Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 117
  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by headcase View Post
    - I used to prefer the "phone-first" design of devices like the i500, but I quickly came to depend on the QWERTY keyboard of the Treos. Now when I pick up my old i500, I cringe at the thought of trying to type something out.
    Chronic SMS'er seem to type out msgs on a dialpad just fine, but I agree, I wouldn't try to type much on a dialpad myself... which is why I'm still an avid Graffiti'er... I actually still like Graffiti, call me crazy...

    As far as removable/replaceable batteries, I think that Apple made the right decision, to make the battery larger, sacrificing user-replacement. I very rarely swap the batteries of my devices and could live without that ability for, say, a 20-30% increase in capacity. Malatesta is right that that is a tradeoff. The Palm V made such a choice, as well as the iPod, and each were very popular devices that didn't really suffer much because of it. In fact I have Palm V's still working just fine after all these years...
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by ~Q~ View Post
    I really believe this device is going to sell. POS may be out of date for the power user, but it is still the easiest Smartphone OS out there to use. People are going to buy this thing for its size, ease of use, functionality and PRICE.

    It may only be a 755P in a new form factor, but show me where you can get a 755P for 100 bucks.

    Yes, I've previously hacked on this device, but I've since had some time to think about it and read the reviews. I think Palm is on to something. The only other smartphone out there that really competes with this thing is a Pearl and I think the Centro offers more than a Pearl.
    You are right. That is the only phone that truly competes. The rest are all different phones that are options.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    This isn't about Blackberries, Ollie. It's about the Centro. Start a new thread: BB vs Centro.

    ps no trade off, no sacrifice? Pearl doesn't have a qwerty KB...that is a sacrifice.
    you raised the point about "slim devices and removable batteries equating to some sort of sacrifice/tradeoff." did you not?

    the Pearl is small and that is why it has a suretype keyboard which many around here can manipulate just as easily as a qwerty. it has a small battery because it is a small device (less brick-like). it also happens to outlast many Treos out there. i consider that an advantage and not a sacrifice.

    Blackberry Pearl (AT&T), Apple 3G iPhone,
    owned and used: Treo 750 (WM5, Cingular)
    T680 unlocked (T-Mo), T700wx, T700w, T650, T600
    ppc6600, i730, htc mogul, BB Bold, Curve
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by oalvarez View Post
    ^ they just don't get it anymore. they (whomever they were) did at one time, but a long time ago that was.

    they have become an embarassment of a company in the tech world. first the T680/755 (no antenna, curved in sides) and now a further shaved down version of that phone. funny, really....
    They are the only company making a phone I definitely want to own right now. I am starting to get curious about BBs but not quite yet. Everything else is trash to me. I am also waiting for a really portable laptop that still has some power and key features that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Instant on would be nice also but I am not holding my breath. At some point there will be a company that can deliver the perfect smartphone and the perfect laptop. It hasn't happened yet and we all have to pick the closest thing to it that fits our needs. For me that is a 700w (700wx would be better of course). There are any phones coming out that I have heard of yet (except the GSM HP dealio) that seems to have everything I really want. I may have to switch to GSM when they come out but first I have to wait to see if it really looks like a graphing calculator. Until then touchscreen and keyboard are important. Push email is critical. Ability to create and edit office docs is key. GPS and remote desktop control are high on the list. I really love my 700w. Thank god for the embarrasment that is Palm!
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by BigTreo View Post
    They are the only company making a phone I definitely want to own right now.
    the problem is that there are less and less of your type these days.
    Blackberry Pearl (AT&T), Apple 3G iPhone,
    owned and used: Treo 750 (WM5, Cingular)
    T680 unlocked (T-Mo), T700wx, T700w, T650, T600
    ppc6600, i730, htc mogul, BB Bold, Curve
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    Chronic SMS'er seem to type out msgs on a dialpad just fine, but I agree, I wouldn't try to type much on a dialpad myself... which is why I'm still an avid Graffiti'er... I actually still like Graffiti, call me crazy...

    As far as removable/replaceable batteries, I think that Apple made the right decision, to make the battery larger, sacrificing user-replacement. I very rarely swap the batteries of my devices and could live without that ability for, say, a 20-30% increase in capacity. Malatesta is right that that is a tradeoff. The Palm V made such a choice, as well as the iPod, and each were very popular devices that didn't really suffer much because of it. In fact I have Palm V's still working just fine after all these years...
    And the 680 was the worst of both worlds, a replaceable battery with insufficient life.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by oalvarez View Post
    you raised the point about "slim devices and removable batteries equating to some sort of sacrifice/tradeoff." did you not?
    As clarified before, I was referencing POS and WM devices specifically. You are literally comparing apples to oranges.

    Find me another POS device with a super thin battery and you'll have a better comparison/argument. But comparing a GSM to CDMA device with a different OS?
    Quote Originally Posted by oalvarez View Post
    the Pearl is small and that is why it has a suretype keyboard which many around here can manipulate just as easily as a qwerty. it has a small battery because it is a small device (less brick-like). it also happens to outlast many Treos out there. i consider that an advantage and not a sacrifice.
    suretype ≠ full qwerty

    End of story, no debate. It's a different device type.

    It does not have "a small battery because it is small device" (nice circular logic there, btw) but b/c the OS is better optimized to make use of the battery. Same reason why you don't find WM devices with 900mah batteries.

    I stated before and I'll say it again: POS has not been updated in years so it is not as efficient on battery usage; WM is also not as efficient as it should be for power--BB OS and OS X are more efficient. Also CDMA/GSM networks have different requirements on battery consumption.

    But go ahead, put a 900mah battery in a POS or WM device and see what happens. Wouldn't that disprove what I said?
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    Fact is, devices with removal batteries that are super thin generally sacrifice on battery life in the end. That's the trade-off.
    The advantages you state are relevant, not objective. POS and BB OS do not equal each other in functionality e.g. POS has much more 3rd party apps than BB OS, including (for now) Slingbox.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 10/01/2007 at 10:31 PM.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    As stated before, I was referencing POS and WM devices specifically. You are literally comparing apples to oranges.

    Find me another POS device with a super thin battery and you'll have a better comparison/argument. But comparing a GSM to CDMA device with a different OS?

    suretype ≠ full qwerty

    End of story, no debate. It's a different device type.

    It does not have "a small battery because it is small device" (nice circular logic there, btw) but b/c the OS is better optimized to make use of the battery. Same reason why you don't find WM devices with 900mah batteries.

    I stated before and I'll say it again: POS has not been updated in years so it is not as efficient on battery usage; WM is also not as efficient as it should be for power--BB OS and OS X are more efficient. Also CDMA/GSM networks have different requirements on battery consumption.

    But go ahead, put a 900mah battery in a POS or WM device and see what happens. Wouldn't that disprove what I said?

    The advantages you state are relevant, not objective. POS and BB OS do not equal each other in functionality e.g. POS has much more 3rd party apps than BB OS, including (for now) Slingbox.
    Perhaps you can tell me how the Treo 650 fits in your analysis.
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    Perhaps you can tell me how the Treo 650 fits in your analysis.
    It's old (= less efficient OS & technology)

    It's 1x CDMA (no battery sucking 3g radio)

    Gets 5/6 hours talk time.

    Any mystery there?

    Keep the same size everything, throw in EvDO and watch your battery life trickle away...*



    *This applies to any device ever made on CDMA

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    As clarified before, I was referencing POS and WM devices specifically. You are literally comparing apples to oranges.

    Find me another POS device with a super thin battery and you'll have a better comparison/argument. But comparing a GSM to CDMA device with a different OS?

    sorry, Mal, smaller device, more thin, smaller battery, and it last longer than a much larger Treo. maybe it's WM or POS that you should be mad at.

    oh, by the way, how about the "thin" T680?

    Blackberry Pearl (AT&T), Apple 3G iPhone,
    owned and used: Treo 750 (WM5, Cingular)
    T680 unlocked (T-Mo), T700wx, T700w, T650, T600
    ppc6600, i730, htc mogul, BB Bold, Curve
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    It's old (= less efficient OS & technology)

    It's 1x CDMA (no battery sucking 3g radio)

    Gets 5/6 hours talk time.

    Any mystery there?

    Keep the same size everything, throw in EvDO and watch your battery life trickle away...*



    *This applies to any device ever made on CDMA
    looks like he found you one. oh, what a surprise, it doesn't qualify because it's "old."

    frustrated?
    Blackberry Pearl (AT&T), Apple 3G iPhone,
    owned and used: Treo 750 (WM5, Cingular)
    T680 unlocked (T-Mo), T700wx, T700w, T650, T600
    ppc6600, i730, htc mogul, BB Bold, Curve
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by oalvarez View Post
    sorry, Mal, smaller device, more thin, smaller battery, and it last longer than a much larger Treo. maybe it's WM or POS that you should be mad at.

    oh, by the way, how about the "thin" T680?

    I seriously have to ask: Are you daft?

    In 2 recent posts I state that WM and POS are not nearly as efficient for battery use in comparison to BB and especially OS X....to whom am I attributing blame to if not MS and Palm? I'm not mad, I accept this as obvious.

    You're trying to prove a point that I proved 10 posts ago.

    Let me be more clear: A device with PalmOS cannot get much thinner without reducing the battery size even more. Doing this will make battery life even more unacceptable.

    Virtually all devices that have become "thinner" in the last 2 years have decreased in Talk time. We are not gaining battery life because the market wants thinner devices (at the expense of battery life).

    BTW, CDMA BlackBerry's (7130e, 7250, 8703e & 8830) are all rated for 3.6 hours or less (down to 3 hrs) of talk time, so I fail to see how this is outstanding and is well below the iPhone's 8 hour talk time. So why can't BlackBerry get their act together and get at least 6 hours of rated talk time?
    Quote Originally Posted by oalvarez View Post
    looks like he found you one. oh, what a surprise, it doesn't qualify because it's "old."

    frustrated?
    What does this mean? How does it "qualify" and how did he find me one?

    I'm "frustrated" with pointing out the obvious to you.

    This is silly and I would like to get this thread back on topic. We're a distraction. I'm done.
    Last edited by Malatesta; 10/02/2007 at 01:40 AM.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    In 2 recent posts I state that WM and POS are not nearly as efficient for battery use in comparison to BB and especially OS X....Let me be more clear: A device with PalmOS cannot get much thinner without reducing the battery size even more. Doing this will make battery life even more unacceptable.

    BTW, CDMA BlackBerry's (7130e, 7250, 8703e & 8830) are all rated for 3.6 hours or less (down to 3 hrs) of talk time...
    I'm not sure I believe that WM and POS are relatively power inefficient and that is the reason why Treo's can't be thin. I admit I know nothing about BB's OS, but I do know something about the rest. I really doubt that OSX is that much more power efficient than POS or WM. Do you have some more substantive data other than looking at current devices and battery sizes (which I'd say is a poor way of determining OS/software power efficiency) ?

    As long as we're quoting rated talk times, the Q, a very thin device, running WM, has a rated talk time of 4 hours, using a 1130mah battery. It is CDMA (I agree, significantly more of a power hog than GSM) and is 3G/EVDO (also a power hog). So by this sort of reckoning, WM is about as power efficient as BB.

    Its more difficult to come up with POS examples, obviously, since the Treos are the only recent POS devices. But the POS I know was designed to be very power efficient. The Treo 700p and 700wx are rated to have the same talk time, so there's no reason to think that POS is very different than WM in efficiency.

    So basically, I don't think that Treo's are thick because WM and POS are inefficient. I rather think that Palm simply doesn't know how to engineer devices that are as thin as the state of the art allows. Some of it is battery in the Treo's, but that doesn't explain the Centro which only has the 1150mah battery like other manufacturers use. Looking for example, at a 3125 (HTC StarTrek), that thing is amazingly thin (bottom flip is 8mm thin), running WM with a 1100mah battery (5hours t-t, admittedly GSM/EDGE). I point out the 3125 not to emphasis the power issue, but the skill in designing a full WM device so thin. The total thickness of the 3125 is 15mm, but one should subtract 3-4mm to account for the air space between the flips, so the effective thickness is only 11mm. And it is only 2" width, so the overall volume is a small fraction of these other devices. It is an amazing piece of engineering. I really don't think Palm can engineer at state of the art levels and it is not related to power efficiency of WM or POS.
  14. #74  
    Touchscreens are thicker than non-touch screens. The thin WM phones don't have touchscreens, and no BB has one! As for the iPhone, people will say they don't won't two replace a bettery till it dies (like the iPods) then they sepay $79 to replace it. From the specs posted so far on the Centro, it appears that the radio is more efficient, at least in standby mode compared to older CDMA treos with larger batteries. The Centros screen is slightly smaller (save some power there), and they probably gained some efficiency in backlighting the keys.
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by lnichols View Post
    Touchscreens are thicker than non-touch screens. The thin WM phones don't have touchscreens, and no BB has one!
    See, there it is! (quack, quack)... we all laid that canard to rest a couple of days ago... touchscreens are *not* appreciably thicker than non-touch screens. I'll give you 0.5mm in your thickness budget if that will make you happy. (What you *should* be arguing is that touchscreens generally reduce the screen brightness, therefore one would need a brighter (more power-consuming) backlight to yield a display of equal effective brightness. But that argument doesn't apply to the Centro, since its battery is in line with the competition...).

    As for thin WM phones not having touchscreens, the Samsung i780 is a good 13mm counterexample... yes the iPhone is also a good counterexample of a thin phone with a touch screen. The Touch is another (yes, no keyboard, but the Treo's keyboard is below the screen anyways and the Touch is a *very* short device. Or the Touch Dual, if you prefer, which has a *slideout* keyboard, adding even more to the thickness, but its still only 15.8mm thick, less than the Palms all of which don't have slideouts.

    I think its plenty clear that Palm doesn't have the ability to make devices with the most compact circuitry that the state of the art permits.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    I'm not sure I believe that WM and POS are relatively power inefficient and that is the reason why Treo's can't be thin. I admit I know nothing about BB's OS, but I do know something about the rest. I really doubt that OSX is that much more power efficient than POS or WM. Do you have some more substantive data other than looking at current devices and battery sizes (which I'd say is a poor way of determining OS/software power efficiency) ?
    Well, this gets back into something I argued earlier and which also started quite a heated debate, but I'll reiterate w/o details:

    WM Smartphone devices get more battery life than WM PPC devices.

    Why is that? I don't know. OS differences, touchscreen/brightness/size...maybe all, maybe none.

    But lets take a single example:

    Sprint Moto Q = 1130mah battery = 4 hours rated talk time
    Sprint HTC Mogul = 1500 battery = 4.1 hours rated talk time

    The Mogul even has a newer chipset (msm 7500 vs 6500) and still has a thicker battery/barely any more talk time. So I'm sketchy about comparing smartphone vs. professional devices.

    All else being equal, could Treos be "thinner"? Absolutely. But I think it's marginal just because you can't ignore how wide these devices can be, which how they often "spread" out the battery.

    Look at the Centro, it's thicker than the Pearl and slightly wider--it's battery is also 230mah larger. Put a 900mah battery in the Centro could you whittle down to Pearl sizes? I don't see why not.

    I'm just saying that the "thin" thing is not without it's tradeoffs, especially on CDMA/3g. As the chipsets improve, things will get marginally better. The real test will be for the next WM CDMA Treo--no excuses on that one.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    WM Smartphone devices get more battery life than WM PPC devices.

    Sprint Moto Q = 1130mah battery = 4 hours rated talk time
    Sprint HTC Mogul = 1500 battery = 4.1 hours rated talk time
    Well the most obvious power-draining difference is the CPU speed. The Mogul having a 400Mhz CPU -- that has got to be good for at least 20% of the power drain difference. (Treo's typically using 312Mhz CPUs will also have this handicap).

    But I can believe that WM PPC devices would also have more inherent power drain, mostly related to the touchscreen. As mentioned before, touchscreens generally have poorer transmissivity. I am not sure of the technology used in Palms, but presuming its resistive, they typically present an ND (neutral density) of 0.8, which means that 25% more light would be required to achieve the same apparent screen brightness. I've never seen a quantitative study of smartphone (or any phone) screen brightness, so I don't know if its an apple-apples comparison (i.e. if Treos do in fact achieve the same screen brightness). My guess is that its all over the place from phone to phone, but still its a factor...

    Also, a touchscreen would require an active monitoring circuit/process, the power usage of which should be not large, but still may be a factor. The Mogul screen is larger, which also means more power need for the backlight.

    So between all these factors, I'm sure they account for the bulk of the differences in power drain between these two devices, only some of which is diirectly attributable to the WM/PPC vs WM/Std (primarily the touch screen) difference.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by neurocutie View Post
    Well the most obvious power-draining difference is the CPU speed. The Mogul having a 400Mhz CPU -- that has got to be good for at least 20% of the power drain difference. (Treo's typically using 312Mhz CPUs will also have this handicap).
    True, but I would say the Mogul technically is a dual processor system: one running at 400mhz for PDA and one at 133mhz for phone/DSP, which is supposed to be more efficient on battery life.

    The rest are all very good points.

    My concluding remarks: the desire to make devices super thin and very powerful has surpassed the technology to make devices last longer for battery life (chipsets, 3g radios, battery technology, screen power consumption, etc.). It's something that is improving for sure with newer devices, but slowly.

    So while we devices have become thinner, their talk-times and general usage has dwindled to about 3-4 hours of rated usage. The iPhone seems to be one notable exception here with its 1400mah battery and 8 hour talk time (also, the iPod Touch is a remarkable feat of engineering too, having recently played with one), though I assume no 3g helps here a lot. The new iPaq 914c also manages to squeeze in a 1840 battery which is quite impressive too (talk times range from 4-9 hrs, depending on the site reporting it).

    The issue for myself is this: I'm not willing to trade battery life for a thin PDA phone, which I use for RSS, IM, web surfing, media streaming & playing and push email all over a 3g network. So my 700wx is chunky, but I can squeeze a 2600mah battery in it which allows me to not have to worry about how I use the device.

    I think that's the reality of mobile devices today. Maybe I'm wrong but from my experience, that's just how it is.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  19. #79  
    i traded my Treo in for a Pearl that is much, much smaller, and somehow i now have a phone that lasts longer on a single charge. my iPhone is much, much more thin the the Treo i gave up and it also lasts longer than my old Treos. it also has a touchscreen and a fully qwerty virtual keyboard. one for biz, one for play, both extremely pocketable and thin. not a bad trade in my opinion. whatever i gave up i'm glad i did.
    Blackberry Pearl (AT&T), Apple 3G iPhone,
    owned and used: Treo 750 (WM5, Cingular)
    T680 unlocked (T-Mo), T700wx, T700w, T650, T600
    ppc6600, i730, htc mogul, BB Bold, Curve
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by oalvarez View Post
    ...one for biz, one for play, both extremely pocketable and thin. not a bad trade in my opinion. whatever i gave up i'm glad i did.
    You gave up having 1 device for 2 and now have a monthly BES expense, yet you don't see any trade-offs? So much for convergence. Isn't that like $800 in equipment plus about $100 in monthly expenses?

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Posting Permissions