
    I could go on listing devices that make the Centro and the 700p, in all aspects included ease of use, really look bad. just a handfull: HTC touch, Xperia X1, iPhone, Treo 500v...
    As a package, none of them touches the Centro. Come on, the iPhone is not a good PDA, has barely useful internet connection and costs way too much. The rest are heavy and WM is slow, confusing and crashes. So they have WiFi and GPS, yes it would be nice to have GPS, but other than that it's no contest. Real world usage...Centro wins hands down.
    Palm Vx > Treo 650 > Centro > G1 > Pre > BlackBerry 9700
  20. #40  
    It's not hard to push practically any OS phone to the limit and induce problems. It's easy on WM as well. If you didn't see it, it's just because you don't have the use case to encounter it.

    Also, WiFi is hardly a "necessity", considering even current phones are released without it. Obviously there is a market (particularly in the US, where unlimited data is pretty common) for phones that do not include wifi out of the box. Otherwise the HTC Touch would be a failure...
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