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  1.    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
    A dipole antenna is a nice idea but physically clumsy for this application.
    Aren't you recommending a dipole though? I'm confused as to how your design isn't a dipole, being end fed still doesn't change much of the setup (as I'm trying to envision in my head. **edit, two posts down I drew a picture of what I'm envisioning, it may need to be maximized/magnified to read the words, but should be on point), it just seems you're continuing the inside wire of the coax as a lead instead of connecting that to a new lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
    Plus, any part of an antenna that is under your hand is not going to work well.
    Glad you joined! That's great to know, the new antenna will be a large, ~3.5'' antenna extended completely above my phone, not fixed to the back of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
    The old Ericsson phones used to use a rubber covered antenna, like a stick of chewing gum, that extended above the phone and since it was rubber, it just flexed instead of breaking.
    Would the antenna in my diagram be able to flex? I'm planning to gut some walkie talkie antenna, and feed mine into it, then epoxy that walkie talkie's antenna sleeve (with my antenna in it) onto the OEM one. If it's flexible, and the coax flexes a little bit, is that bad? GG ebay to find some broken walkie talkies to get an antenna cover from.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
    What I plan to do is to get a right angle FME to coax adapter, a pigtail with about 12-18" of cable connected to the FME fitting at a right angle.
    Most that I've seen for the FME to coax adapters are right angles (lucky for us!), I believe the Wilson one I have coming in the mail is a 12'' cable. But, what is meant by 'pigtail'?
    This is what I've ordered:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Hands...spagenameZWDVW

    I just don't see what you mean by pigtail, is that in reference to the cable once it's cut, and the copper mesh is separated from the center wire?


    Quote Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
    THen I'll convert most of that to an end-fed dipole (sometimes called a "Bazooka" dipole) and run that right up the antenna stub so it sticks up above my hand.
    What's an end-fed dipole. If you look up bazooka dipole you'll get conflicting results. A real end-fed dipole is made by stripping back the coaxial shield and leaving the center conductor intact. Let's say the magic length for you is 1.47" for dipole legs. OK, you remove just the plastic jacket from 1.5" of the coax, and tease the metal braiding back down over the outside of the able, so that 1.5" of the center conductor (still insulated!) sticks up, and 1.5" of braid is now running back in the other direction over the coax.
    Voila, you've got a dipole antenna and your feed line is coming OUT THE END instead of through the middle. You'll want to fiddle a bit with lengths to make them exactly right.
    Very nice, using the cable's wires instead of making my own leads saves multiples steps, that's great.
    Also, because it's being done without having to connect the two cables inside the coax to new leads, we're probably getting a better quality antenna right? Doing it your way saves the distance between where the coax cable's shield is stripped, and where the leads begin. In your method, the leads begin immediately, as they are simply the wires from the coax. I was under the impression having the coax cut too long before the leads greatly reduced the effectiveness, and that it was important to keep the distance short. This keeps the distance as short as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
    And, you can use metal tubing or braid on the outside instead of teasing the braid back over the jacket.
    I'm a little unclear on that. Do you mean that, instead of twisting and bending the copper mesh shield 180 degrees backwards, I'd connect it to something else that runs back down along the cable? Or that I twist it up, bend it back straight downwards, only put it through metal tubing, like for protecting it. I'm lost on this detail, I don't know if you mean the negative lead is the copper mesh, or something I need to connect it to..

    Quote Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
    You can also use a bit of metal tubing instead of the center conductor.
    You get better bandwidth from the antenna if the center conductor that's sticking out is replaced by something slightly thicker, i.e. thin copper tubing or heavy gauge wire , but then you've got to connect it up and that's more stuff to go wrong.
    When you are done, you want the feed line to extend STRAIGHT OUT from the end and not turn at any angle for a small distance. I haven't tested it on these frequencies yet, but I'd guess 1/2" to 1" is plenty.
    So, you'll have a total of about 4" of antenna that plugs into the FME fitting and then needs to be shrink-wrapped or covered in silicon seal, etc. and then tied off to the stub, so you end up with a 3" tall rubber antenna sticking up from the phone.

    I don' tknow how the internal antenna compares to a 1/2 wave dipole but can't imagine it is anywhere near as good, expect 1-2 bars more signal this way.
    AWESOME! Great tips, I am so anxious for my FME cable to arrive so I can begin this!! Cable should be arriving real soon!
    Last edited by jdeity; 03/02/2007 at 09:33 PM.
  2.    #22  
    Sorry to post so many q's to your helpful post, just want to make sure I understood properly before I begin and mess it all up because I was unclear!
  3.    #23  
    just wanted to make sure I am fully on the same page as you, so I drew a rough diagram of what I believe we are talking about. I know the two poles (the inner most wire, and the mesh one that we twist into a wire) need to be totally straight, and 180 degrees from each other. I didn't draw it that way because I wanted it to be clear what everything was. (sorry the wording is hard to see, I'm not too good at formatting pics. If you click the image, use your viewer's magnify function and then it'll all be readable)
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  4.    #24  
    here's a picture of what I'm thinking for the antenna's housing. I figure 3.5'' is ~90mm, this pic is of a 110mm antenna for a walkie talkie. I'm thinking of just buying one of these, using a drill to hollow the thing out so I just have the rubber/plastic antenna piece. Then I can feed my antenna into it (maybe put epoxy in while doing to make it solid?), and using epoxy I can make this new walkie talkie antenna mount directly on top of the treo's OEM antenna! That should look pretty stock if it comes out flawlessly!
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  5. #25  
    JD-
    Your photo of the small sma-based rubber ducky (that's what they're called) is fine, if you could finesse the cover off of it to use on the phone. That's how "professional" short antennas are made and how cell phone antennas WOULD be made if the criteria was performance rather than style.

    On your sketch...no, that's close but totally wrong. You're showing the coax shield "bent" down into a conventional "T" shaped dipole. You can't do that because of radiation effects, if you center feed a dipole it must be a "T" and you cna't just bend it over.

    An end-fed dipole would look just like a straight cord, plugged into the antenna connector and running straight up. The coax shield is pulled back down over itself--pretty much like rolling on a condom backwards from a self-dispenser, so to speak.<G> Here's a web page showing one for VHF radios:

    http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=12958

    Obviously they are smaller for cell phones, a 1900Mhz version would use legs each 1.55 inches long so it would stick up about 3-1/2" above the antenna connector. Could be jacketed in a layer or two of heat-shrink tubing--IF the tubing didn't absorb RF. (Offhand I don't know it it does...the test is to place a piece in a microwave and nuke it breifly, if it gets hot it can't be used.)

    That clear it up any?

    Thanks for the cable link, I'm waiting for an email back from him.
  6.    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
    JD-
    Your photo of the small sma-based rubber ducky (that's what they're called) is fine, if you could finesse the cover off of it to use on the phone. That's how "professional" short antennas are made and how cell phone antennas WOULD be made if the criteria was performance rather than style.
    Nice! In all honesty, if that antenna's gonna be sticking up off my phone, it would need that or something comparable to feel 'solid' to me. I keep my treo in a metal shell because I always break electronics... In that pic, I figure if I got that specific one, I'd try using pliers to rip the antenna out of it. If that didn't work, I'd hacksaw off the nub sticking out of it, then just drill into it to get all the metal out, til I had a plastic shell.



    Quote Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
    On your sketch...no, that's close but totally wrong. You're showing the coax shield "bent" down into a conventional "T" shaped dipole. You can't do that because of radiation effects, if you center feed a dipole it must be a "T" and you cna't just bend it over.

    An end-fed dipole would look just like a straight cord, plugged into the antenna connector and running straight up. The coax shield is pulled back down over itself--pretty much like rolling on a condom backwards from a self-dispenser, so to speak.<G> Here's a web page showing one for VHF radios:

    http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=12958
    Awesome! I get it now, although it certainly won't be as easy as a condom lol! Damn, I think I'm gonna get a crappy coax cable to practice that on first, so I don't massacre the 12'' I'll have to work with. I like that, it covers back over itself, so even if there was a slight RF loss in the cable, the braided copper teased back over it would help right?




    Quote Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
    Obviously they are smaller for cell phones, a 1900Mhz version would use legs each 1.55 inches long so it would stick up about 3-1/2" above the antenna connector.
    This is the figure I was working with for my lengths:
    * Sprint 1900 band = 1850-1990 MHz = 1920 MHz center freq = 1.4625" 1/4h
    Why are you thinking 1.55? (also, out of curiousity, what frequency(ies) are you targeting? Are you making a single or multiple band antenna?




    Quote Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
    Could be jacketed in a layer or two of heat-shrink tubing--IF the tubing didn't absorb RF. (Offhand I don't know it it does...the test is to place a piece in a microwave and nuke it breifly, if it gets hot it can't be used.)
    1 - do you think that it would need heat shrink tubing if it was in the walkie talkie antenna / rubber ducky? My idea was to, after making room inside of the rubber ducky, put some epoxy in there, and then slide my antenna into it, to keep it solid. Or should it just be taped, or just left free standing inside the rubber ducky? (I'll make a diagram and a better explanation for exactly what I'm envisioning in the next post, just need to make a quick sketch)



    Quote Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
    That clear it up any?

    Thanks for the cable link, I'm waiting for an email back from him.
    Yeah, that cleared up tons! Each of your responses is telling me more than I'm learning in hours of reading other related things, I appreciate your help a lot.
    (btw, I'll let you know when my cable arrives. I ordered on wednesday, and never got a confirmation email, which is kind of weird. He has thousands of feedback and a 96% positive rate which, although not perfect, is pretty good.)
  7. #27  
    "I like that, it covers back over itself, so even if there was a slight RF loss in the cable, the braided copper teased back over it would help right?"
    No, the coax won't counteract any cable loss. But since the cable length will be so close to zero before it becomes the active antenna...the cable loss won't matter much at all.
    When you roll the coax shield back down over the cable, it stretches to get fatter, which means it also gets shorter, so if you start by peeling back "exactly" the right length you wind up slightly too short. I'd probably start with 2" figuring, wtf, it's long enough I can always trim down the coax, or squish it up (that's allowed) to make the right length.

    " * Sprint 1900 band = 1850-1990 MHz = 1920 MHz center freq = 1.4625" 1/4h Why are you thinking 1.55?" I'm not sure which high-band number I grabbed, I'll have to check on that. I also haven't decided for sure about bands, since there's no sure way to make the one antenna resonant (prefectly) for both high and low band, let alone quads. The frequencies are just a little too far off from being multiples of each other to let that happen.

    I suspect there are some notes SOMEwhere on the web about what lengths are best for compromise frequencies. And that's also another reason to put a sleeve on the center conductor (making the center wire "fatter") or at least to check on how wide the antenna bandwidth is, versus the conductor diameter. I have no idea with microwave frequencies, the rule of thumb (well, physics<G>) is just that fatter has more bandwidth, so it will cover the frequency spread better. More homework to do, that's why I'm going to be working slowly.

    "do you think that it would need heat shrink tubing if it was in the walkie talkie antenna / rubber ducky?"
    I'm not at all sure you'll be able to get the cover off the ruber ducky, many of them are simply cast in place, the "wire" is embedded in silicone and then it is cured, so it is bonded and may not come off without destructing.
    Then again, I've got an old spare Ericcson TDMA low-band...they actually used to sell "regular" and "high power" versions, both snapped right into their phones but I'm sure they aren't FME connectors. I may have to play Alien Autopsy on it.<G>

    96% positive for a $5 part...Yeah. I'd take the risk too.<G>
  8.    #28  
    Okay, forgive the crappy drawings/scanner, but if you enlarge the attached pic it should show the details. There's three separate sketches in this pic, can you tell me if they're on point?

    First picture:
    this is showing the treo with the FME plugged in, with the copper mesh braided back over the outer insulation, condom style
    the center wire goes up another 1.74'' (or close to that...) after - the center wire's insulation is left intact, no center wire is exposed except the very top of the wire's surface.

    second picture:
    This shows no FME cabling whatsoever, it's my antenna's housing sketch. It shows a hollowed-out rubber ducky, whose bottom is hollowed large enough to slide onto the OEM antenna nub. The rubber ducky is female and the OEM is male. The rubber ducky slides right on top of the OEM antenna, and has four tiny screws holding it in place (only 3 in the picture, didn't want the sketch to look too confusing). I figure I'll drill a tiny hole through both the rubber ducky and the OEM antenna (after removing the OEM's internal pieces), and then use 4 small screws to secure it. This is just structural, I'll be using epoxy or somethign over it later. I've never worked with epoxy, so I don't know its strength, but I figure that with the 3.5'' of rubber ducky, the torque on the connection between the rubber ducky and the OEM antenna could be strong, so I'm thinking screws + epoxy would be the most durable fabrication here.

    third picture:
    This shows the FME plugged in, and the OEM antenna, but no rubber ducky. This is how I plan to wire it, I'd have the FME cable come out of the external antenna port, and go directly into a hole I'll drill in the OEM antenna. I will also drill a hole in the top of the OEM antenna, where the end-fed dipole's lowest part will sit.

    Does this all look good? I'm thinking my only real hurdle is how to have as little slack as possible between the FME port and where the FME cable enters the OEM antenna. That, and getting the mesh braiding to start (or end, technically) as low inside of the antenna as possible, since any higher just means a taller antenna. That'll probably be the tradeoff, it'll be about how deep inside of the OEM antenna I can have the mesh end, and thus my antenna's length begin.

    Hopefully these are valid pics, I'm thinking if it's done this way, and epoxy'd (sp?) correctly, this shouldn't look half bad (I'm a dork and actually prefer a longer antenna, but just in general if this comes out well it should look pretty 'stock' or 'aftermarket', not like crap)
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  9.    #29  
    (sorry about the sizing of that pic, i'm not good at scanning/sizing. On my pc it opens waaay to small to see details, and if i magnify it, it becomes huge, but details can be seen properly)
  10.    #30  
    (WAIT!! Just had an idea. I was planning to use screws for structural safety when putting the walkietalkie/rubber ducky antenna onto the OEM antenna. Because screws wouldn't look good, I'd have to epoxy. I just started thinking that if there were some kind of 'glue' compound that was just insanely strong, I could use that as 'lube' when i put the female rubber ducky onto the male OEM antenna, and that would hold. I could cut the bottom of the rubber ducky so it would sit properly on the treo's shell, and there wouldn't be any need for epoxying it after!!!! Does anyone know a product like that? I know with metal stuff it'd be 'jb weld' or 'jd weld', something like that. I just need to make sure it's structurally sound so it will be on there for more than a week!)
  11. #31  
    JB weld will stick to practically anything. I would try some out with similar pieces of material(treo plastic/rubber ducky) if possible.

    I have tried many projects with epoxies and glue compounds and have not found any IMO that are good enouph for your application.

    I believe there are a few types of JB weld for different purposes. The only stuff I have used is the normal two tube mix type. I am sure that JB will bond to plastic but have no clue about the rubber...

    From their site.
    What does it bond to?
    Virtually any combination of iron, steel, copper, aluminum, brass, bronze, pewter, porcelain, ceramic, marble, glass, PVC & ABS, concrete, fiberglass, wood, fabric, paper -- just about any porous and non-porous material.
    Edit
    Thinking about it, after looking at your drawings, you might be able to keep the rubber ducky on with the ext plug, keeping it taught.
    Another thought would be to take the treo antanna out(or use another for experiment) and make a mold of the mounting part of it and intergrate your rubber ducky onto the new mount you make.
    Last edited by BlindDude; 03/03/2007 at 02:26 PM.
  12.    #32  
    the only problem with trying to make it fit perfectly where the OEM antenna sits is that I'd need to anchor it in somehow, whereas if I just slide the OEM into it, then I just need to bond it to that. I think if it's cut properly (the rubber ducky's bottom), it should fit very, very flush. Maybe a combination of jb weld and screws, dunno, you're right I definitely should play with combinations before doing it on the phone. I'm gg grab some bonding materials and play around while waiting on the FME piece
  13.    #33  
    The beauty of sliding a new rubber ducky over my OEM antenna nub is that the OEM antenna nub slopes. That means I just need to make sure my rubber ducky's base's circumference is somewhere between the circumferences of the OEM nub's top and bottom. Then I just slide it onto the OEM nub as far as it goes, secure with screws if necessary, and I'm golden. Oh and I'd use sandpaper or something to make it 'flow' into the OEM nub so it didn't look too ghetto
  14. #34  
    Well, I'm not looking to change the OEM stubby antenna. I'm looking to plug the new one into the external antenna hole, and then have it extend upwards behind and then above the internal stubby antenna.

    If I wanted a better antenna all the time, I'd get a spare OEM antenna, open it up, and then drill a hole down the middle (or something) and put the whole new antenna in the same location, using the spare OEM as a base. You could probably compromise and just put a 1/4 wave in instead of the OEM antenna, so it would be about 1.5" tall instead of, what, the 3/4" or so that it is now?
  15.    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
    Well, I'm not looking to change the OEM stubby antenna. I'm looking to plug the new one into the external antenna hole, and then have it extend upwards behind and then above the internal stubby antenna.

    If I wanted a better antenna all the time, I'd get a spare OEM antenna, open it up, and then drill a hole down the middle (or something) and put the whole new antenna in the same location, using the spare OEM as a base. You could probably compromise and just put a 1/4 wave in instead of the OEM antenna, so it would be about 1.5" tall instead of, what, the 3/4" or so that it is now?
    If I just put 1/4 wave, that's 1.5'', but don't I need to have ground that's equal?
    Also, I don't think I explained the antenna fabrication properly. I'm going to be hollowing out the OEM antenna nub, and just using it as a solid base, upon which I'll put a rubber ducky, to hold my ~3.5'' antenna. This seems to be a great approach in terms of both signal gain and durability, no? If I only made it 1.5'', it wouldn't be as good, and I don't mind it being 3.5'', so may as well.










    Wanna hear something unbelievable? My antenna hasn't even shipped (not seller's fault) yet!!! There was an ebay glitch! I never got an auto generated response from the seller, which I thought was weird. I thought nothign of it, but logged into ebay today to check it out since I didn't get it in the mail yet. Sure enough, ebay has no record of me winning (well, using buy it now) the item! I definitely did, as paypal knows the auction # and the item description and everything, and the money has gone from my account to theirs! I emailed the seller, who does large volume, to let him know, since he probably didn't even notice the $10 that came from nowhere, and if my ebay main page isn't showing me as having won it, his probably isn't either.

    That means the earliest it'll get shipped is monday, damnit.
  16.    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
    Here's a web page showing one for VHF radios:

    http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=12958
    I was re-reading the link you gave me, and had 2 questions I can't figure out.

    First,

    "However; practical considerations of mounting and support tend to limit it to the span from 10meters (28mhz) to 70cm (440mhz). Below about 25mhz the housing tube becomes very long and can be difficult to support. Above about 450mhz you are pushing the frequency limits of the coax which are affected by the lower braid section of the dipole."

    If I'm aiming for 1900MHz, this makes it seem I'm goign to be sabotaging myself... Am I missing something?




    "For your first cut on the braid use the formula

    (7500 / frequency) X velocity factor = length (in centimetres)

    It is very important that you know the velocity factor of the RG-8U coax you are using for the antenna. If you have the .80 type, cutting for .66 will make it too short. If you have the .66 cutting for .80 could cost you a lot of hours trimming it down. So, be sure first.
    My coax was the .66 velocity factor type so substituting into our formula we get:

    (7500/146) X .66 = 33.91 cm (13.35 inches)"


    He's saying it's important to know the velocity factor of my cable, and that the shielding that is rolled back over the coax needs to have that taken into account (making it a slightly differrent distance than the top part of the dipole). This I haven't made sense of yet, nor would I know how to know my cable's velocity factor

    Also, in the actual diagram he posted (attached to this post for reference's sake), he shows a specific amount of wire from the FME connection before the braiding begins (or ends, technically. The braid's lowest point). Is that important, I was trying to keep that as short as possible, but coudl adapt it longer/shorter if necessary.
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  17.    #37  
    btw hellosailor, they fixed the problem with the FME order, it's on its way. Any thoughts regarding the "Above about 450mhz you are pushing the frequency limits of the coax which are affected by the lower braid section of the dipole" statement that site made? It's kind of worrying me, I hope I don't make this whole thing just to find out my design barely improves upon the OEM stubby antenna
  18. #38  
    jd-
    I gave you that URL to show you the overall concept only--do NOT try to build that antenna, it is designed for 144mHz and 440mHz operations on ham radio. Similarly, the RG8U coaxial cable they are using is NOT suitable for microwave use.
    The Wilson antenna cable you are getting probably uses LMR400 or a similar coax which is designed for microwave use. So, as long as you make the physical measurements for antenna length to match the frequency you are using, it should be fine.

    Something else occurred to me which I have no had the chance to test. If you look at the Treo you'll notice there's metal running down both sides, the plastic case does not cover it completely. This may actually be the metal chassis gorund of the phone, in which case Palm may be using it as the active ground (counterpoise) of the antenna. In many handheld radios it is assumed that your hand will contact the radio and then you also become part of the ground side of the antenna. (Putting the phone/radio in a thin case doesn't really affect that, RF bleeds right through.)

    Now, if you want to check this out before I can, take a DMM or ohmmeter and test the connection from the outside of the FME connector (i.e., any part except the center connection) to the metal that runs down both sides of the phone. If it reads near-zero ohms...that means the metal is part of the antenna and a dipole of any type is not necessary. In this case a simple single whip antenna is probably all that would be needed. Most likely, leaving an inch or so of the outer braid intact and running the bare inner conductor up about 1.5" above the body of the phone would perform as well as anything else.

    With microwaves, even a "small" change is a big change, so there's some room for experimenting. Or, a real microwave engineer.<G>
  19.    #39  
    Good stuff! I will test that (read: i will go to a local electronics store and hope they hook it up for me lol)

    I just found something that may save part of the build, although with your new information, I may just dump this altogether. I've already emailed the retailer to see how I'd plug it to a treo, w/o cables, only connectors, but what do you think of this?
    http://www.hyperlinktech.com/web/1.9...a_3dbi_rsp.php

    It has a female, reverse polarity SMA plug. Now, their site has many connectors, but doesn't mention FME once. I've wiki'd both connectors, adn they seem to be the same thing (a regular FME and a regular SMA, i know the reverse polarity needs to be kept like-kind).

    That'd be my rubber ducky, and already has the antenna made in it. I was thinking that rigging that up, and keeping it stable, may be easier than building mine and protecting with a rubber ducky, although what you're now mentioning is probably gonna change that.
    Maybe seeing this would help you better see the side pieces:
    http://treotricks.blogspot.com/2005/...-650-side.html
    I'm gonna try to figure out a place that woudl test that for me (whether they're grounding), but dunno how well that'll go..

    (in that writeup for the side panels, he mentions the 'chrome' side pieces. They just look like silver-painted plastic on mine..)
    Now, when you say there's metal running down both sides, you mean those long, silver slivers, right? I've always assumed that was painted plastic!
  20. #40  
    That external antenna would work, the problem is they don't come in FME flavor.

    I checked the antenna connection and the frame sides, they don't seem to make electrical contact, so it goes back to either making an end-fed dipole and running the whole thing some 3" tall, or making a "T" dipole with 1.5" sticking up an the other side running flat on the back of the phone.

    Decisions, decisions.<G>

    Never heard back from the cable guy, did you get your cables from them?

    The earphone in the antenna very clever, I like it! I wouldn't have to carry my phone upside down any more. I won't touch one until or unless I see an FCC SAR compliance test though, because running the earphone wires right up inside the antenna stub means the earphone will become a parasitic antenna--and the phone will be transmitting extra radiation into your ear.

    Very much NOT A GOOD THING, and without RF field measurements to confirm it, I wouldn't want to do it that way.

    On the other hand...if he intentionally coupled it, and then put a choke or filter in the earwire to stop the RF 1.5" above the phone...that might be a very very good thing.

    (All measurements here are approximate!)

    I very much like the way he tapped in a cord loop to the side frame, when I'm on boats I'm much happier having the phone tethered to me.
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