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  1. #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by danspalmone View Post
    Yo, Kurfdawg, my law degree only cost about $45,000 so I guess I'm only half the lawyer you'll ever be, but at least I know one thing: the standard of proof in a civil action is NOT "beyond a reasonable doubt." As your $90,000 two years of law school I'm sure has taught you, the burden of proof in civil cases like what this would be is "more probable than not." Generally speaking, this translates into "51% to 49%" whereas the CRIMINAL burden of "beyond a reasonable doubt" is often compared to a 90% certainty.

    Anyway, I think there is merit to suing Palm, and I suggested we take them to small claims courts all over the country in this thread.
    i understand that i was just trying to use non legal jargon the best i could but it didnt come out sounding right.
  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by danspalmone View Post
    Yo, Kurfdawg, my law degree only cost about $45,000 so I guess I'm only half the lawyer you'll ever be, but at least I know one thing: the standard of proof in a civil action is NOT "beyond a reasonable doubt." As your $90,000 two years of law school I'm sure has taught you, the burden of proof in civil cases like what this would be is "more probable than not." Generally speaking, this translates into "51% to 49%" whereas the CRIMINAL burden of "beyond a reasonable doubt" is often compared to a 90% certainty.

    Anyway, I think there is merit to suing Palm, and I suggested we take them to small claims courts all over the country in this thread.
    saying the cost of my education was only to show others who try to tell people who know the law how to do it. I respect anyone who goes to lawschool no matter what it costs.

    i understand that i was just trying to use non legal jargon the best i could but it didnt come out sounding right. i was more trying to say that you have to fully prove to someone who knows nothing about the topic that there is defect.
  3. #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by c5vettes View Post
    I'm not even going to read your reply. I don't care what it says. You win. I'm wrong.

    Maybe it's Sprint's turn to be BETA TESTER again! Cmon guys, Verizon tested the waters first with the 700W and if you compare the 700P to the 700W. The "p" would win hands down even with our lags and resets. (Why did Palm release such a lame phone?)

    I guess if the MR comes close to the 755 a lot of our issues will fall away even though the 755 does have some lag. I guess soon; hasn't been mentioned a lot but the 755wx will probalbly make it's appearence with verzion and sprint with Wn Mobile 6. Then if we are lucky we will get our Linux Treos by Christmas.

    Will they have:

    Internal GPS
    AD2P with true voice dialing
    CDMA with GSM
    How bout at least a 2 mega pixel camera (they could do better)
    Let's go back to the Standard SD card
    How bout more memory, Palm has always skimped on memory.

    Some of the dollars that should go into making the best smartphones on earth are being directed to the Folieo (sp, I guess you see how much that excites me)

    I said this before; Maybe Access should approach HTC to produce their own brand of "Palm Access Treo's" with linux and the Palm overlay.

    I am going to test the waters with the BB 8830 (and see how it operates) I will play with it and return it but start getting used to it for the same reason I purchased Vista to get to know it. I guess some day I will be happy with Vista. Also Palm knew Vista was coming! So did many companies including "Count Me In" Fingerprint software (time clock's). Palm is not the only bad boy on the block, look at Microsoft, it is so hard to get a computer that you can blow away and install Win XP.

    I purchased the Treo 600 3 times before I kept it and fell in love with it. I can tell you that if it had the lags I certainly would not have kept it on the
    3rd Trial

    Oh well have I said enough; just waiting for Monday and the MR. Will the MR support the 8 gb card. The other day my 700p crashed and I did not have my 4 gb card at home to reinstall the driver for the 8 gb card.

    Once last thing I am almost willing to bet on is that I bet my current 700p will not BT connect with my Camry 2007 after the MR??? BT was fixed on the 755p, (I am sorry that it is not, maybe better for the most part) Question, do any of the Motorola Q's have problems connecting to their BT devices? Haven't been to their forums!!
    Last edited by Gas Man; 06/02/2007 at 10:19 PM.
  4. #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by maninrochester View Post
    The class action debate is, IMHO, silly. The only thing Palm is guilty of is racing a product to market before it was ready. I'm not a lawyer but I don't think that's an actionable offense from a legal perspective.
    Of course it is! If you can show that the result of the rush to market is a product that does not work as advertised then that would be actionable in a typical consumer protection case. In Massacusetts (where I am licensed to practice law, but do not--I'm a school adminitrator,) chapter 93A protects consumers from "unfair and deceptive" practices. Most every other state has similar laws on their books and they are meant for the average Joe to be able to stand up to any company, large or small. I'm not saying it would be a slam-dunk case, but I do think that it could be shown that Palm's racing to market with the problematic 700p and then the dangling of the MR in front of our faces for months could be considered both unfair and deceptive.

    I'd like to find out if this might actually work. If people are willing to help me, I'd spend some time on it. See this thread.
  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by danspalmone View Post
    Of course it is! If you can show that the result of the rush to market is a product that does not work as advertised then that would be actionable in a typical consumer protection case. In Massacusetts (where I am licensed to practice law, but do not--I'm a school adminitrator,) chapter 93A protects consumers from "unfair and deceptive" practices. Most every other state has similar laws on their books and they are meant for the average Joe to be able to stand up to any company, large or small. I'm not saying it would be a slam-dunk case, but I do think that it could be shown that Palm's racing to market with the problematic 700p and then the dangling of the MR in front of our faces for months could be considered both unfair and deceptive.

    I'd like to find out if this might actually work. If people are willing to help me, I'd spend some time on it. See this thread.
    it's probably a good thing you went with the school thing if you think this is a case for class action. look at the poll on treo central. most people are happy with their treos (71%)....and most 700p users don't even know about treo central.

    aside rom bluetooth issues, which SOME phones clearly have, everything else like lag, etc won't hold a candle in the legal world. what is a lag anyway? because it's slower than your last phone? many people complain bout the 700p being slower than the 650. i am sure it is. but the 650 is not a broadband phone.


    don't get me wrong...i can't wait for the mr cause anything to make this phone better is great....but a case for a class action lawsuit is ludacriss.
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    #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by danspalmone View Post
    Of course it is! If you can show that the result of the rush to market is a product that does not work as advertised then that would be actionable in a typical consumer protection case. In Massacusetts (where I am licensed to practice law, but do not--I'm a school adminitrator,) chapter 93A protects consumers from "unfair and deceptive" practices. Most every other state has similar laws on their books and they are meant for the average Joe to be able to stand up to any company, large or small. I'm not saying it would be a slam-dunk case, but I do think that it could be shown that Palm's racing to market with the problematic 700p and then the dangling of the MR in front of our faces for months could be considered both unfair and deceptive.

    I'd like to find out if this might actually work. If people are willing to help me, I'd spend some time on it. See this thread.
    Again what advertised feature on the phone doesn't work?
  7. #127  
    For the last time: I'm not suggesting a class action is a a good idea (it might be but I have no interest in it.) I think a small claims consumer protection case has merit and is winnable, quickly and easily, vs. the snail's pace, complexity and uncertainty of a class action.

    Oh, waterfrontmgmt, regarding your comments like this one: "but a case for a class action lawsuit is ludacriss." Learn how to spell, and then judge me on my career choices.
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    #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by vMAC View Post
    Again what advertised feature on the phone doesn't work?
    I guess it depends on your definition of works.

    yes you can get BT to "work" but it is faulty.

    Yes the phone will make and answer calls but it resets far more then it should that I miss a lot of calls.

    yes you can go from on application to another but more times then not the lag time is far longer then it should be.

    A Pinto "worked" it just Blew up some time when rear ended!
    LLARSON
    Treo 600, 650,700P, 755P and iPHONE
  9. #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by danspalmone View Post
    Oh, waterfrontmgmt, regarding your comments like this one: "but a case for a class action lawsuit is ludacriss." Learn how to spell, and then judge me on my career choices.
    learn a little something about music and maybe you'll get the pun.
  10. #130  
    oh i got ya...i had an extra "s"...now suddenly the class action suit makes sense. go for it.
  11. fondoo's Avatar
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    #131  
    i pitty palm. i'm moving to the blackberry 8830. atleat i can use it in asia.
  12. vMAC's Avatar
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    #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by llarson View Post
    I guess it depends on your definition of works.

    yes you can get BT to "work" but it is faulty.

    Yes the phone will make and answer calls but it resets far more then it should that I miss a lot of calls.

    yes you can go from on application to another but more times then not the lag time is far longer then it should be.

    A Pinto "worked" it just Blew up some time when rear ended!
    Are we comparing a car that blew up and fried people alive to a phone that at worst causes someone to lose 5 minutes of productivity a day?

    Also just as you stated everything that they claimed in their advertising is correct, BT works but it has some bugs, so does the FAA software that monitors all of the airplanes in this country.

    Resets; talk to people who owned windows 98, 95, 3.1 anyone?

    Lag, how about a Vista on very nice computer that ran XP beautifully?

    And for those complaining that PALM isn't supporting them, how about all those Windows ME users who haven't had support for the product they bought since a year after it was released? The difference is with all of these problems you have had other choices of smartphones which you can switch to at anytime. With Windows you really don't for the normal layperson. So which is really more of a problem?

    If you are that upset just leave PALM, don't buy another of their products, and move on with your life. The only thing that your constant complaining does is stop me from referring people to this site because it tarnishes the help that some people are more than willing to give, with the petty grievances of people who have to have something to complain about.
  13. #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by vMAC View Post
    If you are that upset just leave PALM, don't buy another of their products, and move on with your life. The only thing that your constant complaining does is stop me from referring people to this site because it tarnishes the help that some people are more than willing to give, with the petty grievances of people who have to have something to complain about.
    I would have moved on six months ago if Palm had just come right out and said, "VZW users will not see an update to fix the problems with the 700p until July or August, or maybe never." But they screwed with us for months about this damn MR. I think people looking to buy a Palm product SHOULD see our complaints so they know what they might be in for. And it tarnishes nothing. This site is still perfectly usable as a help forum, despite our displeasure with the MR debacle.
  14. #134  
    There's not much MR chatter on the forum tonight. Everyone must be tucked in their beds with "Visions" of ROM updates in their heads.

    Don't forget to leave out milk and cookies.
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    #135  
    i AM NO LAWYER- nor do I type or spell so good- so feel free to pick at that all you want.

    :-)

    I really don't know anything about lawsuits and burden of proof- but I do know that I routinely get 2 cent checks in the mail from credit card company's for class action suits- apparently 2 cents worth of "damage" to me was enough to win a suit. And so harmfull that 39/41 cents is required to mail me a check immediately.

    There's a guy in California who has a class action lawsuit about Directv's picture quality - can some one explain to me if the rules are so strict how a judge is letting that go on- being annoyed by your treo isn't actionable but watching HD that you think isn't clear enough is?

    I've seen a lawsuit for a guy that took home a drum that held a flammable liquid from work and then he tried to cut it open at home with a torch to make a barbecue. His family sued that the label of the drum should have said something akin to "dint use a blow torch on the drum even if you think it's empty".

    I also saw one where a guy was suing a major US telecom becasue his work area did not have enough exhaust. His "expert" measured the airflow by placing a tissue up to a vent and didn't think it "danced" enough- and that was the backbone of the case.

    Ed Mcmahon won 7+ MILLION dollars becasue of mold damage to his home from a broken water pipe- you probably could have demolished and rebuilt the home for 1 million.

    I was just at a seminar today where they discussed a lawsuit in Michigan where there were millions spent on both sides, a house was demolished and the insurance finally settled because there was a sewer line on the property so the owner decided the house was "unsafe" - last I checked every house has a **** pipe coming out of it (well every house with running water). I guess we all should demolish our homes?

    So let's not pretend that the current state of our legal system precludes stupid petty lawsuits. Or that they can't be won (or settled) at times.

    Not saying this would be a petty suit- just that you can't really dismiss anything anymore as being an absurd lawsuit or unwinnable. There's plenty of criminal cases that are absurd too- but it's probably too political to bring those up.
  16. #136  
    Umm.... because the issues aren't occuring universally, or even on a majority of devices? Or because they don't present a safety issue, as most of the cases you describe? Or because many of the issues are opinion-based (the lag is "too long", etc.)? Or because stupid, petty lawsuits are....stupid and petty?
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

    Treo600 --> Treo650-->PPC6700-->Treo700P-->Treo755P-->Treo800W --> Touch Pro-->Palm Pre --> EVO 4G
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    #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Umm.... because the issues aren't occuring universally, or even on a majority of devices? Or because they don't present a safety issue, as most of the cases you describe? Or because many of the issues are opinion-based (the lag is "too long", etc.)? Or because stupid, petty lawsuits are....stupid and petty?
    It doesn't need to be universal and probably not even a majority (I'll let the lawyers speak to that)- I've seen plenty of class action lawsuits that are just for people that got lemons or had issues. I got one "settlement" the other day for a Toshiba laptop I had a while back. It said "IF" i was one of the people that had a particular repair done then i was entitled to a coupon or something. I've gotten similar ones int he past. So clearly every owner of that model laptop wasn't effected and the judgement/settlement was designed just to make those with the problem "whole". So it would seem that you probably couldn't file a claim to get every 700p owner something but you could likely file a lawsuit against palm on behalf of the class of owners who do experience issues and if the judge/jury/lawyers decide that there is somethign there then the people who have had issues could get their 2 cent coupons and the lawyer could get his 300,0000.

    I wouldn't disagree that such a lawsuit just might be "stupid and petty" - just I'd say that's pretty much irrelevant so I wont even try to figure it out.

    My point was that even if it seems silly, or petty, or difficult to draw a direct line to show damages, that doesn't mean you wont find a lawyer to file the claim. And you can in many cases find a judge to let such silly things proceed. And that sometimes people win these silly cases either in court or because it's cheaper to settle.


    I dont see how people complaining about lag and resets on a smartphone is any more silly and petty then someone filing a class action about directv's HD picture quality and that is proceeding last I read. At least these complaints are about usability. The directv suit is that the picture isn't pretty enough. I don't see anyone threatening to sue that the screen on a treo doesn't have enough resolution or anything.

    All that said- isn't that what Internet forums are for- so people can make periodic threats about class action lawsuits?
  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by pool_shark View Post
    I am satisfied with my 700P, but I am still upset that Palm keeps dangling a fix in front of it's customers and withdrawing it. That is nothing short of disrespect and very poor customer service.

    The BT issue I have is due to using a headset that isn't on the compatibility list. I didn't have many issues when I used the Jabra BT500 though after I stopped turning BT off on the device.

    I don't really see the lag in switching apps, though I do see a lag when typing text messages. I very seldom get resets, but I perform resets every morning which I think helped to minimize issues with my device. Some users think performing daily resets is too much of a hassle. I would rather take 5 minutes a day to reset it and not have any issues, than not reset it and have many issues throughout the day.
    I have two Bluetooth headsets. One is not on the list (Jabra BT250v, which, ironically is on the Treo 650p's list). One is (Motorola HS500). The Jabra has intermittent connectivity issues; the Motorola periodically causes a crash/reboot of the phone when engaging a call. Just because a headset is on the list doesn't mean it's trouble-free with the 700p. It just means it is more likely to work properly.
  19. #139  
    "Treo 700p maintenance release (MR) is expected to be available on Monday (June 4th) for Sprint users via the palm.com website. We will post an update here on the blog with a link to the MR once it is live. We donít have a specific date for when the 700p MR will be available for Verizon Wireless users at this time."

    Ok....so I said to myself ...self? Today...just maybe your 700p will finally function right. Guess what ....I went to the Palm site for the MR update and there were crickets chirping. Nothing. No MR...not even a mention of it.
    I expect later on today to read like 60,000 angry responses to Paul Loeffler's
    promise to have this fix posted by June 4th and figured it out fellas. Paul Loeffler does not exist. He is not real folks. It's a name Palm made up to take the flack for the 700P Disaster. Matter a fact I would go as far as to say ...the 700P is the Hurricane Katrina of PDA's. And now ...so is the 700p MR. It's a myth!!!! So give that peice of shyt PDA to your dog to chew on. What's that? Your dog is waiting for the MR Release too because he doen't care for lemons?
  20. #140  
    Paul Loeffler does not exist. He is not real folks. It's a name Palm made up to take the flack for the 700P Disaster.
    Now that would have been the most ingenious thing PALM has done in a long time...
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