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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by DIG View Post
    What else triggers the battery drain problem...
    That's an easy one:
    For my Treo, that's GSM usage.
    And it's even nicely reproducible.

    Sometimes, after GSM usage (phone call, text message reception, probably even location updates?), the 680 does not put its GSM module back into the usual sleep mode.

    Whenever this is the case, my Treo burns about 35mA more power than it usually does. Even when (the Palm part is) off, which explains the quick battery drain in this state.

    I attached a screenshot that shows this behaviour. GSM was active, GPRS/EDGE off, BT off, IR off. "1a" and "1b" show the desired power consumption. At point "2" after a phone call, it burned an excessive amount of power, even with only light usage (see the few on/off events at the bottom). After a soft-reset (SR) everything was back to normal.

    Using the "Treo Battery" app, it is quite easy to monitor your Treo's usual power consumption. Launch it, leave it settle a few moment and look at the "current" value. This should get quite stable after some seconds. If you don't change your setup (screen brightness, etc.), this default power consumption should not change very much for your Treo. (*)

    If you are interested, you might want to monitor this power consumption after your phone calls for a while.

    For testing purposes, I called my Treo a few times from another phone. Usually, after the second or third call, the power consumption would not return to its normal value, but exceed it by the mentioned ~35mA.

    I have attached a second picture, showing an example of a Treo Battery graph. The three spikes are the three test phone calls. After the third call, the consumption stays at an increased level.

    To "fix" this, you can either power-cycle your GSM part OR (and this is, where it gets funny) make another phone call. I successfully brought my Treo's power consumption back to normal just by making another phone call (even with just letting it ring for a few seconds and not establishing a connection at all).

    So I join the users who blame the GSM part. Personally, I think the Treo sometimes makes a mistake after completing a GSM function. Not too implausible given the fact that Palm uses a completely new broadcom chipset for GSM and there usually are no issues if the GSM is switched off... (If this is the case, we might be hunting at the wrong place, if we try to find 3rd party apps causing the problem.)
    But I'm just speculating here.

    I admit that I didn't do the same tests with a clean Treo after a hard-reset, because there are simply too many reports of "naked" Treos having the same power issues.


    Greetings!


    (*) Regarding the absolute current values, please keep in mind that the they vary with your battery level. E.g. my Treo usually uses 112mA at full battery (1/4 screen brightness, keypad light off, GSM on, GPRS/EDGE/BT/IR off). At 30% this would translate to ~135mA due to the lower voltage of the battery. So only compare absolute values at the same battery level.
    Attached Images Attached Images
  2. #82  
    Okay guys and gals, which battery monitor software works best with the 680? And by best, I guess I mean the least intrusive and power robbing?

    Thanks for the help!
  3. #83  
    There's only one usable historical monitor, Battery Graph. There's the Battery.prc which shows the current state.

    Neither are good to use if you're using background applications running.
  4.    #84  
    Gday Glen
    That is a very informative post - nicely supported with evidence too! Do you think it always requires multiple calls in a short time, or is it random (ie. might happen after 1 call, but might take 3 or 4)? I havent seen the Treo battery software, but it looks good. Will try it - is it free? Where can I find it?

    I havent had the big drain for ages now (not since I set up this thread), but now I think about it, I havent had a series of calls in short succession for ages either (bit sad that, bring out the violins). But maybe this is a common cause. I will get Treo Battery and test it - hope others do too!
    DIG
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by DIG View Post
    Gday Glen
    Do you think it always requires multiple calls in a short time, or is it random (ie. might happen after 1 call, but might take 3 or 4)? I havent seen the Treo battery software, but it looks good. Will try it - is it free? Where can I find it?
    I think, it is purely random, if the Treo starts to burn more power after e.g. a phone call.
    For example, I had a single call lately, after which it happened. So I don't think it only occurs after many calls in a row.

    Treo Battery can be found here:

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...82&postcount=9


    When monitoring the current values, just let it settle for some time (usually a few seconds, one quickly gains some experience with this) and don't forget that the absolute power consumption changes with the battery voltage, as I mentioned in my post.


    Since, there is hardly any documentation about Treo Battery's options, I would strongly suggest not to fiddle with them. Probably except of the following:

    After a soft reset with Treo Battery installed, its option "System/Sleep Mode/Turn on orange LED in REM sleep" gets automatically activated. This signals the Treo being in REM sleep by turning on the green (!) LED. If this is unwanted, this should be turned off again.

    Although this is also very interesting: For example, one can see, that the Treo usually wakes up shortly (without turning on the screen) a few seconds after it has been turned off.

    Sometimes, it even suffers from insomnia and wakes up a lot (up to a few times per minute). This correlates very nicely with the on/off events recorded by BatteryGraph. Usually my Treo always settled after some time sitting still without usage, but there's probably another long post that could be written about the excessive on/off events happing sometimes (and also draining the battery)...
  6. #86  
    For me it turned out to be my Treo 650 charging cradle that I was using for my new Treo 680. It worked fine and charged fine, however, battery time was awful. I did some checking on plam's website under the Treo 680 section and there was a section labeled battery, which goes into details about a number of things that could cause the problem, including the one which was utimately causing mine. My Treo 650 cradle, as well as a number of other cradles mentioned there were known to cause the Treo 680 to exhibit this behavior(Bad Battery Time). Sooooo... now since I've been using the original shipped charging cable(and none else) that came with my Treo680to charge it, my problems have gone away..... go figure.... I think it has something to do with incorrect pinouts or something like that mentioned at the site..... check it out....
    That's right I'm Bad!!!!!!
  7.    #87  
    ahh, so TreoBattery is actually Battery.prc. I have read a few posts that this seems to cause problems for the 680. Might skip on that one, but thanks for the info anyway. I can still check the concept that the GSM triggers drains using battery graph.
  8.    #88  
    Glen you really seem to be on to something. Yesterday I made a phone call with my 680, and fortuitously (because this hasnt happened to me for weeks, since I started this thread), it proceeded to drain at about 2% per hour for the next 8 hours, with lots of on/off events, even though it wasnt being used. So, I tested your threory, and I called it from my home phone (without answering), the drain rate returned to the normal 0.5 percent per hour immediately. The only other thing I did was to turn the sound to mute before I called it (because it was late and I didnt want to wake anyone), so I suppose that may have had some role, but normally, I would have had to perform a soft reset to restore the low drain rate. It would be good to know if anyone else makes similar observations? This may turn out to be a bug that Palm can fix.
  9. #89  
    a cell site that has "gone bad" causing poor/no data throughput. The Cingular site nearest my house (and it's VERY near my house; it's only a few hundred feet away) has been acting up the past several days, causing me to see very poor data throughput (voice is fine) and massive battery drain while at home when a data connection is active -- battery drain is normal everywhere else. I've reported the bad site to Cingular...in the meantime I've been making sure that Chatter is not running and data is disconnected while at home.

    -SC
    "Never put off until tomorrow what you can do today. There might be a law against it by that time." -/usr/games/fortune
  10. #90  
    I think Glen is here on the right track that the GSM part is creating the battery drain. This week I was in Japan and therefore switched of the GSM reception. Nevertheless I used the 680 many times every day and I was already wondering why the battery almost remains full. Since the afternoon I'm back in Germany, made a few short calls and voila... I could recognize how the battery power was significantly going down.

    If this is related to a new chip set then we might have a bigger problem. I'm wondering that Palm has not discovered this yet. But maybe they know, and it is something which a short piece of software can not fix and only a new revision of the chip set can correct. But this is speculating of course.

    Nevertheless the GSM phenomenon looks very likely.
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by DIG View Post
    So, I tested your threory, and I called it from my home phone (without answering), the drain rate returned to the normal 0.5 percent per hour immediately.
    Ah, ok, I always started a call from the Treo and hung up again.

    Quote Originally Posted by DIG View Post
    The only other thing I did was to turn the sound to mute before I called it (because it was late and I didnt want to wake anyone), so I suppose that may have had some role
    There are some reports mentioning a higher power drain while the Treo is muted. Personally, I could never reproduce this with my Treo (fortunately).

    Quote Originally Posted by DIG View Post
    This may turn out to be a bug that Palm can fix.
    Let's keep our fingers crossed...
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by glen View Post
    That's an easy one:
    (If this is the case, we might be hunting at the wrong place, if we try to find 3rd party apps causing the problem.)
    But I'm just speculating here.
    [...]
    I admit that I didn't do the same tests with a clean Treo after a hard-reset

    Now, I did. Same results with the naked Treo.

    (With the only exception being Treo Battery, which I installed to monitor the power consumption, I admit.)



    If anyone wants to try if his Treo shows the same behaviour:

    Use Treo Battery to determine your Treo's usual power consumption (remember to let it settle a few seconds). Call your Treo, accept the call, talk for a few seconds, hang up the *calling* phone (not the Treo).

    Check the power consumption again.

    After some of these short test calls, you might see an increased consumption (about 35mA more), which persists. Even in standby.

    If this happens, you should be able to "fix" the power drain with another phone call from the Treo, even if you only let it ring for a few seconds and hang up (at the Treo) again.


    Please do not waste money for too many test calls, since it can sometimes need quite a few of them and I cannot guarantee that other Treos behave in the described way!
  13. #93  
    Turning the phone off (GSM off) will increase battery life dramatically. This has always been the case with treos. They act like 'normal' palm pilots with the cellphone radios off.

    The power consumption differences after calls is interesting. The fact that it lasts lots longer with GSM off is not interesting.
    --
    Visor Deluxe > Visor Platinum > Visor Pro > Treo 180 > Treo 270 > Treo 600 > Treo 650 > Treo 680 > Palm Pre > EVO 4G
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    #94  
    its funny you say that, cuz i heard gsm suppose to consume less power than CDMA(verizon).
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by jaytee View Post
    Turning the phone off (GSM off) will increase battery life dramatically. This has always been the case with treos. They act like 'normal' palm pilots with the cellphone radios off.

    The power consumption differences after calls is interesting. The fact that it lasts lots longer with GSM off is not interesting.
    Really.... first I heard.... GSM needs power. Thanks for this advice....


    Point is some guys are saying that 3rd party applications etc are creating the power drain, this seems to be not correct. All hints are pointing in the direction of a problem with the GSM implementation.

    Glen made some very good remarks here.

    Palm should asap correct this, if they can. If this is a hardware issue, we have to live with this issue.
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by Simasen View Post
    Really.... first I heard.... GSM needs power. Thanks for this advice....


    Point is some guys are saying that 3rd party applications etc are creating the power drain, this seems to be not correct. All hints are pointing in the direction of a problem with the GSM implementation.

    Glen made some very good remarks here.

    Palm should asap correct this, if they can. If this is a hardware issue, we have to live with this issue.
    Sarcasm noted...

    I was refering to this comment that you, Simasen, said:

    I think Glen is here on the right track that the GSM part is creating the battery drain. This week I was in Japan and therefore switched of the GSM reception. Nevertheless I used the 680 many times every day and I was already wondering why the battery almost remains full. Since the afternoon I'm back in Germany, made a few short calls and voila... I could recognize how the battery power was significantly going down.
    You said you switched off GSM and got great battery life.

    I agree that the experiments with various calling patterns _is_ interesting.
  17.    #97  
    So, I wonder if it really is random, OR, is there some pattern.
    Like maybe it happens when the caller hangs up instead of you, or vice versa. I find it hard to believe that it is completely random. The high on/off event rate that follows suggests that some aspect of the hardware/software associated with GSM use is not satisfied that it has finished.
  18. tck
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    #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by DIG View Post
    Glen you really seem to be on to something. Yesterday I made a phone call with my 680, and fortuitously (because this hasnt happened to me for weeks, since I started this thread), it proceeded to drain at about 2% per hour for the next 8 hours, with lots of on/off events, even though it wasnt being used.
    Hi DIG, I read in another thread you get 3 days from your Treo battery but I am surprised that you only saw this drain only once & that after Glen brought out the probable GSM drain.

    May I know how often you make calls & get calls?
  19.    #99  
    Hi TCK
    The coincidence was a bit surprising to me too. A couple of things:
    1. I have seen this drain more than once. If you check my first post, it was actually such a drain that caused me to start this thread, about 4 weeks ago.
    2. I receive an average of 3-5 calls per day. I prefer to use land lines, so I only make calls from my 680 when I have to (maybe once every 2-3 days).
    3. I use the 680 more heavily for calendars, alarms, synching, ptunes, a little email, and my wife likes a game of bejewelled every night!

    I cant see any pattern yet. It hasnt happened again for me to test anything like whether it is related to who hangs up.
    DIG
  20. tck
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    #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by DIG View Post
    ...so I only make calls from my 680 when I have to (maybe once every 2-3 days).
    Thanks DIG. I understand now how/why your Treo goes for 3 days.

    My experience :
    a) 3 days on minimal usage ie 1 call per day eg recent public holidays.
    b) 2 days* on average work day ie 20x 1min calls per day

    *I have rarely risk going two days without a charge after the 1st day; the battery level at the end of 1st day will be about 40 to 50%. On rare good days, when I push for the 2nd day without charging after the first day, the battery level at end of 1st day is about 65%

    I dont use email, BT, IR, mp3; only luxury is using time sync via Preference, Phone & SMS.

    I am still puzzled why my charge drop to 96% after overnite charge, with Phone disconnected from network.

    I am trying your recommendation in #1 - taking battery out for a min.

    Thanks & regards to your Mrs.
    Last edited by tck; 03/02/2007 at 12:06 AM.
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