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  1. ohbw's Avatar
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       #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisInDiego View Post
    I may be out in left field on this... but the iphone and the Treo? Isn't that a bit like Apples and oranges (so to speak)?

    I need a Treo to access POS based 3rd party apps which help me do my job, coordinate my calender through an interace at work... etc. It's a "work phone" really.

    My sense of the iphone is that it really is a teenager's dream phone with a heavy emphasis on Media. Is it really a phone geared to the workplace?

    Arguing about which is better seems pointless. If it's right for you, great. If not, that's okay too. There is a phone in the market for everyone. If it's not the Treo, move on.
    The more accurate metaphor would be Apples and lemons, Chris! (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

    No tool can be all things to all people. I didn't start this thread as an iPhone-is-Lord thread; I started it as a Palm-is-Satan's-dumb-cousin thread (remember, way back in the beginning, I suggested that people substitute "Amica Insurance" if they didn't want to think about Apple). I don't know what kind of apps you use, but no doubt there are and will continue to be things in the world which require a specialized wrench. But to call the iPhone "a teenager's dream phone" is giving it pretty short shrift. Watch the video; what it really is going to be, it's pretty clear, is a Mac laptop in your pocket.

    I know an awful lot of people who run serious businesses on Macs. My experience is that Apple has worked hard and continues to do so to make that not only possible but easy. And if you want to guess how much market share Apple is interested in having with the iPhone, look at how simple they made it for people to use iTunes on Windows so they'd buy an iPod. Look how much money they made creating the killer app for music players. Then look at how many more cel phones are sold each year than music players (almost 10x). It would be silly to think they're hoping to corral a niche market. This will be a home run, and everyone will want one, I believe, because Apple knows very well how much money there is to be made by making it great.

    I'm not aware of a single solitary limitation I have in the business world because I'm a Mac user. But like I said, specific tasks sometimes require specialized tools. My advice as someone who used MS machines for twenty years and has been Maccing it for five or six is to take a good, long, hard, intelligent look, with experienced friends or advisors, at whether you can make the switch. Don't be persuaded by cursory and uninformed "Apple's for artists and kids" arguments, because they're dumb, and false, and will only keep you from having what I think is a much happier experience in the digital realm. That's been true for everyone I've ever known who crossed over.
    Brian
  2. ohbw's Avatar
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       #42  
    If this were an iPhone post, I'd invite you all to read this, but since it isn't, I won't.

    That is all.
    Brian
  3. #43  
    Is this the part of what you would have posted that you would have wanted us to see (if it were an iPhone post)? "Apple will keep a very tight rein on software development. I asked point-blank if third parties would be able to write and distribute iPhone apps and was told, point-blank, no."
  4. ohbw's Avatar
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       #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by mdavis View Post
    Is this the part of what you would have posted that you would have wanted us to see (if it were an iPhone post)? "Apple will keep a very tight rein on software development. I asked point-blank if third parties would be able to write and distribute iPhone apps and was told, point-blank, no."
    I would definitely have wanted you to see that! Ever read any of those posts by someone with a Treo who was having resets or other vexing malfunctions and who had to take all the (mostly third party because the Palm version sucks so bad) software off his Treo, reload one app at a time, and test each one to locate the app that was making the Treo blow up? I have, lots of 'em.

    Having garbage software on your computer, any computer, whether it's on your desk or in your pocket, is how you turn the computer itself into garbage. What is a virus, after all? It's software. And Apple is smart enough to say, "We're not letting half-assed software developers screw up our customers' phones with half-baked programs."

    If you think there won't be tons of cool software for the iPhone, you're daft. Look, if you have the discipline, at the stuff that's available for the Mac. Apple is simply, and wisely, taking the responsibility of vetting it for people rather than letting any old programmer have access to the guts of the machine. They're saving themselves huge headaches, and their customers too. Try talking to Mac people instead of huddling up with a bunch of uninformed and reactionary Win-addicts -- most of us have a pretty high opinion of the company. No, it's not perfect, but it's light years beyond the likes of MS and Palm. I'm not getting paid to write this, for example. I just started typing here to contrast a company that gives a damn about its customers with one that very plainly doesn't.

    Wouldn't it be cool if big companies didn't release products with defective software? Like say, an operating system that's a perpetual sitting duck for hackers? Like say, a power managment program for a Treo that sucks its battery dry between breakfast and an early lunch? I think it would.

    All this jabber about Apple's "control" is daffy. Does anyone even remember that it was Apple that made it possible for us all to download music cheaply and efficiently (without screwing the artists, which is truly bad form however you cut it)? And do you understand that Apple could never have cut the landmark deal they did with the record companies without some form of DRM? Wake up and smell the coffee, there are engineering and business realities that sometimes take precedence over Gimme What I Want, 'Zackly What I Want, Now, Forever, Once Upon a Time.
    Brian
  5. #45  
    You DO have a point: Palm support sucks and they put out untested products.
    The T600 was one, the T650 after that and the 680 now.

    And I still put up with them because they run my killer apps: Datebk6 and Chatter! All the calendars and email clients on other smartphones including WM5 suck.
    --
    Manfred
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by ohbw View Post
    I would definitely have wanted you to see that! Ever read any of those posts by someone with a Treo who was having resets or other vexing malfunctions and who had to take all the (mostly third party because the Palm version sucks so bad) software off his Treo, reload one app at a time, and test each one to locate the app that was making the Treo blow up? I have, lots of 'em.

    Having garbage software on your computer, any computer, whether it's on your desk or in your pocket, is how you turn the computer itself into garbage. What is a virus, after all? It's software. And Apple is smart enough to say, "We're not letting half-assed software developers screw up our customers' phones with half-baked programs."
    Real problem is that all the ppl who CAN hack into Apple's new system (and trust me there are plenty!), may see that as a slight and down right rude...you can expect a few viruses heading the iPhone's way...Apple is slowly becoming the Big Bro that Microsoft was/still is hated for being, and that can only mean becoming a bigge target. They (Jobs and co) can say what they want but no way they'll stop 3rd party apps if ppl want them...

    btw how common ARE phone viruses nowadays? haven't gotten one yet myself but I noticed they even have Norton for Palms and PocketPCs!
  7. #47  
    As usual I cant believe people can be so blasť about the lack of software choice on this IPhone. Will the IPhone have GPS software by 2008? Or medical software? Or diet software? Or tide software?

    If you are not using your smartphone for third party software you should not be using a smartphone at all. I'm sure Apple will be happy to have you.

    Surur
  8. #48  
    I agree Macs are great, but iphone = "Is that a Mac in your pocket or are you happy to see me" is a stretch. It is not a mini-Mac. That said, I am looking forward to playing with the iphone...

    Meanwhile... if "Satan's-dumb-cousin" continues to be the only PDA that can help me do my job, he'll be riding shot gun for at least this release, and perhaps another.
  9. #49  
    And screaming never wins an argument. Who's screaming, you might ask? When you post 25-30 lines to 3 innocuous ones I write, it's the textual equivalent of screaming. Especially when you do it over and over. Either you're right or you're wrong. Let the evidence carry it. Enough is enough.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by bruckwine View Post
    .........btw how common ARE phone viruses nowadays? haven't gotten one yet myself but I noticed they even have Norton for Palms and PocketPCs!
    In the general case, they are mostly hype. There have been one or two that targeted Symbian (rather than phones in general) and that got some traction. There have been one or two, styled "proof of concept," that were intended to be "cross platform." They never got off the ground. They would be better styled "disproof" of concept.

    While the population of phones seems to be large enough to support viruses, the level of sharing is not broad enough or arbitrary enough. Phones could have been built without the capability to share executables but sharing of programs is very valuable.

    Incidentally, I would expect Treos to be more vulnerable than most phones to viruses because of "beaming" of .prc files. Population density and sharing do not seem to be high enough.
    Last edited by whmurray; 01/21/2007 at 08:04 AM.
  11. #51  
    hey Surer, you forgot Foreign Language Dictionary software

    what a joke
    Blackberry Pearl (AT&T), Apple 3G iPhone,
    owned and used: Treo 750 (WM5, Cingular)
    T680 unlocked (T-Mo), T700wx, T700w, T650, T600
    ppc6600, i730, htc mogul, BB Bold, Curve
  12. ohbw's Avatar
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       #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by mdavis View Post
    And screaming never wins an argument. Who's screaming, you might ask? When you post 25-30 lines to 3 innocuous ones I write, it's the textual equivalent of screaming. Especially when you do it over and over. Either you're right or you're wrong. Let the evidence carry it. Enough is enough.
    I'm not screaming, Ace. I'm a rational zookeeper trying to gently talk a feces-flinging chimp down out of a tree. What you do over and over again (and expect others to swallow without rejoinder) is write "innocuous" things like this: "Their business plan is to use so-called intellectual property to lock as many people into their market as possible,no matter how expensive it becomes for them in the end, or how bad it is in other respects. That is why they are using the touch screen. Why? Because as they said when they introduced it, "we have a patent." It doesn't matter if it is better or worse--their plan is to make sure they have the corner on the market, no matter what the merits may be of the product. They do the same with their downloads and anything else they think they can "protect." It's kind of a slimy way to monopolize and avoid competition..."

    There's a word or two in that passage that isn't completely foolish, but only if it's a "the" or a "that" taken out of context and run through the dishwasher a few times. Who would concoct a business plan that becomes expensive for them in the end? Is the only advantage to the touch screen that they have a patent on it, or does it have something to do with the fact that it has no moving parts, frees the entire face of the device up for display, and is a more elegant and simple design, at once both more desirable in marketing terms and in engineering and manufacturing terms? Should they concoct a business plan wherein they don't bother to patent this quantum leap, and thereby make it easier for those who spend all their time gobbling up other peoples' innovations, like Microsoft, to do just that? Would you be able to download music at all anywhere, legally, if Apple hadn't created a plan that the record companies who own all that content would agree to, confident that it protected their financial interest in something they invested a buttload of money in producing? Answers: nobody, duh, duh, and hell, no, you wouldn't.

    You're consistent, though: "I was offended by that hour-long puff piece." Um, Washoe, he's the CEO of a hugely successful consumer products company introducing and demonstrating its newest product and its many and brilliant innovations. What would you have him do, slink on stage, drop it onto a table, mutter, "We couldn't make it turn itself into a fleshbot that gives you a hummer. Some flaw in the jive-a** touchscreen, I guess. Sorrrryyy." -- ?

    If you want to speak, try to say something intelligent. If you fail to do that, don't be surprised if someone tries to illuminate things for you. Even if it takes 25 or 30 lines. Some cases are just harder than others.
    Brian
  13. #53  
    The case you've made is one for earplugs. Get over it. Ranting and name-calling are neither good arguments nor reasons to believe the iPhone is going to appeal to Palm's buyer base.
  14. ohbw's Avatar
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       #54  
    Sigh. Washoe very slow this morning.

    Rant: "Their business plan is to use so-called intellectual property to lock as many people into their market as possible,no matter how expensive it becomes for them in the end, or how bad it is in other respects. That is why they are using the touch screen. Why? Because as they said when they introduced it, "we have a patent." It doesn't matter if it is better or worse--their plan is to make sure they have the corner on the market, no matter what the merits may be of the product. They do the same with their downloads and anything else they think they can "protect." It's kind of a slimy way to monopolize and avoid competition..."

    Dissection of rant (i.e., good argument): "Who would concoct a business plan that becomes expensive for them in the end? Is the only advantage to the touch screen that they have a patent on it, or does it have something to do with the fact that it has no moving parts, frees the entire face of the device up for display, and is a more elegant and simple design, at once both more desirable in marketing terms and in engineering and manufacturing terms? Should they concoct a business plan wherein they don't bother to patent this quantum leap, and thereby make it easier for those who spend all their time gobbling up other peoples' innovations, like Microsoft, to do just that? Would you be able to download music at all anywhere, legally, if Apple hadn't created a plan that the record companies who own all that content would agree to, confident that it protected their financial interest in something they invested a buttload of money in producing? Answers: nobody, duh, duh, and hell, no, you wouldn't."

    Washoe understand yet? Washoe come down, have banana! Washoe sleep.

    http://bowland-files.lancs.ac.uk/chi...URE4/tooth.jpg
    Last edited by ohbw; 01/21/2007 at 08:29 AM.
    Brian
  15. ohbw's Avatar
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       #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisInDiego View Post
    I agree Macs are great, but iphone = "Is that a Mac in your pocket or are you happy to see me" is a stretch. It is not a mini-Mac.
    I respectfully disagree, as does Time magazine in a new article:

    "The fact is, the iPhone shatters two basic axioms of consumer technology. One, when you take an application and put it on a phone, that application must be reduced to a crippled and annoying version of itself. Two, when you take two devices--such as an iPod and a phone--and squish them into one, both devices must necessarily become lamer versions of themselves. The iPhone is a phone, an iPod and a mini-Internet computer all at once, and they all--contrary to basic physics--occupy the same space at the same time, but without taking a hit in performance. In a way, iPhone is the wrong name for it...It's a handheld computing platform that just happens to contain a phone."
    Brian
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by ohbw View Post
    I respectfully disagree, as does Time magazine in a new article:

    "The fact is, the iPhone shatters two basic axioms of consumer technology. One, when you take an application and put it on a phone, that application must be reduced to a crippled and annoying version of itself. Two, when you take two devices--such as an iPod and a phone--and squish them into one, both devices must necessarily become lamer versions of themselves. The iPhone is a phone, an iPod and a mini-Internet computer all at once, and they all--contrary to basic physics--occupy the same space at the same time, but without taking a hit in performance. In a way, iPhone is the wrong name for it...It's a handheld computing platform that just happens to contain a phone."
    Perhaps. Perhaps Palm sold its soul to Sprint and, without knowing it, Apple has sold its to Cingular.
  17. #57  
    So much for a "long goodbye"... becoming eternal.

    Interesting iPhone articles though. I decided to check out the iPhone the day Jobs gave his keynote. But... I shall not succumb to the growing fever to run out and buy one the moment it hits the shelves. I anticipate some refinement to take place and, by the time I've worn out my 680, a new generation will be available and I'll probably pick up the iPhone and an Apple laptop at the same time. Patience is a virtue
    Palm since Palm Professional --- Treo 650 (2 yrs), iPhone since 6/29/07
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by ohbw View Post
    "The fact is, the iPhone shatters two basic axioms of consumer technology. One, when you take an application and put it on a phone, that application must be reduced to a crippled and annoying version of itself.
    And this is why you can download music directly to Itunes on the Iphone....NOT!

    Surur
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       #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    And this is why you can download music directly to Itunes on the Iphone....NOT!

    Surur
    Do you know of any device that can do that, Surur?
    Brian
  20. #60  
    How about a Apple laptop with a HSDPA or EVDO card? The fact is that the IPhone does run "crippled and annoying version of itself". All this talk of "full OSX" are pure lies.

    UMPC's are FULL Windows devices. The IPhone is just a PDA Phone.

    Surur
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