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  1. ohbw's Avatar
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       #1  
    Incompatible cradles, releasing a 680 that has either a toy battery or a serious software problem, releasing Treos with faux-software like Versamail which require an owner to spend the price of the phone on a host of programs to make the thing usable, four hour tech support calls with people who know less about my Treo than I do and believe the place to begin is with (a) a hard reset, (b) individually loading every byte of data back onto my Treo one by one, and (c) punching my mom in the stomach, failure to follow up with promised escalations of tech support -- I can hardly wait to say goodbye to Palm forever. I'll be buying an iPhone in June. Will it be perfect? No. But it will be very good, and I know from a half dozen years of experience with various Apple products that they'll bust their butts to design and support it properly, to continually and dramatically improve it, and to genuinely value me as a customer, rather than treating me as the inconvenient but necessary conduit through which money comes their way, as Palm does.

    I marvel that people still think it's going to work out to do business this way. I embraced the Treo enthusiastically from the 180 on, but Palm has worked on me like Chinese water torture. Experience by experience, I've lost enthusiasm, and gradually I've been converted into someone who writes posts like this one, on forums like these, and who has conversations like this with his friends and family all the time, and who tells everyone who asks about my Treo (about a half a dozen people a week), "I make it work. I don't recommend that you buy one. Palm sucks."

    The opposite of those conversations? The ones I have about Macs and iPods. I've been directly responsible for causing over a hundred grand in Apple purchases just in my immediate circle in the last few years. Who knows how wide (and rich) the ripples go beyond that? And I do it because they (a) make stuff that works great, and more importantly, (b) show me at every turn that they care about my experience with them and want to keep me as a customer. No wonder their market share is blossoming. It's called viral marketing, and it works both ways, Palm.

    I'm not an Apple employee, I don't own their stock, and I'm not trying to get you to hate your Treo. This is a "Palm sucks" post, and I'm using the best example I know of somebody who has a clue of how to run a consumer product business in a similar field -- substitute "Amica Insurance" if you're annoyed by my Apple references. It started because I just read a post about incompatible cradles, and another about a possible (underline, italicize, and bold that again) fix for this heinous battery problem, and I wanted to express my farewell to, and disgust with, Palm in public. I'd try to email it to someone who matters at Palm, but try finding that email address, or getting a response. Hell, when I call their customer service line, it tells me every time that support is handled by Cingular, even though it isn't, even though I'm in my first 90 days with the 680, even though it's Palm's responsibility, even though I'm on the exact phone line that takes me to their support people (loosely described). In other words, they've gone to the trouble to put some misinformation on their own phone system, in the hope of shirking a little more responsibility. Totally typical.

    Eat my shorts, Palm. You'll never see another dollar from me, and I'll likely continue to badmouth you every chance I get. You really, really, really earned it.
    Brian
  2. #2  
    Uh... Ok.
    Then I don't suppose you'd have any use for this -> http://www.palm.com/us/support/downl...eraupdate.html
    " Palm has identified that the Treo 680 device can experience reduced battery life when the camera is used. The camera may continue to draw power from the battery when the device is in standby mode. Treo 680 users should install the Treo 680 Camera Update to address this issue. "
  3. #3  
    Apple products - my wife just purchased an Apple lap top of some description and asked me to do a few things with it - I set it up on the home network and played with Safari and was not in the least impressed with it or the other features I saw. Good luck.
    Ben
  4. ohbw's Avatar
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       #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by robbalazs View Post
    Uh... Ok.
    Then I don't suppose you'd have any use for this -> http://www.palm.com/us/support/downl...eraupdate.html
    " Palm has identified that the Treo 680 device can experience reduced battery life when the camera is used. The camera may continue to draw power from the battery when the device is in standby mode. Treo 680 users should install the Treo 680 Camera Update to address this issue. "
    Yeah, I downloaded and installed it, the maybe/possibly/we'll see fix for a problem that never should have been shipped. This wasn't a "I can't get my Photo Slideshow to play music!" problem. This was a "The device I rely on for telephony, email, web browsing, and keeping my calendar and contacts at hand has a peppermint where the battery is supposed to be!" problem.

    And if you read the posts about the camera fix, some folks are reporting better battery performance, and some ain't.

    And I never would have heard about it if I didn't visit this forum compulsively, trying to figure out how to make an essential tool in my arsenal perform as advertised (I actually don't dream of "as advertised", I'm just hoping for "semi-reasonably".) The last thing in the world Palm would do would be to expend the electrons necessary to notify me, the guy who keeps giving them money, that something as FUBAR as this might be addressed in a new software patch.
    Brian
  5. ohbw's Avatar
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       #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Apple products - my wife just purchased an Apple lap top of some description and asked me to do a few things with it - I set it up on the home network and played with Safari and was not in the least impressed with it or the other features I saw. Good luck.
    Ben
    It's hard to argue with a product review as exhaustively thorough and intelligent as this, I admit. But I'm going to wait until #1 Treo devotee Walt Mossberg speaks further before I tear my hair and send all my money to Microsoft for its brand new (years overdue) (leaking sieve) (utterly second rate) operating system.
    Brian
  6. dpc
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    #6  
    Tell us how it goes with the iPhone. I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for.
  7. #7  
    Sadly, I agree with much of what ohbw has written, and a lot of people would probably call me a Palm fanboy (although I'm way to old to be considered a "boy" of any kind). I still haven't found a product that I think is superior, though, so I'll stick with the P-OS Treo until something truly better comes along. Maybe the iPhone will be that thing, but for my uses I doubt it. (Besides, I hate Cingular and their data rates, so it's a long shot for me anyway). I can't see typing a lot of emails on that touchscreen, nor being forced into the email provider of Apple's choice, rather than my existing accounts.

    For now, though, I don't like the WinMob interface, and multi-media isn't as important to me as PDA, email and web browsing. So the Treo, in spite of the ancient OS, the aging design, and the poor support, is still better than the alternatives. And mine works very reliably, thank you.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  8. daytontp's Avatar
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    #8  
    So, I guess you have never installed any updates on teh Windows, OSX or Linux OS you are using to post on this thread.
  9. #9  
    I am really curious to see how the iPhone fares when it is available. I fully agree that Apple puts out some fine products. It just seems a bit daft to me that so many folks are "convinced" one way or the other on the device based upon the marketing glossy...

    My "gut feel" is that I'd miss the keyboard, but who knows. I never thought I'd be all that thrilled with the iPod wheel interface, and it works out great. I hope that the touch screen/touch interaction with the device advances the state of the UI for smart phones. That would be a benefit to us all (whichever OS we are currently a "fan boy" of).
  10. ohbw's Avatar
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       #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by daytontp View Post
    So, I guess you have never installed any updates on teh Windows, OSX or Linux OS you are using to post on this thread.
    Sure I have. What I have never done is get a product like the Treo that didn't work as advertised on the day I took it out of the box, and then get totally run around and actually taken backward by their tech support people, all the while watching the forums where thousands of other customers were pulling their hair out over the most basic issues of functionality.

    I'm amazed that people want to defend the indefensible. I guess when you've been a Windows or Treo user long enough, you just expect this sort of thing. "Hey, it lights up when I turn it on! That's something!"
    Last edited by ohbw; 01/19/2007 at 12:33 PM.
    Brian
  11. ohbw's Avatar
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       #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by robbalazs View Post
    I am really curious to see how the iPhone fares when it is available. I fully agree that Apple puts out some fine products. It just seems a bit daft to me that so many folks are "convinced" one way or the other on the device based upon the marketing glossy...

    My "gut feel" is that I'd miss the keyboard, but who knows. I never thought I'd be all that thrilled with the iPod wheel interface, and it works out great. I hope that the touch screen/touch interaction with the device advances the state of the UI for smart phones. That would be a benefit to us all (whichever OS we are currently a "fan boy" of).
    To be fair, there's more than a glossy available. You can watch the intro film on Apple's site. It's over an hour, but Jobs put the iPhone through its paces onstage, and it's a quantum leap that works. I recommend the film to anyone who wants to actually know what the thing looks like and what it's capable of.

    I know what you mean about the touch screen, but I have a pretty deep trust of Apple where UI is concerned. They know how many people email and text all day long from their phones. Given how long it took them to bring the iPhone to market -- read "obsessive attention to detail" -- I really doubt they dropped the ball here. The touch keyboard has a very cool feature, for example, where it intuits what you're meaning to type and corrects keyboard errors instantly (it's shown in the video). I could use that on my Treo!
    Brian
  12. randyg's Avatar
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    #12  
    No doubt the iPhone will be a better device, but i'm not planning on getting a first gen. one. But if you think the iPhone will be the end all be all and have no problems, you're more than likely in for more dissapointment. While the Mac OS is far superior to Windows, it's still not perfect, and i'm guessing a new mobile Mac OS will not be without fault. It's part of having a computer or any gadget. If you don't want to deal with headaches now and then you're better off getting one of the generic Motorolla etc, phones from your provider.
    a dirty mind is a terrible thing to waste
  13. #13  
    iphone? Nah!

    No 3g, no keyboard, no third party apps, unknown push email app, etc....

    I will keep my Treo thanks
    Fred
    Cingular 680
  14. ohbw's Avatar
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       #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by randyg View Post
    No doubt the iPhone will be a better device, but i'm not planning on getting a first gen. one. But if you think the iPhone will be the end all be all and have no problems, you're more than likely in for more dissapointment. While the Mac OS is far superior to Windows, it's still not perfect, and i'm guessing a new mobile Mac OS will not be without fault. It's part of having a computer or any gadget. If you don't want to deal with headaches now and then you're better off getting one of the generic Motorolla etc, phones from your provider.
    Yes, there are ghosts in all machines. The question is, how many, and how good is the exorcist?

    I'm 48 and I used Microsoft machines for two decades in investment banking, law, and other pursuits. Restarting a machine five times a day was altogether common. I've been using OSX since it came to market and I've never crashed it once, and I use it intensively for a wide variety of things all day long. It doesn't get infected with virii. I'm not hosting Russian mob snuff films without my knowledge. Apple gives me brilliant customer service on the rare occasion when I need it. That's a colossal difference.

    I'll reemphasize that I've owned four Treos. I was an early adopter and I've bought the newest Treo every time one came out. It's superior to every other PDA phone on the market -- still -- and that's why I use it.

    But the company behind it is a lousy company, and there's nothing wrong with saying that. I drive a certain Audi because I think it's the best car in the world -- fast, safe, beautiful, well laid out. Nobody in the know thinks much of Audi of America where service is concerned, though, including me. But I can get someone else to maintain it for me, and I do. When Palm releases a Treo that has to be plugged into the wall all day long to function -- sort of counter-intuitive with a cel phone/pda! -- there's no other Treo mechanic to go to. I can just come here and watch people eat up their lives trying fix after fix after fix. Not my idea of a good time.

    I'm genuinely surprised that people take offense to a post like this one. I don't write it to antagonize anyone (except Palm, who wholly deserve it) -- I write it because I assume that you, like I, want a very powerful tool in my pocket, and want it to work like they said it would when you gave them your hard-earned money for it, and want them to stand behind it when it doesn't. I get none of those things from Palm. Caveat emptor, that's my advice to anyone who's contemplating a Treo, based on long experience with a company I will happily and heartily banish from my life -- and credit card -- in June.
    Brian
  15. #15  
    Everything you said about the 680 and Palm generally is true. There is no worse phone or company. On the other hand, Apple is not a shred better. Their business plan is to use so-called intellectual property to lock as many people into their market as possible,no matter how expensive it becomes for them in the end, or how bad it is in other respects. That is why they are using the touch screen. Why? Because as they said when they introduced it, "we have a patent." It doesn't matter if it is better or worse--their plan is to make sure they have the corner on the market, no matter what the merits may be of the product. They do the same with their downloads and anything else they think they can "protect." It's kind of a slimy way to monopolize and avoid competition, but they appeal to superficial tastes--nice white (or black if everybody else had been white, as I say, it doesn't matter, as long as it's "theirs"). or otherwise attractively designed product. But whether that smartphone is going to be any better than this smartphone is very doubtful. Again, I don't say the Treo is any better, just that the IPhone isn't going to be a superior product. Most importantly for most of the people on these boards, though, I'd say that it's more than predictable that they will make sure you can't load up other software--and with all of Palm's defects (and they are almost infinite), at least you can go elsewhere. Apple's game plan is to always avoid that possibility.
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by ohbw View Post
    ...Jobs put the iPhone through its paces onstage, and it's a quantum leap that works. ...
    Each to his own but I was offended by that hour-long puff piece. He spent an inordinate time showing how pretty--Apple's strong suit, admitted--it was, and especially, impressing what I found to be a bizarre audience, with how you could see album covers on the shiny screen. Album covers! Now I know we are all here for different things, but I sincerely doubt that many, if any, of the people here who want at least something LIKE a Treo that works, are looking for a machine that will show album covers. Album covers? I didnt even know they still have them. Album covers. As I say, each to his own, but I cannot even fathom it.
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Apple products - my wife just purchased an Apple lap top of some description and asked me to do a few things with it - I set it up on the home network and played with Safari and was not in the least impressed with it or the other features I saw.
    That's cuz Safari *is* unimpressive, and it appears to need alot more work on the iPhone (did you see the slow rendering onstage, it was Wifi to boot!)
  18. ohbw's Avatar
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       #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by mdavis View Post
    Each to his own but I was offended by that hour-long puff piece. He spent an inordinate time showing how pretty--Apple's strong suit, admitted--it was, and especially, impressing what I found to be a bizarre audience, with how you could see album covers on the shiny screen. Album covers! Now I know we are all here for different things, but I sincerely doubt that many, if any, of the people here who want at least something LIKE a Treo that works, are looking for a machine that will show album covers. Album covers? I didnt even know they still have them. Album covers. As I say, each to his own, but I cannot even fathom it.
    I don't get this, frankly. He demonstrated the profoundly substantive features of the device -- like rendering full web pages instead of the virtually useless WAP pages we're all dealing with now, on a massively larger screen than anyone else offers, with a user interface that is vastly superior to anything else available. You can riff on "prettiness" and "album covers", but what's a GUI? It's a pretty thing that WORKS. It's why you have Windows on your Windows box: because a GUI is a cool idea that works. The album covers thing is a mini-GUI that offers a visual way of searching through your music that some people will find cool. Will I use it? Mostly not, because searching alphabetically makes more sense if one is looking for a particular piece of music. But if I'm just wandering, looking for something to listen to, I might -- just the way I wander my CD shelves when I'm in that mood. In any case, focusing on that about the iPhone is like focusing on the color of the tip of the stylus that came with your Treo as a determination of the utility of the Treo: it's insignificant.

    I don't get all the roaring about copy protection, either. I have 70G of video, photos, and music on my iPod, and not one byte of it is copy-protected. Anyone who can't work around that probably can't even turn on a computer. It's meaningless. Yeah, Apple has a proprietary format at iTunes. Big deal. Do you think Windows Media isn't a proprietary format? Of course it is. And anyone with a brain can download an app to make it fly on an Apple machine. And anyone who wants his media un-protected (the superior form, I agree) can find a way to get it, and then play it on the device of his choice.

    And what's all this hollering about Apple shutting out other applications? Do you Win guys actually believe there aren't gigs and gigs of third party software for the Mac? Wake up. They'll be there for the iPhone, too. You just won't need to shell out $40 here for a mail program, $40 there for a media player -- the device will come with one installed, and it will work.

    Nothing's perfect. But most of the anti-Apple noise is made by people who don't understand or use the products and don't have the simple drive to make an intelligent determination -- "I turned on Safari on my wife's laptop and wasn't impressed." I know dozens of people who went Mac and, like me, wouldn't go back at gunpoint. I've never met anyone in my life who said, "I was using them dang Macs for years, but I got a Dell and Windows rocks!" And that anecdotal evidence is confirmed by the changes taking place in market share.

    There are reasons this chart looks like this, and why the gap will widen. Ride the red line if it turns you on.

    http://i14.tinypic.com/2n6s0ex.jpg
    Brian
  19. #19  
    Superlatives does not help any argument.

    Surur
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by ohbw View Post

    There are reasons this chart looks like this, and why the gap will widen. Ride the red line if it turns you on.

    http://i14.tinypic.com/2n6s0ex.jpg
    Ah, don't confuse the situation with good solid business sense, OK? Palm management sure doesn't.

    The sad thing, IMHO, is that Palm HAD an opportunity in the Smartphone market to be what Apple is to the MP3 player space (ie: dominant and untouchable) and kick M$'s tail in the process. Too bad they squandered it with this "imperial" attitude they seem to have. ("We're great. No-one can touch us" BZZZT! WRONG-O!).

    Let's check back in a year or two and see if they even still exist. My bet (willing to put big $$s on this) is that they won't - they'll be relegated to the dustbin of tech history, along with BetaMax and other "great" technologies that failed due to management mis-steps, not taking care of the customer, and generally not being very good business people all around.

    In the meantime, we'll all have to suffer through the "warts" of Palm as there just isn't anything RIGHT AT THE MOMENT "better". But bet your bottom $$s that there are more than a few companies aiming to take Palm out - for good (M$ being one).

    Whoever gets this market "right" (Apple?) is going to make a killing. I mean - it is THE OBVIOUS next "killer app", which anyone who tracks tech markets knows is the single most important thing you need to make the truly big $$s (hundreds of millions).
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