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  1. ksom's Avatar
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    #21  
    I don't think any one technology can replace the other. Just like WM without touch screen is flawed, a touch without key board is also flawed. Because of this, I think Treo and Centro still have the right combination.

    Of course, including both technology means higher cost and some sacrifice on the device size. Just imagine a Centro without the keyboard, it could fit a 640x320 LCD on it. That would certainly make web browsing a lot more comfortable. But I would unlike to write this much on it without the keyboard.
    Palm V -> Treo 600 (lost) -> Treo 650 -> Centro -> Pre -> Photon
  2. #22  
    I wonder how the Sprint Touch would be with the PCM keyboard.

    I agree physical keybaords are nice, but after trying the PCM keyboard on other devices, I found it surprisingly usable.

    They tradeoff in form factor may be worth it.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by vga4life View Post
    HTC makes okay hardware but WM is for the birds, period. Good technology with a lousy interface is just as bad as the reverse.
    I disagree with such a sweeping opinion. POS, for some time, did a great job supporting the D-pad/5-way navigation, but I find that many 3rd-party Palm apps do not implement D-pad support properly, thus requiring the use of touch screen. There is also no context-sensitive, or soft keys. Lastly, there is no "back". While addressable via 3rd-party launchers, the "flat" native launcher is less efficient.

    WM has come a long way and most newer applications support 5-way without having to reach up for the touch screen. The interface/operating environment is more advanced and supports multi-tasking. The back button and soft keys makes navigation more pratical, especially with diverse applications.

    ---

    On to the subject of the Touch--HTC did include its own on-screen keyboard, using similar layout as BB's touch type (2 letters per key) and predictivie entry. Once manufactures include heptic feedback on the touch screens, it may come close to having an actual keyboards. The problem any WM on screen keyboard, however, is usability during text entry. The keyboard "pops up" in front of the appplication you are using and covers the lower part of the screen. The text you are entering does not "snap up" to the area where you can see, so if you are typing a SMS or some notes, once the text goes below the keypad, you are typing blind.

    ---

    WM Standard (was Smartphone) is less feature rich than WM Professional (used to be Pocket PC, used to be Windows CE). With 3rd party apps, WM Standard can do just about everything WM Pro can. WM Std devices, however, usually come with slower CPUs. I see the advantage of a touch screen for note taking (being able to draw something) and annotating pictures--take a picture and make notes on it.

    ---

    As far as I know, Touch Dual (there is no "II" designation) is only being released in Europe for now. The frequencies supported by the phone is GSM not GSM-NA (same w/ UMTS/HSDPA). The Dual comes either with a 12-key (numeric) or 20-key (QWERTY) keypad.
    -------Current Devices--------
    Nextel: Motorola i930, i880
    Sprint: AirPrime CDMA PCMCIA, Samsung A900M, M610, Sanyo 8400, DLX
    Cingular: SE S710a, Treo 650 Unlocked, 3125 "Startrek", Blackjack, Sync
    Verizon: Samsung SCH-i730 WM PPC, Treo 700w WM5 PPC, Sierra EVDO PCMCIA, Black Q

    BT headsets: Jabra BT110, 500, JX10 II, 350V; Motorola H700, H300, H605; Palm Treo; Plantronics Voyger 510, 640e, 650e; BlueAnt X3 Micro

    A2DP: Mot S9, HS820; Jabra BT8010
  4.    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by snovvman View Post
    The problem any WM on screen keyboard, however, is usability during text entry. The keyboard "pops up" in front of the appplication you are using and covers the lower part of the screen. The text you are entering does not "snap up" to the area where you can see, so if you are typing a SMS or some notes, once the text goes below the keypad, you are typing blind.
    Is there a Graffiti Anywhere for WM/Pro ? A stylus/Graffiti input that doesn't chew up a section of the screen at the bottom, traces your strokes as you input them, and "snaps up" the text into the right text field... Graffiti Anywhere is pretty good for what it does...
  5. #25  
    I do not have any experience with the "Touch" but I do have the Mogul and I can tell you that I have not been happy.
    First some background. Been using PDA's forever starting from Palm Pilot through Pocket pc, Window CE etc. On the phone side, all that change when I got the Treo 300. It's been Palm since with the 600, 650. I have been sitting out looking at the 700wx vs. the 755p. I actually went to Sprint with the intention of getting the 755 when I saw the Mogul. I "push" email was the final decision factor so I got the Mogul.
    The rich green screen menu and the sliding keyboard were cool but that lasted just a few days. Typically, when I get a new PDA I go online and buy as many of the add-on programs I can (I'll usually will end up not using 80% of them but I never learn). I had used the Windows Pocket PC for many years finally giving up to the multiple daily crashes; I just assumed that by now the Windows Mobile would be mature. I was shocked to find, first of all Microsoft has allowed the OS to be modified by the hardware manufacturers to the level that when you buy programs you have to be careful and make sure it will run on your device. Now all these programs that I envied being on the Palm side are still not available. Well, this is just the start. I also figured that with this much time MS would have really refined this OS. The number of taps I have to go through to get what I want is ridiculous. Someone mentioned WM multi-tasking ability vs. Palm. The problem with WM is when you think you are closing the program you're not. It's still on your desktop, so the negative is you are using power like crazy. If you're not careful your battery is gone. The battery life on the Mogul suck anyway barely making it thru the day. I have to be extra careful and go in and dump unwanted programs off the desktop or I'll be without a phone midday. I finally got the larger battery. This only gives 15% increase but adds an ugly 3/8" hump on the back. For such a little increase, you can see how desperate the situation is for more power. Well, bottom line the Mogul has not been a nice diversion.
    Problem list:
    • WM still freezes
    • Need to be extra careful on new programs. Programs in compatibility with other programs a big problem
    • Sliding keyboard robustness a problem. Not unnecessarily rough with device but keyboard is slightly chocked now.
    • No “quick” buttons to access frequent-use programs. I stumble to make an appointment with this darn thing
    • Battery management is a BIG problem
    • Ergonomic user interface is weak. You would think the engineers at HTC would have gotten a couple of Treos and studied them. Side buttons that you have to visually search for and press sometimes twice to activate. Menu buttons that change places within the same program

    To make matters worse, when I got the Mogul, I had a couple of 650’s (bought a replacement when I dunked one in a lake, amazingly after sitting in the drawer for a couple of months and drying out---it worked!). I gave one each to both of my kids. Now, I look with envy as they pass by with their Treos and I struggle with my Mogul. I wonder if I get the Centro, can I pass this Mogul onto my wife?
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by alanfujii View Post
    I wonder if I get the Centro, can I pass this Mogul onto my wife?
    Only if you're giving her divorce papers too, b/c that's pretty mean

    ps a lot of the Mogul's problems stem from too little RAM, something that a lot of other WM devices including the Touch wisely avoid.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  7. #27  
    I think it's annoying how people come into this thread just to say crap like:

    "no keyboard = no sale for moi

    enjoy yours!"

    What's the point? Who cares if you don't like it because there's no keyboard?

    Anyway, the touch is alot smaller in person than it looks in pictures. Next to the Centro, I was surprised at how "svelte" the touch really is.

    Also, if you miss PalmOS apps. too much in WM you could always install StyleTap (not every Palm app. will work, but many of them do). I can't believe there's still such ignorance here regarding Windows Mobile. It's not more or less stable than PalmOS. The stability of each OS really depends on what the user has installed / loaded onto the device and how they use it. Also, doesn't having multi-tasking allow one to be more efficient?
  8. #28  
    I think it's annoying how people come into this thread just to say crap like:
    to each his own. The Centro rocks! Buy one!
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by BCVP View Post
    I think it's annoying how people come into this thread just to say crap like:
    to each his own.
    Yeah, that too.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by alanfujii View Post
    I do not have any experience with the "Touch" but I do have the Mogul and I can tell you that I have not been happy.
    First some background. Been using PDA's forever starting from Palm Pilot through Pocket pc, Window CE etc. On the phone side, all that change when I got the Treo 300. It's been Palm since with the 600, 650. I have been sitting out looking at the 700wx vs. the 755p. I actually went to Sprint with the intention of getting the 755 when I saw the Mogul. I "push" email was the final decision factor so I got the Mogul.
    You should have done your homework. Check out the Mogul forum on Sprintusers. Nothing but complaints. On the other hand I have yet to see a single bad review of the Centro!
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by IsLNdbOi View Post
    I can't believe there's still such ignorance here regarding Windows Mobile. It's not more or less stable than PalmOS. The stability of each OS really depends on what the user has installed / loaded onto the device and how they use it. Also, doesn't having multi-tasking allow one to be more efficient?
    Sorry, sir, but NO.

    I had a Moto Q (Windows Mobile 5) before my current Centro, and I had multiple bugs out of the box. The phone froze up when simply ending a call with NO other software running in the background and no 3rd-party apps installed (I had to remove the battery several times). Sometimes, it would shut off at random, so when I thought it was in sleep mode, I was missing calls. If I didn't manually empty the IE cache every couple of days, the OS slowed to a crawl.

    Multi-tasking is great, true, but the only multi-tasking I need (Leaving IM on to receive new messages while running Ultimate Phone and my spiffy custom interface) is available on Centro. Other than that, I appreciate the Web browser actually closing and not snatching up all the memory when I'm done with it. The only crashes I've ever had with the Centro came when I played around with Opera Mini and Java. Otherwise, I haven't even had to do a soft reset ONCE.

    And there is a world of difference with battery life, too. With the Q, I was constantly running out of juice toward the end of the day, and Lord forbid if I ran out to hang with the fellas or play poker before throwing it on the charger. Now, when I get home with the Centro, even on super late/early morning jaunts, I almost always have at least 40-50 percent battery life, and this is with Treo Weather auto-updating every two hours, me checking my Gmail regularly, playing Sudoku, and regular phone calls.

    You can pin some of that on the crappiness of the Q hardware, but Windows Mobile was responsible for the lion's share of my problems, and it takes waaaay too many keypresses to get to the most important functions (on Standard. Professional's touchscreens shorten this somewhat).
  12. #32  
    Let me preface this email first by describing my profile so you’ll better access where I’m coming from. I would describe myself as a “gadget” user. Love all the new gadgets and have bought many, many devices through the years. But I’m not that technical, certainly not as technically competent as many of you are. I’m basically a user. Not an average user but probably the companies worst nightmare of a user (a user that will buy their product and stuff it with as many programs as he can get his fingers on). So I’m probably the worst case scenario of a product’s performance capabilities. So there’s my background, on to what this email is really about.

    The point I was making in my email was based on a user that was very familiar with Microsoft’s mobile OS attempts and had many of the products that ran on Pocket PC. I was a strong advocate for Pocket PC but eventually soured on the OS mainly because I would have daily crashes. I moved back to Palm when the Treo 300 came out. That was back – let’s see 2002! I have been extremely happy with the Treo series overall. But like any gadget freak began to get that “grass is greener on the other side” syndrome. Especially since the recent offerings from Palm have been micro improvements in the new releases. So I made to move back to the “dark” side with the Mogul. Yes, I should have done my homework better, but I’ve always been an early adopter and so it’s not unreasonable to me that a flurry of excellent reviews would cause me to pull the trigger. So after 5 years of being away from the Microsoft’s mobile system I was absolutely amazed to find a system that has progressed so little in all that time.

    1) That most egregious mistake is the multiple variations of versions depending on what phone you have. Now remember I’m the user that fits probably 1 – 3% of their target market and the rest of the market doesn’t care there’s a problems on add-on programs. But for me, sitting with a brand new device and searching the internet for programs to buy, it was to say at the very least a major disappointment. Then with the programs that are approved for your device you may run into a problem because they may conflict with other programs. Yes, there is probably a way to tweak them to work but I told you I’m not that technical. My point is that I rarely had this problem with the Palm OS and I can guarantee you that I have bought 40+ programs for the Palm.
    2) Then UI (user interface) is horrible. To do a simple appointment I must first turn the device on (physically turn on and off the device is necessary to conserve battery) and press 5 taps to get where I need to be. Treo was 2. To make a phone call to a main contact, I again must turn the device on then make 4 taps where I try to type at least the first three letters to get a decent pick list. The Treo allowed you to have quick key buttons for you’re more frequent need contacts. Rarely did I need to go more than a couple of taps to make a call. Now the HTC’s solution to the quick key is the voice command. I’ve never been a fan of voice command since I have found you need to duplicate the voice input as you did the sample. I find it gets the proper contact about 60% of the time. The problem with this is that it dials the number immediately. You have to be fast to stop it before the first ring because with caller ID you have a caller that calls back thinking you’re trying to reach them.
    3) Menu hierarchy is a pain. I know it's Microsoft (that's what my MAC business partner always says). I really don’t have a problem on the standard desktop. But on the PDA/phone it’s a pain because everything is too small to use your fingers, so you must pull out the stylus. I got around the Treo fairly well for the frequent things I needed without the stylus.
    4) Device freezing. It’s not daily but it frequent enough that I completely reset the phone and did not put back any of the programs I bought. I still have a problem at least once a week where I need to do a soft reset. My surprise is that after all these years I just assumed this would be a thing of the past.

    Now not every thing has been bad on the Mogul. The email has been great; I hated Treo’s Business Connection. The Bluetooth connectivity is very good. (Remember I had the 650). Surprisingly, I found I typed with fewer mistakes on the Treo vs. the sliding keyboard of the Mogul.

    Bottom line, I’m going to go back to the Treo. My only decision is which one 755p or Centro? What I learned is the grass is not greener on the other side. Palm really does have a very polished UI solution for the PDA/phone market. The real problem that exists is the market sees no change as getting old or Palm resting on its laurels. This is forcing Palm to move to a change that may not be the best way to go. (i.e. the Centro’s keyboard is too small). I hope in future releases they do not change things just for change sake.
  13. #33  
    sprint sales people will sell whatever they're told to sell. They'll outright lie to customers to manipulate them to buy the product on the promotion sheet from corporate.

    It's quite fun when you really know a product well and have all the facts so you can argue with tthem and make them fumble.
  14. #34  
    Remember they probably used to work in a computer store, electronics or car dealership. Oh what fun!
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