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  1. #101  
    Don't you just love when the palm people get some of their cronies to post PRO PALM things about the 700p on a site where tons of 700p users are complaining about how f*cked up this peice of crap is?...Its like ..."did u know that cancer is good for you? See how it helps to keep your weight down?" Cut the crap you guys ....if you think the 700p is so dayum great....then unplug your plug in headset and just try the bluetooth one...Better yet ...try using it for a lil more that a phone call u freakin moron....it just plain sucks!!!!!!!!
  2. #102  
    the question was a suit over the MR not the phone, thats what i commented on.

    the product may be defective but that a different issue for a legal suit than whats being discussed here.

    for the above, you might FEEL damages were incurred but the burden falls on the customer (you) to prove damages which is impossible to physically provide documented proof that would constitute a valid lawsuit. Saying you had resets or spent hours programming the phone is not a valid basis for a suit as you cannot document or prove any of this in a court of law. You cant sue Palm either because they didnt satisfy your time frame for an update, they aren't obligated to give one by any means at all by any law. Also they can put their resources where they wish that is their job to divert resources to priority projects, not a basis for a suit either. From a legal standpoint none of the things you listed are any valid basis for a legal suit and are not able to be proven to a judge through documentation.

    This is not a criminal trial, intent/motive is not a portion of a class action lawsuit, only documented proof. Merely saying Palm screwed me over wont hold up in any court ever. The key to class actions is replicate the problem, duplicate it (a problem on every phone), and be able to prove harm by such problems. Class actions against large corporations are not very frequently won for a reason, usually proof is just not there that it cause irrefutable harm to the group in question suing.

    as ink883 said, there's no basis for a suit against the MR or even the device itd be impossible to prove every one is defective beyond a reasonable doubt. No good lawyer would take the case because the phone doesn't work how you EXPECT it to. Now, maybe there could be one for false advertising or breach of warranty but thats about all that would honestly be worth any lawyers time. False advertising could be proved by the list of compatible bluetooth headsets not working since you have physical documentation (the list) and proof.

    indshrk- how will a jury come to any conclusion its not suitable for any use? beyond your obvious hatred for the phone, tell me your legal basis, that will hold up in a court, how youre going to prove the phone was defective? Just becuse it doesn't work they way you wanted it to or expected it to doesnt mean "defective" in terms of the law. Now, later in your post, you are correct with the bluetooth and mp3 ringer portion, but this would be a false advertising suit. I honestly don't believe, although not denying its a piece of junk, there's enough there to prove a defective product that settlement would be granted in the our favor.

    Sure, i hate how Palm treats its customers and shady products they release, but my advice is strictly from a neutral legal standpoint as a judge would be viewing it from. The basis for a suit is just not there by the letter of the law. Now saying that, false advertising or breach of warranty would be feasible to be won.

    We seem to have a lot of "armchair lawyers" here so if you want to argue points, please raise your hand if you are a lawyer or law student at the least before giving any advise on the law. I don't have a $90,000 law education for nothing so if you don't know the legal answer don't post like you do. Your bad opinions/feelings does not equate to Palm being liable by the letter of the law. Because i promise Palm has at least 20 high priced corporate lawyers sitting there foaming at the mouth waiting for this kind of thing to occur. Better come to the fight with some heavy ammo in order to see any progress
    Last edited by klurfdawg23; 06/01/2007 at 10:16 PM.
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhasheene View Post
    Don't you just love when the palm people get some of their cronies to post PRO PALM things about the 700p on a site where tons of 700p users are complaining about how f*cked up this peice of crap is?...Its like ..."did u know that cancer is good for you? See how it helps to keep your weight down?" Cut the crap you guys ....if you think the 700p is so dayum great....then unplug your plug in headset and just try the bluetooth one...Better yet ...try using it for a lil more that a phone call u freakin moron....it just plain sucks!!!!!!!!
    I think the entire point of countless threads is that the majority of users are able to use bluetooth and a variety of programs without the problems that others are having. This doesn't minimize your troubles; however, it simply means that the issues aren't universal.

    I use bluetooth with no problems, have multiple 3rd party programs, etc. I would, by any definition, be considered a power user. As has been mentioned by myself and others, surveys on this board indicate that over 70% of users are moderately or very happy with their Treo700p. We, as a group, are certainly more likely to be "power users" than the typical user, and represent a tiny minority of the user base. Palm would have no trouble making a case that anyone presenting a legal case doesn't represent the typical expectations for the use of the Treo.

    Those of you who have been around for awhile will remember the same rabid responses for class action lawsuits regarding the Treo650 as well.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

    Treo600 --> Treo650-->PPC6700-->Treo700P-->Treo755P-->Treo800W --> Touch Pro-->Palm Pre --> EVO 4G
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by klurfdawg23 View Post
    indshrk- how will a jury come to any conclusion its not suitable for any use? beyond your obvious hatred for the phone, tell me your legal basis, that will hold up in a court, how youre going to prove the phone was defective? Just becuse it doesn't work they way you wanted it to or expected it to doesnt mean "defective" in terms of the law. Now, later in your post, you are correct with the bluetooth and mp3 ringer portion, but this would be a false advertising suit. I honestly don't believe, although not denying its a piece of junk, there's enough there to prove a defective product that settlement would be granted in the our favor.
    First, it's LNDSHRK.. as in LAND SHARK.

    How I am going to PROVE it?

    Simple - witnesses.

    Apparently you haven't done your homework to understand that the T700P
    resets itself silently when paired on BT. It works like this:

    1) Phone call comes in

    2) Before phone rings, BT causes phone to reset silently - no record is made
    of the reset - no ring occurs. Poof.

    This isn't something nebulous.

    It is something easily proven by witness, by demonstration, and by examination
    of the carriers logs. There is no question that the T700p was defective
    right out of the box and didn't meet it's own written specifications

    You really ought to stick to a different profession, because if you think that
    everything in a civil (or a criminal) case comes down to some concrete, you
    are going to be a very unhappy junior counsel as will be your clients.

    Jim

    PS: Not a lawyer, although I generally have a few of them for breakfast with
    a bagel and some cream cheese when needed.
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I use bluetooth with no problems.
    No, your callers just haven't informed you of the problems.

    Likely you've had the same problems as everyone else whos complaining.

    See Bujin, THAT is the problem with the BT. It will "silently" reset the phone
    on rcpt of a call. No log of the reset. UNLESS you are LOOKING at the face
    of the phone when it happens YOU (the owner of the T700p) will never know
    something is wrong. Your caller can assume you are on another call, or you
    could assume you are in a spotty coverage area and that "all is well".
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by lndshrk View Post
    No, your callers just haven't informed you of the problems.

    Likely you've had the same problems as everyone else whos complaining.

    See Bujin, THAT is the problem with the BT. It will "silently" reset the phone
    on rcpt of a call. No log of the reset. UNLESS you are LOOKING at the face
    of the phone when it happens YOU (the owner of the T700p) will never know
    something is wrong. Your caller can assume you are on another call, or you
    could assume you are in a spotty coverage area and that "all is well".
    No, what's actually amazing is that I know more about my phone usage than you do.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

    Treo600 --> Treo650-->PPC6700-->Treo700P-->Treo755P-->Treo800W --> Touch Pro-->Palm Pre --> EVO 4G
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by lndshrk View Post
    First, it's LNDSHRK.. as in LAND SHARK.

    How I am going to PROVE it?

    Simple - witnesses.

    Apparently you haven't done your homework to understand that the T700P
    resets itself silently when paired on BT. It works like this:

    1) Phone call comes in

    2) Before phone rings, BT causes phone to reset silently - no record is made
    of the reset - no ring occurs. Poof.

    This isn't something nebulous.

    It is something easily proven by witness, by demonstration, and by examination
    of the carriers logs. There is no question that the T700p was defective
    right out of the box and didn't meet it's own written specifications

    You really ought to stick to a different profession, because if you think that
    everything in a civil (or a criminal) case comes down to some concrete, you
    are going to be a very unhappy junior counsel as will be your clients.

    Jim

    PS: Not a lawyer, although I generally have a few of them for breakfast with
    a bagel and some cream cheese when needed.
    boy way to try to insult me. Don't be jelous you're not the know-it-all here. Stick to advice outside the law since you obviously know nothing about it.

    i guess you dont fully understand what a class action lawsuit is so ill explain it

    A "class action" is a civil suit brought by one or more people on behalf of themselves and others who are similarly situated. In other words, the others are in a substantially similar circumstance where the common issues are the most critical to the lawsuit. For example, if a large number of consumers is injured as a result of an allegedly defective product, the principal issue will be whether the product caused the injury. Only then will the question of how badly each party was injured be heard. Typical class actions involve hundreds, thousands or millions of people who have comparable claims. Class action "certification" permits all claims to be heard in a single trial.

    Youre still missing the point the key word is numbers. You cant walk into court with 1 700p and show them, it could be that phone or that individual batch of phones and then Palm will say oh we'll just replace the bad ones.

    Carrier logs? what in god's name are you talking about? dropped calls DO NOT prove defective phones sheesh. You show me one carrier that doesnt have dropped calls, they all do. You cant correlate dropped calls with a defective phone as their is still the carrier factor in that equation. You think like a civilian, Palm would refute your claim easily as I just have.

    Thats not how the law works sorry bud. You need to prove damages across the putative class.

    Also (1) the class must be so large as to make individual suits impractical, (2) there must be legal or factual claims in common (3) the claims or defenses must be typical of the plaintiffs or defendants, and (4) the representative parties must adequately protect the interests of the class. In many cases, the party seeking certification must also show (5) that common issues between the class and the defendants will predominate the proceedings, as opposed to individual fact-specific conflicts between class members and the defendants and (6) that the class action, instead of individual litigation, is a superior vehicle for resolution of the disputes at hand.

    Show me punitive damages. Show me how this putative group was so negatively affected they deserve judgment for the class members. You think you're so smart but apparently not since there is a group of at least a dozen highly educated lawyers (actual lawyers) smarter than you sitting there waiting to defend Palm. No not everything in law is concrete evidence but you have NONE to go off of.

    Like I said earlier this could be a false advertising claim but thats about it. Just because something doesn't work how you expect it to work doesn't equate a legal "wrong" being done to you. Palm says the phone has bluetooth it does not say bluetooth will function this way or that way. Besides the point bluetooth is an unreliable technology and has been proven though many other phones.
    Last edited by klurfdawg23; 06/01/2007 at 11:21 PM.
  8. JCFox's Avatar
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    #108  
    Many people complain a CLASS ACTION lawsuit would simply make the lawyers rich. At this point, I'd rather a lawyer - ANY LAWYER - get the $700 or so I paid for my 700pos, and take it out of Palms hands.

    It will take a large lawfirm to do a case like this - there are guys who make a living with Class Action lawsuits, so if anyone is sufficiently angry about the 700pos, then search the net and find someone who would be interested.

    Once someone is interested - post a thread looking for plaintiff's (they'll need a few, and they are easy to find here.)

    Likely our friends at Verizon and Sprint will be named parties - and they bring money to the table - to FIGHT, but that's ok.

    It will be a PRPRPR $nightmare$ $for$ $Palm$, $and$ $mark$ $the$ $END$ $of$ $what$ $could$ $have$ $been$ $a$ $great$ $company$.

    RIP PALM - your days are certainly numbered. It's stock is currently trading in the $15.00 range. Three times what it was 4 years ago. I can't WAIT to see what it will look like when a lawsuit is filed.

    So....all you lawyers out there....WAKE UP, and lets roll!!
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by JCFox View Post
    Many people complain a CLASS ACTION lawsuit would simply make the lawyers rich. At this point, I'd rather a lawyer - ANY LAWYER - get the $700 or so I paid for my 700pos, and take it out of Palms hands.

    It will take a large lawfirm to do a case like this - there are guys who make a living with Class Action lawsuits, so if anyone is sufficiently angry about the 700pos, then search the net and find someone who would be interested.

    Once someone is interested - post a thread looking for plaintiff's (they'll need a few, and they are easy to find here.)

    Likely our friends at Verizon and Sprint will be named parties - and they bring money to the table - to FIGHT, but that's ok.

    It will be a PRPRPR $nightmare$ $for$ $Palm$, $and$ $mark$ $the$ $END$ $of$ $what$ $could$ $have$ $been$ $a$ $great$ $company$.

    RIP PALM - your days are certainly numbered. It's stock is currently trading in the $15.00 range. Three times what it was 4 years ago. I can't WAIT to see what it will look like when a lawsuit is filed.

    So....all you lawyers out there....WAKE UP, and lets roll!!
    I realize frustration runs high in the 700p section here and people will say anything to "stick it to palm" or whatever it may be. Ive never denied there wont be greedy lawyers who would pick this class action suit up. But as i've tried to explain winning a class action is harder than it looks to average people. And this means nothing to bring it to court and not win judgment.

    Dont count on sprint or verizon donating funds to the cause. Its a conflict of interest to them as they profit off the phone's sales and have contracts with Palm.

    PRPRPR $nightmare$-$yes$ $areed$. $Class$ $action$ $wont$ $hurt$ $palm$ $financially$ $very$ $much$, $verizon$ $survived$ $it$ $with$ $the$ $v710$ $and$ $their$ $still$ $one$ $of$ $the$ $strongest$ $US$ $carriers$. $companies$ $are$ $always$ $sued$ $and$ $rarely$ $go$ $under$ $because$ $of$ $it$ ($verizon$, $mcdonalds$, $etc$)
    Last edited by klurfdawg23; 06/01/2007 at 11:37 PM.
  10. dcpmark's Avatar
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    #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by lndshrk View Post
    Apparently you haven't done your homework to understand that the T700P resets itself silently when paired on BT. It works like this:

    1) Phone call comes in

    2) Before phone rings, BT causes phone to reset silently - no record is made
    of the reset - no ring occurs. Poof.
    Yeah, that's not true for those of us who use LauncherX. Thanks to a bug in version 1.2.29, the SD card will not automatically load whenever there is a soft reset. I have to eject and then reseat the card, then press the Home key to load it properly. Therefore I have an absolutely 100% *****-proof way of knowing when my Treo resets, "silently" or otherwise. I have been using LauncherX in combination with a Jabra JX-10 for almost a year, and during that time I have had my Treo spontaneously reset.....once. Yes, it is certainly possible that the one reset could have been caused by BT "before the phone rings," but it also could have been caused by a host of other networking/phone signal issues. The BT implementation is only one of several problem areas of the OS in the 700p, and some of them can/will never be fixed. The BT stack is actually one of the easier things to fix.

    I am not doubting that you and others have had lots of resets, nor am I doubting that experiences may vary depending on carriers, different BT headsets. But you seem to suggest that all 700p units acts as yours does, and that's simply not true.
  11. #111  
    Actually, I have run into this bluetooth crashing the phone on incoming calls on multiple occasions (until I got smart enough to never leave my JX-10 connected to my phone). When I'm home, I know exactly when it has happened because my home phone is forwarded to my cell, so I'll hear one ring from my home phone, then see the phone reset... Then when whoever called me tries again, I STILL can't answer it because it takes 3-4 minutes for the phone to restart... I have to retrieve the message they leave and call back... It's annoying to say the least. So now, I don't connect my headset until after I answer the phone, and disconnect it when I get off...
  12. #112  
    After installing MR if 700P is still not 755P then what? I am not saying it will but if it does happen then......? I mean they kept on thinking Foleo was ground breaking invention too........
    I am just sayin..
    Technological superiority has never won a product battle. If that were the case we would all be flying in supersonic Concordes and using Apple computers.

    The key to winning the battle is a combination of price, convenience, marketing, sound business model and a bit of luck.
  13. #113  
    It would be fun to get used to 700P not crashing often as it used to be and anticipating freezes and left in awww.... its fixed Just thinking out loud.
    Technological superiority has never won a product battle. If that were the case we would all be flying in supersonic Concordes and using Apple computers.

    The key to winning the battle is a combination of price, convenience, marketing, sound business model and a bit of luck.
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by klurfdawg23 View Post
    We seem to have a lot of "armchair lawyers" here so if you want to argue points, please raise your hand if you are a lawyer or law student at the least before giving any advise on the law. I don't have a $90,000 law education for nothing so if you don't know the legal answer don't post like you do.
    Please don't take this the wrong way but you have a lot to learn about the law grasshopper. I admire your enthusiasm but you really need to temper that with a little knowledge. And yes, I am a lawyer who has been practicing for over twenty years.
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhasheene View Post
    Don't you just love when the palm people get some of their cronies to post PRO PALM things about the 700p on a site where tons of 700p users are complaining about how f*cked up this peice of crap is...try using it for a lil more that a phone call u freakin moron....it just plain sucks!!!!!!!!
    wish i had cluemail...i would send you one. did the thought ever cross your
    mind that only SOME treos have these issues and others work fine?

    seriously...you need to grow up because YOU end up sounding like the moron to people on the board...and i know you don't want that.

    and if your phone was a piece of crap, why didn't you return it before your 30 day refund period ended? and you call others a moron....geesh.

    i use bluetooth everyday and it NEVER resets during a call. once a week or so bluetooth turns itself off...i just turn it back on. i will sometimes get a lag on chattermail...but it's still must faster than my computer...and it's a freakin phone.

    and i am on my phone ALL day...and no i don't work for palm...i don't even know where the are based. what i do know, though, is that if my phone had a problem...my clients would let me know about it!

    the reality is that some 700p's have more bugs than others.
  16. lazaruz's Avatar
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    #116  
    I am posting from my vzw 700p which is unlikely to receive the MR anytime soon, but a comment above got me thinking (always dangerous) but what is a 'power user'? someone who adds on to enhance the product-right? so what have we @all@ added on- launchers. I was having the bt reset issue when I was using launcherx- a couple of weeks ago I saw treo launcher being discussed in these forums (just basically a shell for the native launcher) and voila the bt reset issue is gone. I still have the lag and bt will occassionally disconnect but no resets. maybe I have a fluke but maybe it is not @all@ palms fault. by the way their entire corporate communications department should be fired.
  17. #117  
    Guys, stop thinking it's bc you are power users. I started out adding small progs on my first 700p. Since then I have gone through 2 more from vzw, with NO additional programs, and I still have many of the same or even other issues.

    I have the BT/reset on call issue. I have the lag issue. I have the sms issue. I have had resets when changing preferences on sound notifications. I've had issues pairing with a bt headset and having to reset in order for it to pair and actually transfer sound to the headset. I even have recent issues on the last 2 phones of weaker ability to hold a call and not lose signal. I lose/drop calls in places i never have before.

    And all these are with NO added programs. TRUST ME. It is not YOU, it IS palm's fault.
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by klurfdawg23 View Post
    "....as ink883 said, there's no basis for a suit against the MR or even the device itd be impossible to prove every one is defective beyond a reasonable doubt......I don't have a $90,000 law education for nothing so if you don't know the legal answer don't post like you do.
    Yo, Kurfdawg, my law degree only cost about $45,000 so I guess I'm only half the lawyer you'll ever be, but at least I know one thing: the standard of proof in a civil action is NOT "beyond a reasonable doubt." As your $90,000 two years of law school I'm sure has taught you, the burden of proof in civil cases like what this would be is "more probable than not." Generally speaking, this translates into "51% to 49%" whereas the CRIMINAL burden of "beyond a reasonable doubt" is often compared to a 90% certainty.

    Anyway, I think there is merit to suing Palm, and I suggested we take them to small claims courts all over the country in this thread.
  19. #119  
    The class action debate is, IMHO, silly. The only thing Palm is guilty of is racing a product to market before it was ready. I'm not a lawyer but I don't think that's an actionable offense from a legal perspective. Palm added to the issue by obfuscating and denying problems, then compounded it by introducing new products before they fixed the ones in the field. Unfortunately this is common practice in high technology electronics and software. While I would have certainly preferred Palm to devote more resources to the 700p I have to acknowledge that devoting too much resource to legacy products may put Palm too far behind the pace in the exceptionally competitive SmartPhone market. I cannot imagine how one determines where to devote resources. Furthermore lawsuits, successful or otherwise, tend to make manufacturers timid about innovation by virtue of the cost of litigation. We should remember that the Treo is a phone not a defective drug. No one is going to die because their phone reset (I know I'm in for 10,000 examples of how resets at precisely the wrong moment may result in bodily injury or death). The real issue is that we're angry at the time it's taken to get this patch and we're disappointed with Palm's communication skills. I think that we can all agree that Palm should have been more communicative and that, more than anything else, is the prime source frustration with the 700p.

    I purposely delayed the purchase of a Smartphone for years because I had understood them to be unreliable and limited from a features and functionality perspective as a PDA. I bought the 700p because it is a third generation product following the 600 and 650 and I reasoned that by the 3rd generation most of the significant bugs had been worked out; appearantly they're not. While I can't place blame totally on any one culprit, Palm has a great deal of responsibility, as do the 3rd party developers who appear to be more interested in adding features than they are in improving reliability; additionally,I have to blame myself for loading a bunch of freeware on my Treo and then wondering why it's become unreliable. I guess I got what I paid for.

    It looks like Palm wants to make it right by us they seem to have gone to great pains to improve their responsiveness, witness their Blog and the MyPalm portal. They are releasing the MR pretty soon and they are taking a great deal of risk with the Linux thing. Let's just hope it all works!
    Palm I >Palm IIIi>Palm 505> Zire 71>PEG37>T|X>TREO 700P That's a lot of palming!!
  20. #120  
    Does this MR release saga remind anyone of Groundhog Day?
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