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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by Yokie Kuma View Post
    I've been reading a lot of these battery threads and now it's time to weigh in. I have a 680 and it's my very first Palm. The company office wanted me to have it so I could see emails more often.

    You see, I live in China. We have a 13 hour time difference so they like me to be able to read emails in the middle of my night. So, now I have the unlocked 680.

    I have no idea what battery life should be expected. Bluetooth, IR, auto-time are all off. The camera patch was installed. Good Messaging is running non-stop (push email from the US). I get 40-50 SMS per day but only 1 or 2 phone calls (10-20 minutes). I've done the battery/SIM card out while plugged in procedure. I've done the let drain till non-functioning then charge procedure. I've charged at home with the supplied charger. I've charged at work with the USB cord.

    Bottom line: If I wake up at 6 in the morning and go to sleep at 10 at night, the battery is sufficient. If I go out after work and get to sleep around 2:00 am, the battery is not.

    2-3% drain per hour with Good Messaging turned off. 5-6% drain with Good Messaging turned on.

    I will say, it is a little bit irritating to have to worry if I can get through the whole day without needing to charge the phone.

    Yokie Kuma
    Yokie, Can I encourage you to try a soft reset just once before going to sleep, then check your drain per hour on standby the next morning? See if it improves over 2-3% per hour (which seems to be your current standby drain rate). See the first post in this thread if you are interested http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...d.php?t=135642
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by DIG View Post
    Yokie, Can I encourage you to try a soft reset just once before going to sleep, then check your drain per hour on standby the next morning? See if it improves over 2-3% per hour (which seems to be your current standby drain rate). See the first post in this thread if you are interested http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...d.php?t=135642
    My 680 will not even turn on. It will run down completely over night with everything turned off that I can turn off.

    In any case, one should not have to go thru all these machinations to get thru a day. A battery should not discharge with everything turned off, which suggests a test. I am going to fully charge the batttery, take it out of the phone, wait twenty-four hours and see how much it runs down. (I carry the original battery for my 650 for weeks, as backup, and it is useable when I need it.)
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by DIG View Post
    Goodness gracious me. ... Since when is 25% equal to a third? It really doesnt help your argument to exaggerate ....
    Well, I count 30 out of 105 which is .... well, exaaaaaactly, if that's what you prefer...28.6 %

    Now, goodness gracious...since when is 28.6 % 25%? I guess, when it's also 33%. I don't really care. 25% who report the phone has problems or worse, is a disastrous number for any industry. Come on, don't you see who has the short end of this discussion,if you have to start paring these numbers down like that?

    But more importantly, I really don't understand why it is so important to defend this phone as if it's a member of the family. If this phone would last a full day, I wouldn't mind the resets, freezes, and delays, because when it's working, it makes my day far easier. I started to like the 650 when I got the larger battery and I never gave a thought to whether I should turn it on and use an app or something towards the end of the day. We haven't reached that point with this phone, and it would be nice if we did.
  4. #44  
    ok, you got me there...a bit embarrasing and I am sorry about that. However...
    You really are still not understanding my point, which is simply that the 680 is not inherently and irreversibly flawed. Yes, there are people who have trouble, and supply their anecdotal evidence (which you hate so much) to make blanket statements about how it has terrible battery life. This ignores the fact that the majority of users clearly dont have this problem. I am of the opinion that there appear to be specific things that trigger a higher battery drain rate, and I am trying to avoid making conclusions solely from my own experience by posting some ideas about how to work out the nature of this problem(s) on this discussion site. This can help the troubleshooting process (already has helped me several times to improve the performance of my 680) and it obviously is helpful for newcomers to see that there are some things that can be done to quite dramatically improve battery life. I dont think I have taken the position that the 680 has no problems. I acknowledge that there are problems, but I maintain that in many/most cases, they can be corrected. Providing constructive advice is one of the key points about discussion sites like this isnt it? In contrast, I fail to see the value in your typically dogmatic statements about how bad this thing is.

    When I first got my 680, it was terrible - it wouldnt last even 10 hours with light/moderate use (ie. because it had a very high background drain rate). Then, I found this and the TREOnaut site, and, in amongst many posts where people were grumbling and griping about how crap the phone was, and how they were going to sue Palm etc, there were a few that offered constructive advice about how to improve it. As a result of the few constructive ones, I was able to get my 680 working with 10 times the efficiency that it originally had. There are still people who just want to post about how bad the 680 is, convinced that their own bad experience is proof. I am not really interested in them, unless they try to argue that my efforts to provide a more constructive post or thread are a waste of time.
    Last edited by DIG; 03/02/2007 at 04:47 PM.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by DIG View Post
    ........
    You really are still not understanding my point, which is simply that the 680 is not inherently and irreversibly flawed. ..........There are still people who just want to post about how bad the 680 is, convinced that their own bad experience is proof. I am not really interested in them, unless they try to argue that my efforts to provide a more constructive post or thread are a waste of time.
    I am trying not to over-generalize from my own terrible experience. However, I have tried all your tips and they have had no measurable effect. Percentage drain is not the problem so much as absolute drain.

    You talk about 300 hours of standby. I cannot get a day with everything turned off. Unless turning it on to check the battery is not "standby," then you and I are not talking about the same product.
    Last edited by whmurray; 03/03/2007 at 09:44 AM.
  6. #46  
    I am not sure if you are interested in any other suggestions, but I will risk it. I would suggest a process of elimination. Have you tried this: last thing you do at night - try a soft reset, then leave your 680 in standby (phone on), then see how much drain there is first thing in the morning (before using the 680 for any calls or other purpose). If you find very little drain, then you may be able to work out why your 680 is having so much trouble. The point is that you havent activated any of the functions/software other than those that are necessary for it to be on (apart from ones that may automatically come on which are harder to exclude). If the soft reset doesnt make any difference, then you could try the same thing after a hard reset (much more of a hassle though). If it invariably drains by 50% or so overnight (which is what you would expect based on your comment), then maybe yours is faulty, but I think it is worth trying this before reaching that conclusion. If it drains by only 5% or so, then you can start to narrow down the causes of the massive drain you see under normal conditions on standby.
    Last edited by DIG; 03/02/2007 at 05:30 PM.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by DIG View Post
    I am not sure if you are interested in any other suggestions, but I will risk it. I would suggest a process of elimination. Have you tried this: last thing you do at night - try a soft reset, then leave your 680 in standby (phone on), then see how much drain there is first thing in the morning (before using the 680 for any calls or other purpose). If you find very little drain, then you may be able to work out why your 680 is having so much trouble. The point is that you havent activated any of the functions/software other than those that are necessary for it to be on (apart from ones that may automatically come on which are harder to exclude). If the soft reset doesnt make any difference, then you could try the same thing after a hard reset (much more of a hassle though). If it invariably drains by 50% or so overnight (which is what you would expect based on your comment), then maybe yours is faulty, but I think it is worth trying this before reaching that conclusion. If it drains by only 5% or so, then you can start to narrow down the causes of the massive drain you see under normal conditions on standby.
    As I said I would, I took the battery out. When I put it back, it was fine. This eliminates the possibility that the battery is faulty.

    I did not understand what you were suggesting with your reset at night procedure. I thought you were trying to manage the battery. I will try your test. I do not have any third-party software on the phone yet so a hard reset should not be necessary. On the other hand, since I have been unable to use the phone, a hard reset will not be too destructive.

    Although the phone is "just out of the box," I have been reluctant to sell it, or even give it away, because I believe it to be flawed or faulty.
  8. #48  
    good. Just in case it makes a difference, wait a minute before putting the battery back during the soft reset (as I recommended in an earlier post in another thread). There was one time for me when I was fixing the camera induced drain (pre-patch days) when the soft reset didnt work after I whipped the battery out then in without any delay. Maybe this is a superstition, but I cant be bothered testing it now cos I have a seidio case that is virtually welded on.
  9. #49  
    I've had *lots* of treos, including my wife's ones. I also had a 750v prior the 680. the 680 is the first with its poor battery life. after years, now I have to ask myself whether it will pass the day or not.

    that's all for me.
    matro 180->270->600->650->750v->680->Pro
  10. #50  
    I tried the soft reset (while the phone was plugged in to the charger). I cannot leave the phone 'on' as Good Messaging will psuh email and start that cycle even if I 'work offline'. The soft reset cancels the 'work offline'.

    I am now looking closely at current drain during the day. The phone (with screen lit and me doing stuff) draws about -210 mA. When idle (screen off), draws around -10mA to -15mA.

    Interesting, when I drop the screen brightness down to almost 'barely able to see it', the current draw is -130mA. That's a significant difference.

    So, doing some math: if the battery has a capacity of 1250 mAHours we see:

    in use at -200mA = 6.25 hours
    dull screen in use -130mA = 9.6 hours
    resting -10mA = 125 hours

    So my usage time is very related to what I am doing and for how long. I will try looking at usage during phone calls or email updates.

    Yokie
  11. #51  
    And it draws -185 mA with no SIM card (so phone must be off and push email disabled)
  12. #52  
    I'm not sure what that last comment means, but the overall figures convinces me that the problem is not the low-usage, or idle, power consumption, but how inefficient the Treo is with applications--in other words when you really use it! And as a corollary, I have real doubts about the utilty of "maximizing" the idle state energy consumption. I doubt it has anything to do with the real problem of massive inefficiency with useful applications. Yesterday my phone died, after commuting to the midwest and back and using it moderately, after 14.5 hours; the day before it showed it would last about 26 hours when I stayed in town and basically just had Chatter going on IMAP push. I was surprised it would last so long with push, but I really wasn't using it to handle much emails.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by mdavis View Post
    I'm not sure what that last comment means, but the overall figures convinces me that the problem is not the low-usage, or idle, power consumption, but how inefficient the Treo is with applications--in other words when you really use it! And as a corollary, I have real doubts about the utilty of "maximizing" the idle state energy consumption. I doubt it has anything to do with the real problem of massive inefficiency with useful applications. Yesterday my phone died, after commuting to the midwest and back and using it moderately, after 14.5 hours; the day before it showed it would last about 26 hours when I stayed in town and basically just had Chatter going on IMAP push. I was surprised it would last so long with push, but I really wasn't using it to handle much emails.
    Said another way, if one wants long battery life, do not use the device. That is what I have been doing. I find that with the phone off and no SIM card, battery life is OK. Fortunately, I have a 650 in case I want to do anything.
  14. #54  
    Yeesh.. I use my 680 all day, and it's online with imap email in Chatter and Verichat all day. I take it off the charger around 7, plug it back in around 11 or midnight, and I always have 10-15% left. If I'm using the phone more that day or that night, I plug it in while I eat lunch for 30-45m. Never a problem with this.

    If you you use it a lot and can't plug it in anywhere (always on the move, etc) then yeah, the 680 might not last long enough. If you're not a power talker or you can plug it in and top it off during the day sometime, then there's no problem at all.

    Don't live in bubbles!
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    Said another way, if one wants long battery life, do not use the device. That is what I have been doing. I find that with the phone off and no SIM card, battery life is OK. Fortunately, I have a 650 in case I want to do anything.
    I've been doing this just to see how long it would last. I don't think it's ever going to die...I'm at 72% and I took it off the charger at 99% last Thursday morning. I think I've deduced the battery life is fine...
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christinac130 View Post
    I've been doing this just to see how long it would last. I don't think it's ever going to die...I'm at 72% and I took it off the charger at 99% last Thursday morning. I think I've deduced the battery life is fine...
    I agree. I think that the use is high and the meter screwed up.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by mdavis View Post
    I'm not sure what that last comment means, but the overall figures convinces me that the problem is not the low-usage, or idle, power consumption, but how inefficient the Treo is with applications--in other words when you really use it! And as a corollary, I have real doubts about the utilty of "maximizing" the idle state energy consumption. I doubt it has anything to do with the real problem of massive inefficiency with useful applications. Yesterday my phone died, after commuting to the midwest and back and using it moderately, after 14.5 hours; the day before it showed it would last about 26 hours when I stayed in town and basically just had Chatter going on IMAP push. I was surprised it would last so long with push, but I really wasn't using it to handle much emails.
    I cant speak for your phone, and maybe you have a faulty unit, which does not mean that all 680s are faulty. That aside, I really dont understand your logic regarding the idle power drain. For example, lets say, a moderate to heavy user might have 12 hours of idle (standby) time per day. If standby drain rate is 0.5% per hour, then the battery drops 6% for this period. If standby drain rate is 3%, then the battery drops 36% for the same period. How can this not be a problem? It would only not be a problem if the unit was never in standby mode. How many hours of your 26 when you were in town would you estimate were in standby? And even if you had IMAP push going all night, I dont think that would take up 60 minutes of every hour would it?

    Furthermore, if you consider that the idle drain rate is probably a base level that other functions add to in terms of % drain per hour, then the idle drain rate at 3% per hour would cost the phone 72% of the battery over the day, compared to 12% over the day for the 0.5% per hour idle rate.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by DIG View Post
    I cant speak for your phone, and maybe you have a faulty unit, ...

    Furthermore, if you consider that the idle drain rate is probably a base level that other functions add to in terms of % drain per hour, then the idle drain rate at 3% per hour would cost the phone 72% of the battery over the day, compared to 12% over the day for the 0.5% per hour idle rate.
    I don't think I have a faulty phone since it's the second one they've sent me and their performance (outside the damaged phone jack which always sucks...talk about a plethora of design defects) is essentially the same. In fact, identical.

    I don't think the drain rate from what I have seen as well as what I have experienced is that variable. I think everybody gets at least four days (minimum) if everything is shut off, and many probably get close to the 300 fictional hours, say ten days, if things are REALLY shut off. At those marginal differences, the kind of performance I am looking for would totally dwarf their effects. The difference between a good .3% and, say 1% that I'm sure everyone gets is pretty irrelevant, if you compare it to the 8% that a lot of normal applications seem to suck out of this undersized battery. As I said with full IMAP push functioning the other day I had close to 24 hours--that's about 4% INCLUDING THE OVERHEAD that you are discussing. That would be fine. But the minute you actually use these things (to send a significant number of emails, receive attachments, make a few phone calls, use the internet), suddently the usage shoots up from 4% to 8%. Reducing the overhead just doesn't compare to that difference, and that's moderate usage. If I used the TomTom GSM, I'd be between 10-20 % use. I guess you disagree, but that dwarfs any improvement between .3% and 1%, say, which seems to be what I read about others experiencing, and mirrors my own. Of course there are some people who report more, but they inevitably have other things going on, like the phone itself, and who knows what kind of connection problems they are having.
  19. #59  
    We may have to just agree to disagree.
    I maintain that, if your 680 is functioning optimally (<0.5% per hour) that you will get anything between 4 hours (if you talk on the phone solidly) and 300 hours (if you dont use it at all, but have it in standby with the phone on) and somewhere in between depending on how much you use it. The heaviest demand on the battery is phone usage, and the 680 is rated at 4 hours and I think the 680 achieves this. This is not dissimilar to the 650 if I understand correctly. So, the battery seems to be capable of roughly meeting the specs under heaviest and lightest workloads and furthermore, is not dramatically different from the 650?? (I have never owned a 650, but we should expect 67% of the 650 performance given the 680 battery is 67% the capacity of the 650). If anything, I think the 680 seems to outperform the 650 based on the specs. (I bet that statement provokes a response ).

    I have no idea what should be expected from TomTom, but it probably relates to how much GSM time it needs. If only a few minutes per hour, then a low background drain should mean that TomTom doesnt use much power. On the other hand, if it is always using the GSM while active, then is it surprising that it drains the battery like a phone call? I honestly dont know the answer to this, or how it compares to a 650 running TomTom. Other issues may complicate this. It seems pretty clear that GSM use can trigger high (2-3% in my case) background drain rates. Maybe TomTom triggers this? Do you know you get 1% on standby? I agree, this isnt bad and not a big deal if you get 1% instead of 0.5%, but, if you are really getting 2-3% instead, perhaps due to the GSM triggered drain problem (TGP), then this may be where your problem lies. This is why I think it is worth testing the idle drain rate. I wont argue with you any more about that though, I promise...

    Lastly, (and I am sure you know this) nobody should expect to get anything like 300 hours with normal use - 300 hours is simply the best case scenario, eg. if you stuck it in a drawer for 12.5 days in a high signal area with the phone radio on. You would have to wonder about whether you really need a smartphone if you could go 10 days without actually using it.

    I bet you're very frowny and cuddly when you are angry.
  20. #60  
    You've been talking to my mother.
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