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  1.    #1  
    My 680 has typically been a great performer, very consistently using 0.5% battery per hour or better in standby mode (with phone radio on, BT, IR, Timesync off). The camera seemed to be the only problem that seriously affected battery consumption under these standby conditions, and that was fixed with the patch and was not much of a problem as I didnt use the camera anyway. I have been going along now quite happily for weeks, and love my 680, but twice in the last 2 days, the drain rate has substantially increased in standby mode (from the usual 0.5% to 2 or 3% per hour). I fixed this both times with a soft reset, immediately bringing the drain rate back to 0.5% per hour. I am trying to determine what triggers it, no obvious pattern as yet, but I think this might be the key that explains why some people get great performance (0.5%/hour in standby mode), while others dont seem to be able to get less than 2 or 3% drain/hour on standby. I am a scientist and cant resist the temptation to experiment and work this out, and would like to ask for help if I may (because my own experience is just that, and it would be far more convincing if this happens to more than one 680). Can I suggest that people who are unable to improve on 2 or 3% per hour might (if they are experimentally inclined and can be bothered) try a soft reset (remove battery, wait a minute, then put it back), and measure the drain rate on standby (phone radio on, no data activity, and other stuff (BT, IR, Timesync) off), to see if it improves? eg. this could be done last thing at night, when these functions probably wont be needed, and measured the next morning. I predict you will see very little drain (roughly 0.5%/hour if you are in a good signal area). If it does improve, but then reverts to 2% or worse under similar 'standby' conditions, what were the possible causes. Please post your experience with this in this thread.

    PS. It is already established that BT, IR, timesync, data activity can influence battery drain in standby mode, but these things are expected to cause extra drain and can be controlled by switching them off. Signal strength is also obviously another factor but that isnt the problem in my case and I am betting it is not the problem for many other users. What I am more interested in is what is triggering the drain that seems to only stop after a soft reset.
    Last edited by DIG; 02/01/2007 at 07:19 AM.
  2. #2  
    One more guess about the battery drain. I've had my 680 about one month, did the reset while charging plus applied the patch and normally see less than 1% drain per hour. While traveling (with a local SIM when possible or with my US SIM for extravagant roaming), battery drain has also been moderate and acceptable. When I am at home however, from time to time the drain increases dramatically. If I shut off the phone radio (which a soft reset can also do), drain becomes negligible. My prior phone, Motorola V600, behaved the same way at home. I live on the ragged edge of a service area and tho I don't understand how circuits get allocated, I suspect that if I lose signal and the phone has to search to reconnect, this eats the battery. If I left the old phone on in the car, in a basement level carport, the battery died very quickly. Is it possible that folks with sudden battery drain are passing thru or living in poor signal areas as well? Not very scientific I'm afraid - when in doubt, blame the network.
  3.    #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by RedandUnlocked View Post
    Is it possible that folks with sudden battery drain are passing thru or living in poor signal areas as well? Not very scientific I'm afraid - when in doubt, blame the network.
    Yes, I think signal strength will certainly affect battery drain rate, at least while the signal is weak, but it is harder to imagine that this might trigger a high drain rate that can only be corrected by a soft reset, which immediately corrects the problem. In my case, it seems to happen in an area (where I live) where the signal is pretty stable and quite good, so I dont think this is the cause, but you are right, signal strength will definitely affect battery drain rate and may be the cause for different levels of performance with different 680s.
  4. nelson1's Avatar
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    #4  
    The three possible battery problems/solutions that have been posted widely can be found at this thread:
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...d.php?t=134559
    --Nelson
    _______________________________________
    Treo Pro - Sprint
  5. ohbw's Avatar
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    #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by DIG View Post
    It is already established that BT, IR, timesync, data activity can influence battery drain in standby mode, but these things can be controlled by switching them off. Signal strength is also obviously another factor...
    The biggest factor is ownership. BT, IR, timesync, data activity, connecting to a network, having a camera -- these are all things that this pricey little device is designed to do, advertised as doing, sold to us to do, and (in theory, not in practice) relied upon by us to do.

    Where we are with the 680 and these continuing, endless, circular, searching conversations about how to make it work somewhere within shouting distance of "as advertised" is tantamount to this: Each of us has purchased the TurboLemonator 5000, the latest, greatest automotive wonder (two full years in development!) from the Palmerized Automobile Company -- V8, 4WD, B&O stereo, automatic parallel parking, heated massaging seats, talking navigation, sunroof. We paid a premium price for it over other cars because it has and does all those things.

    What we've discovered, however, is that it runs on three cylinders, through one drive wheel, on tires that leak constantly -- but it only does that if you turn off the stereo, unplug the seats, forget about ever using the nav, weld the sunroof shut, and make only left turns. In other words, if you can strip away and turn off everything that made you buy it in the first place, you can find a skateboard underneath that will get you down to 7-11.

    And, on top of this, we're spending our valuable lives -- the ones we valued so much that we parted with a lot of hard earned money to buy this time- and labor-saving device -- trying to sort the TurboLemonator out for the good folks at Palmerized. We're not automotive engineers, we don't have the diagnostic tools they have or know how to create our own, and -- this is a biggie, so I'll shout it from the rooftop -- IT AIN'T OUR RESPONSIBILITY! -- but here we are: the blind bumping into the blind, staying up late at night, switching things off and on, standing on one foot, nailing a chicken's foot to the front door, reading pig entrails in the alleyways of TreoCentral, to try to just get to that skateboard. Why are we doing it? Because they couldn't be bothered before they started prematurely and avariciously vacuuming up our money for a half-baked product.

    It's beyond ridiculous. It begs, begs, for a class action suit and a massive publicity campaign against Palm. If we were actually talking about a car, or a regional jet, it would be well underway. But they've calculated that for a device that costs less than $500, people will tolerate a lot of suffering, and they can eat a lot of nice long lunches on the money they'd otherwise have had to spend to sort out the product BEFORE RELEASE (the accepted protocol).

    I'm inclined to demonstrate to them that their calculation is wrong. I went to law school and I'm sick enough about this whole experience (Cingular's answer: "send in the phone and we'll send you a new one" -- yeah, right, the repackaged one that another guy sent back in two days ago for the same problems ...) that I'm willing to organize this if there's enough support. I also write for a living so creating a PRPRPR $conflagration$ $is$ $doable$ $as$ $well$.

    If you've made your way through this post and feel that the pesitilence that Palm has released upon us is so egregious and irresponsible and wrong, and would be inclined to join such a suit, just post a simple post below saying "Class Action: Yes!" in the first line of your post. If there's enough strong feeling that this should happen, I'll start a new post with Class Action in the title, and we'll move forward. Please move to that post when you see it appear so we can establish a database of customers.

    http://www.yenibirhayat.net/imgrt/oy.../lemon-car.jpg
    Brian
  6. #6  
    I think there is a bit of over drama there. I could get 2-3 days out of my 650 with a 2400 mAh battery. I can't expect more than a day with 1200 mAh.

    And we're not talking performance, we're talking gas mileage. If you run the A/C, and the seat heaters, and open the windows and drive at 100 MPH with the stereo blaring, yes, you will use a lot more gasoline.

    The 680 has some problems. And I think some of the phones have problems beyond the Camera drain. My 1st 680 would run 10% per hour with the IR turned on. Most others are not seeing this.

    Get a grip. Use the functions you need and accept that the 680 has a much smaller and lighter battery than the 650. Keep a charger handy. and chill out.
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms. Who's bringing the chips?
  7. jfme's Avatar
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    #7  
    If you do not like the Treo 680, just return it and find something else. This is probably the best message a manufacturer can get.
  8. #8  
    ABSOLUTELY!! AGREED.

    Palm and other companies need to start realizing that they can't heft expensive JUNK on an unsuspecting public, LIE OUTRIGHT about it's capabilities and laugh at us poor, beleagured users behind our backs.

    The real crime here is the "300 hours standby" BS. (Yeah..with the phone OFF, maybe!) They should be held accountable for that if nothing else. That is outright LYING, and wrong on so many levels it's not even worth discussing.

    It's high past time to make a statement. Make a point. That this type of stuff must END.

    I'd be behind an effort like this 100%.

    (BTW, if there were ANY viable alternative to Palm, I'd be there in a nanosecond. Too bad there's not - it's almost enough to make me form a company to do what Palm & MS haven't been able to..I mean..there's MILLIONS OF DOLLARS just sitting out there, waiting for someone to do a SmartPhone "right"..)

    - PB
  9. ohbw's Avatar
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    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by red-beard View Post
    I think there is a bit of over drama there. I could get 2-3 days out of my 650 with a 2400 mAh battery. I can't expect more than a day with 1200 mAh.

    And we're not talking performance, we're talking gas mileage. If you run the A/C, and the seat heaters, and open the windows and drive at 100 MPH with the stereo blaring, yes, you will use a lot more gasoline.

    The 680 has some problems. And I think some of the phones have problems beyond the Camera drain. My 1st 680 would run 10% per hour with the IR turned on. Most others are not seeing this.

    Get a grip. Use the functions you need and accept that the 680 has a much smaller and lighter battery than the 650. Keep a charger handy. and chill out.
    I think there's a big of over-boot licking here. Palm employee, are you, or apologist extraordinaire? And a patronizing one, too. Did you get 3 days out of your 650 by turning off every function on it, RedBeard, or was it actually useful as the device you intended to buy? You make it sound like it's reckless to actually turn on the functions the phone was designed with. That ain't gas mileage, Your Lordship, that's AC, Nav, windshield wipers, lights, and the ability to roll the windows up and down.

    "Keep a charger handy and chill out"? It's a PDA phone, Professor. Its express purpose is to allow you to phone, email, take pictures, etc. without being plugged into a wall -- it's primarily marketed to businesspeople to facilitate doing business in a mobile fashion. And nobody can get a full day to do those things, which is why all the uproar. No one, including you, bought a 680 with a sticker on the box that said, "1/4 the performance of the 650 as long as you turn off every usable function and spend your days on forums looking for tricks to make it last past lunch. And wear a baseball cap with solar panels built in everywhere you go!"

    You chill out, take a pill, and get a grip, and I don't mean on Palm's teat.
    Brian
  10. jfme's Avatar
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    #10  
    I see no need to make a lawsuit out of this. Just because you don't like the phone now you want money??? That is absurd and is what makes products super expensive for the rest of us.

    If the Treo 680 does not live up to your needs, return the darn phone and get your money back.

    Trying to get rich with ridiculous lawsuits is pathetic.
  11. ohbw's Avatar
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    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by jfme View Post
    I see no need to make a lawsuit out of this. Just because you don't like the phone now you want money??? That is absurd and is what makes products super expensive for the rest of us.

    If the Treo 680 does not live up to your needs, return the darn phone and get your money back.

    Trying to get rich with ridiculous lawsuits is pathetic.
    I'll use the Really Big Crayon so you can understand: Don't want money! Want phone that works as advertised! Can't get money back, purchase of toy phone locked me into contract! Provider only willing to send other phone, which is repackaged phone that some other guy having exact same problem sent in two days ago! Not ridiculous to expect consumer products company to deliver what they explicitly promise; actually a foundation of our society and legal system! Otherwise your children constantly wearing flammable pajamas, and you holding expensive phone you bought for business tool (i.e., device to keep children fed and housed) that is only useful as a toy in your children's games! Consumer protection laws good for you, even if you can't be bothered to understand them!

    Finally, if you knew anything about CA lawsuits, you'd know no one gets rich. The company just gets forced to correct its fraud, and people get something like what they pay for. Thinking that's pathetic is, well, pathetic.
    Brian
  12. ediamond's Avatar
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    #12  
    Um, I think you misunderstadn the purpose of a class action lawsuit. If Palm had been completely honest with its customers, by not claiming a 300 hour standby time, but not releasing a problem with a KNOWN flaw. The camera battery thing was KNOWN by Palm when the 680 launched, but they did not yet have a fix. So instead of immediately informing everyone, and saying "don't use the camera until we get you a fix," they instead played dumb, and their representatives actually LIED to customers. When I called tech support they said there was no known battery issue. Clearly there was. Palm's early premature release was driven not by its customers but by its stock price.

    The purpose of a class action suit is to punish Palm for what amounts to deceptive practices. If Palm had done the right thing by its customers in the first place, if they did not have such a culture of crap customer service, then there woudl be no need for any of this, and these boards woudl be a lot less active. For example...go look at the Blackberry forums...their products may not be as capable, but they are a whole lot more stable. Updates are released quickly (there were 2 within one month of the release of the Pearl to correct minor but annoying problems).

    I'm not hating on the Palm, as I've been with Palm OS since the get go (I even used to freelance for USR when they were still in Illinois). I love the Palm. But their crap management team (and let's be honest, its CRAP) and user unfriendly customer support coupled with a lack of innovation makes me seriously wonder whether Palm is long for this world. It's sad. I want them to pick up the glove and fight back! I want them to do right by us. I want a phone that works as promised without having to buy $50 worth of utilities, like Butler and Volumecare.

    How hard can it be? This treo form-factor and Palm OS has been around forever. It is not as if they are having to reinvent the wheel here. You'd think after 5 years they would have figured this out.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by ohbw View Post
    it's primarily marketed to businesspeople to facilitate doing business in a mobile fashion.
    Wrong, it's marketed to mobile accomplishers aka mainstream people/non geeks not to business people or to PalmOS fanboys/girls like us.
    ~Jessi~

    Handspring Visor > Handspring Visor Edge - Silver > Handspring Treo 90 > Palm Tungsten T3 > Palm Treo 680 - Arctic
  14. jfme's Avatar
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    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by ohbw View Post
    I'll use the Really Big Crayon so you can understand: Don't want money! Want phone that works as advertised! Can't get money back, purchase of toy phone locked me into contract! Provider only willing to send other phone, which is repackaged phone that some other guy having exact same problem sent in two days ago! Not ridiculous to expect consumer products company to deliver what they explicitly promise; actually a foundation of our society and legal system! Otherwise your children constantly wearing flammable pajamas, and you holding expensive phone you bought for business tool (i.e., device to keep children fed and housed) that is only useful as a toy in your children's games! Consumer protection laws good for you, even if you can't be bothered to understand them!

    Finally, if you knew anything about CA lawsuits, you'd know no one gets rich. The company just gets forced to correct its fraud, and people get something like what they pay for. Thinking that's pathetic is, well, pathetic.
    You can get out of the contract for a period of time (15 days, 30 days?).

    My first phone had a defective keyboard. Since I sent it back right away (before 30 days), I was sent a new phone (sealed retail box). The second phone worked fine after the camera patch (~200 hours of standby time). Up to 300 hours just means "UP TO" 300 hours. It does not mean that you get a minimum of 300 hours.

    I think the first 15-30 days you must check to make sure the phone is working properly so you get either a new replacement or your money back. If after this period you expect to get a brand new phone, imagine how much this would cost.

    If you buy a new car you cannot return it if it is defective or you did not like its performance. The dealer will not exchange your car with a new one off the lot either. Most likely, he would take your car and fix it.
  15. ohbw's Avatar
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    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by jfme View Post
    If you buy a new car you cannot return it if it is defective or you did not like its performance. The dealer will not exchange your car with a new one off the lot either. Most likely, he would take your car and fix it.
    Please go read up on lemon laws before you expound on them. You know not whereof you speak.
    Brian
  16. #16  
    Returning this thread to its purpose, I have noticed a dramtic drain after using PDANet. A soft reset solves the problem. All other fixes have done nothing for me but with patience, I have seen my drain average between 1-2% per hour, acceptable for me as I have an AC charger at home and at work, a DC charger in my car and (USB) in my laptop bag. It also appears that the battery meter is severly flawed and in my opinion over reports drainage that may not be really happening. In short, the phone is fine as far as I'm concerned. Issues? We all have them, but I dont think they are fatal.
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidk6235 View Post
    Returning this thread to its purpose, I have noticed a dramtic drain after using PDANet. A soft reset solves the problem. All other fixes have done nothing for me but with patience, I have seen my drain average between 1-2% per hour, acceptable for me as I have an AC charger at home and at work, a DC charger in my car and (USB) in my laptop bag. It also appears that the battery meter is severly flawed and in my opinion over reports drainage that may not be really happening. In short, the phone is fine as far as I'm concerned. Issues? We all have them, but I dont think they are fatal.
    I noticed a drain like this after using PDANet too - the battery actually felt warm and a soft reset did resolve the issue.
  18.    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidk6235 View Post
    Returning this thread to its purpose, I have noticed a dramtic drain after using PDANet. A soft reset solves the problem. All other fixes have done nothing for me but with patience, I have seen my drain average between 1-2% per hour, acceptable for me as I have an AC charger at home and at work, a DC charger in my car and (USB) in my laptop bag. It also appears that the battery meter is severly flawed and in my opinion over reports drainage that may not be really happening. In short, the phone is fine as far as I'm concerned. Issues? We all have them, but I dont think they are fatal.
    OK, I was just about to give up on any chance of some constructive feedback and discussion, so thanks davidk, jsgreen and redbeard. This is exactly the type of discussion and information I was hoping to see on this thread.

    Clearly, there are people who visit this forum to try and work out any problems they are having in a constructive way, hopefully helping others who may like their 680 and want to know how to improve its performance, and then there are people who just want to lay the boots in. There are plenty of threads where that has already been done, but I am sure it isnt helping anyone.

    A couple of responses to some of the posts:
    Nelson.
    The three possible battery problems/solutions that have been posted widely can be found at this thread:
    Thanks - these three things are widely known of course, but they are not the solution to the problem I have raised - ie. not about the camera problem, not about the cradle incompatibility and not about how to do a reset (which fixes the problem, but I am trying to work out what causes the problem).

    Redbeard.
    I think there is a bit of over drama there. I could get 2-3 days out of my 650 with a 2400 mAh battery. I can't expect more than a day with 1200 mAh....The 680 has some problems. And I think some of the phones have problems beyond the Camera drain. My 1st 680 would run 10% per hour with the IR turned on. Most others are not seeing this.
    I agree - the 680 is obviously going to last longer if functions that are not required are disabled. Various people have posted their observations to help others understand what they can do to optimise time from charge to charge without being an inconvenience. The 'camera problem' was identified through forums like this, and people immediately had a way to avoid the major problem causing battery drain until it was fixed. IR seems to cause a significant increase in power consumption in some instances but not others. It is a function that people might check to see if it is causing them problems. If they never need to use IR, then that is an easy solution until a fix is issued, or may indicate they need to get a replacement.
    Last edited by DIG; 01/31/2007 at 06:09 PM.
  19.    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidk6235 View Post
    Returning this thread to its purpose, I have noticed a dramtic drain after using PDANet. A soft reset solves the problem.....
    JSGreen
    I noticed a drain like this after using PDANet too - the battery actually felt warm and a soft reset did resolve the issue.
    Unfortunately, this thread was sidetracked by a couple of disgruntled users pushing for class action against Palm, but there were some interesting observations that were reported in amongst the complaining, such as the two quoted above. Any other constructive observations or insight into activities that might trigger the higher battery drain rate, that can only be reversed by a soft reset? ie. I am not referring to things that increase battery consumption until they are turned off, such as bluetooth - that is normal and expected. I am referring to things that cause the battery drain to increase noticably, even after the activity is ceased/disabled, and require a soft reset to get back to the lower drain rate (like the old camera problem). I have seen several posts where people comment about this happening, and if enough people are interested in trying the small expt I suggested in the initial post for this thread, it should be possible to determine what causes it.
  20. #20  
    I never had the camera drain on the first phone. I think I expeienced on the second phone. I did not use the camera function to take a picture. I was showing several people a picture that was taken earlier and left the phone in the media mode. Phone had been reset and re-loaded from a hot-sync, but I had not applied the patch.

    Power usage on the 1st unit: Dramatic usage after turning on IR Beam receive, as documented in my experiments. This is not occuring on the 2nd unit.

    2nd unit, when Bluetooth and IR are turned on, the power drops quite rapidly. I don't need IR turned on most of the time. I also notice that when Bluetooth and the Network are connected that power level drops quickly, but not as fast as with BT & IR. Saturday I will run another set of formal experiments.

    For the off topic section in this thread, I stick by my assertion that there is a bit too much drama here.
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms. Who's bringing the chips?
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