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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by red-beard View Post
    After a bit over 7 hours with Bluetooth on, E-mail being checked every 5 minutes, No camera use, Sound on and Beam Receive on, the phone is 83%. 25.6 minutes per percent of battery, or a standby life of 43 hours. I could live with this.

    Egholm, if you are refering to the reset as set below:

    http://forum.treonauts.com/treo-mode...tructions.html

    I have tried this. I still think there may be other problems, but there is no doubt that the sound switch and Beam Receive have a huge effect on Battery life.
    Re-Beard, i'm confused, if all factors are set to optimize life, shouldn't beam recieve be OFF?
  2.    #22  
    Discussions with Palm this morning:

    They think there is definitely something wrong with _this_ phone. The Level 3 person has a Cingular Treo 680 that lasts for days in standby on a single charge. The fact that even setting the phone to the most optimal settings, it can only get 40+ hours in standby, Palm believes something is wrong with _this_ phone.

    My speculation is there is either something wrong with some, but not all, of either the batteries or the phones. One person, in one of these threads, has 2 phones and 2 batteries, and the problem followed the battery.

    Assuming this is the case, those of us with defective batteries, which don't store as much charge, would see fast drains when the phone is set in certain modes.

    OTOH, if there is a problem in this phone's circuitry, in certain modes it will drain fast. A Bad diode? A bad batch of circuit boards? Who knows? It is centered around certain areas or functions of the phone.

    I don't think the issue is software, or it would affect everyone or everyone with a certain type of phone. The fact that some people with locked phones and some people with unlocked phones are having the problem, means it is most likely something inconsistent in the hardware.

    When I get my replacement, I'll trying swapping the batteries around and see if there is anything different.
  3.    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by adrianoftyriel View Post
    Re-Beard, i'm confused, if all factors are set to optimize life, shouldn't beam recieve be OFF?
    Yes, Beam Receive set off helps optimize life. I mistyped that. I'll edit the post.

    James
  4. #24  
    ol, okay, that makes more sense.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by red-beard View Post
    Discussions with Palm this morning:

    They think there is definitely something wrong with _this_ phone. The Level 3 person has a Cingular Treo 680 that lasts for days in standby on a single charge. The fact that even setting the phone to the most optimal settings, it can only get 40+ hours in standby, Palm believes something is wrong with _this_ phone.

    My speculation is there is either something wrong with some, but not all, of either the batteries or the phones. One person, in one of these threads, has 2 phones and 2 batteries, and the problem followed the battery.

    Assuming this is the case, those of us with defective batteries, which don't store as much charge, would see fast drains when the phone is set in certain modes.

    OTOH, if there is a problem in this phone's circuitry, in certain modes it will drain fast. A Bad diode? A bad batch of circuit boards? Who knows? It is centered around certain areas or functions of the phone.

    I don't think the issue is software, or it would affect everyone or everyone with a certain type of phone. The fact that some people with locked phones and some people with unlocked phones are having the problem, means it is most likely something inconsistent in the hardware.

    When I get my replacement, I'll trying swapping the batteries around and see if there is anything different.
    I'll be talking to Palm at 2pm - a level 3 tech support person. I'm on my second phone from Rogers and it performs identically to the first phone. The battery seems alright at sometimes and then something sets it off and it starts a rapid drain. I was assuming it was something to do with the camera but if I'm to keep the phone I want Palm to tell me what's wrong. Rogers tech support and customer service advised me Friday to return the phone and cancel my contract so I don't get locked into an expensive 3 year plan with a phone that is not functioning to spec.

    I'll let you know what Palm is telling me but I suppose it is possible that Rogers received a whole pile of bad batch phones - if it is a battery or hardware issue.
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    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by red-beard View Post
    Soft Reset - Removal of the Battery and Re-installation
    In cradle reset - Removal of the Battery and Re-installation while power is connected to the device
    Warm Reset - Removal of the Battery and Re-installation and holding the 5 way switch "UP" until the 2nd palm screen comes up.
    Hard Reset - Removal of the Battery and Re-installation while holding the red on/off switch until the 2nd palm screen comes up

    There has also been talk of a "Charge with the SIM card out", which is referenced from Treonauts.com, above.

    Every one of these resets has been completed on the phone. An "In Cradle" reset was done before each experiment, to ensure that the unit was reset and, if it really does calibrate the battery meter, that the battery meter was calibrated.

    James
    I haven't seen the "Warm Reset" or the "Hard Reset" referred to before. What do they do that the "In Cradle Reset" does not do?
    Brian
  7.    #27  
    A Warm reset is a debugging tool where much of the startup routines are skipped. It would allow you to remove a program causing resets during the startup phase of the phone.

    A Hard reset deletes all data from the device and you are left with a "virgin" system.
  8. #28  
    This battery.prc program (http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...d.php?t=132127) is very interesting and provides a much faster way of conducting experiments.

    I've considered my battery life to be pretty poor -- can't go more than 1 day without recharging, even when I don't make any phone calls. Based on a few hours of observation, here are some approximate numbers for my phone:

    Battery capacity: 1180 mAh
    In a call (listening to voicemail): 230 mA
    Radio on, watching battery graph: 125 mA
    Radio off, watching battery graph: 100 mA
    REM sleep with radio on: 90 mA
    Deep sleep with radio on: 10-25 mA
    Deep sleep with radio off: 5-10 mA

    You can use these numbers for theoretical battery life computations. Talk time is as-advertised or better (5 hours). With the phone on "standby" (i.e. deep sleep/radio on), my phone should get 47-118 hours of battery life. With the radio off, i.e. PDA mode only, my phone should get 118-300 hours.

    Of course, the device isn't actually being USED in this mode, so here is a more realistic calculation. I use my Treo as a PDA 2 hours per day, consuming 250 mAh. The phone is otherwise on standby for another 16 hours, of which perhaps 1 hour is spent checking email in the background (~450 mAh) and I'll typically make a short phone call (50 mAh). So a typical day's usage is 750 mAh, leaving me with less than 40% battery life left at the end of the day. This is pretty consistent with my observations.

    Also, using the program, I was able to confirm that my Treo enters "deep sleep" after a short period of "REM sleep." And that it re-enters "REM sleep" while checking email in the background (you can just watch the LED turn on and off while the screen is off). It does enter REM sleep at other times, but I can't tell why with this program.

    From all this, I can conclude that (a) my battery is OK, (b) my power draw with the phone in use is OK, and (c) the charging circuitry is fine (i.e. battery meter reports accurately), thus my battery doesn't need any more recalibration.

    In my mind, there are two issues to resolve:
    1. What should the power drain be in deep sleep with the phone turned ON? If we can nail this down, we can determine the right way of thinking about "standby time" -- i.e. radio on or radio off. Can anybody who has a long-lived Treo 680 post numbers similar to those above?
    2. How often should the phone go into REM sleep after entering deep sleep? What, besides background email checking, triggers REM sleep?


    If our battery consumption numbers are all the same, then I would conclude that the issue is with programs keeping the Treo in REM sleep, since REM draws almost as much power as being on. This kind of problem could likely be solved with a software update. If the battery numbers are different, then the underlying issue could be software or hardware.

    And if it isn't consumption or REM, then I would conclude that the underlying issue is how Palm computed their advertised 300 hours of battery life, and that using phone-off mode seems inconsistent with industry practice (and likely even inconsistent with how they advertised the Treo 650!). I can only imagine the arguments between the marketing guys and the engineering teams over this issue!!!!!!
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by red-beard View Post
    After a bit over 7 hours with Bluetooth on, E-mail being checked every 5 minutes, No camera use, Sound on and Beam Receive off, the phone is 83%. 25.6 minutes per percent of battery, or a standby life of 43 hours. I could live with this.
    I have tried this. I still think there may be other problems, but there is no doubt that the sound switch and Beam Receive have a huge effect on Battery life.
    wow-appreciate your efforts!
    Beam receive off hasn't made a huge difference for me. and for 8 hours out of the day, my sound is off while I'm at work. I'm still seeing drops in battery life that don't seem right. You're getting 83% after 7 hours of use. I'm at that after a few hours or so at best. And at 12 hours I'm often at 10% or so after doing next to nothing with the device, literally one or two very brief phone calls even! I am keeping my 680 on the hopes that this all gets resolved, but in the meantime, I switched back to my 650. My 650 has been off the charger for 7 hours, I made one phone call of a few minutes, my beam receive is ON, and my Local network time preference is ENABLED. It has 97% battery. Now, about what % would & should the 680 be at with all the same parameters, taking into account that it has the smaller battery?
    I'm doing an "unscientific" observation with the 680. The SIM card is out so I'm leaving it on standby mostly, but have beamed appt database info here & there. Took it off the charger Saturday at 10:45 am. today at 2 pm it's at 65%. This AM it was at 85%. I did have one alert go off as well as an alarm (both were previously set). I'm going to see how long it lasts without charging. I was also losing time on it too. Phone was shutting off overnight for no reason then losing time. I have it set to auto update the time on NV Backup at 1:00 am, but that only works if the phone is on. Have the network update thing off as that's a "known" battery drain issue. (although it has made no difference in my 680's performance one way or the other and of course right now it's irrelevant)
  10.    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by baje View Post
    wow-appreciate your efforts!
    Beam receive off hasn't made a huge difference for me. and for 8 hours out of the day, my sound is off while I'm at work.
    My initial thought was sound off would help battery life. It does not. Turn the Beam Receive off and the Sound On and then look at the usage. It's not a cure, but a help.

    It's 2:05 PM. Phone has been off the charger since 7:30 am. 75% left. Beam is off, Network is checking e-mail every 15 minutes, Bluetooth is off, Sound is on.
  11. #31  
    actually, sorry, yes, I do see that Sound ON is better, and I do have mine off 8 hours a day on vibrate mode. Even so, it's not like I'm slammed with endless calls all day, so I wouldn't see how this could make THAT much of a difference either.
    And I haven't quite calculated things mathematically. Since the 680 has a smaller battery, by default how much less battery life does it have? So for example, with my last reading of 97% (on the 650), then about what would be the equivalent expected amount on the 680? Because then I have an actual frame of reference.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by red-beard View Post

    Sound switch. I was surprised that this had an effect (a last minute add to the experiment), but I was equally surprised that turning it to the "ON", or sound active position, gave more life. I cannot explain it.
    The only thing I can think of is that when the sound is set to OFF, it might take more power to "vibrate" whenever a call or whatnot is recieved?
    What can I say? A girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta do!
    Nokia 3360 -> Sony Ericsson t226 -> Sony Ericsson z500 -> Treo 600 -> Treo 680 -> AT&T Centro
  13.    #33  
    During the experiment, there were no calls! So it is something about the sound switch being in that position during standby. Again, I don't know enough about the circuits to explain why it would drain more in vibrate standby than sound standyby, but the results do indicate this.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by red-beard View Post
    My initial thought was sound off would help battery life. It does not. Turn the Beam Receive off and the Sound On and then look at the usage. It's not a cure, but a help.

    It's 2:05 PM. Phone has been off the charger since 7:30 am. 75% left. Beam is off, Network is checking e-mail every 15 minutes, Bluetooth is off, Sound is on.
    I too noticed, this past weekend, that the beam recieve status makes much more of a difference than anything else. Every time I turned the beam recieve to 'on', without doing a soft power connected reset and charging the battery up afterwards, the battery meter would drop noticeably faster.

    When I turned the beam recieve to 'on' and just charged it, without doing the reset, the battery meter dropped much faster.

    I like this Treo 680. It's definitely a keeper even with the battery meter bug of which Palm should have a fix for soon.
    Palm Vx - Tungsten|E - Tungsten|T5 - Treo 680
  15. #35  
    Very interesting Redbeard. I was surprised by your results with IR beam receive (roughly 40% drop in performance). I note that your best performance still seems to be giving around 2% battery drain per hour, (presumably with no actual phone use?) so there may be some other variable that is contributing to some of the drain in your expts. Do you have time synch set to manual? In my hands, in less rigourous expts, this contributed noticably (roughly 1% per hour) to battery drain. It will be useful for your findings to be verified on other 680s to determine if your findings can be generally applied. My baseline performance is around 0.5% per hour (like Egholm). My earlier (again less rigourous) tests suggested that Time Sync and BT on (but no activity) each contributed to an increase in battery drain (in the order of 0.5-1% increase in battery drain per hour). I did not find any difference when IR beam receive was on or off. I did not test sound on/off. Of course, it is possible that different peopls 680s will have different factors affecting battery drain, so other peoples experience will be useful. I will check this more thoroughly in some overnight on Standby expts and report back.

    PS. In contrast to Egholm, I find with my 680, that the simple soft reset (remove and replace battery) is sufficient to correct the camera induced battery drain.
  16.    #36  
    Time Synch was set to manual during the tests
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  17. #37  
    Unempirically weighing in here. I had gotten things pretty stable with turning off all system and game sounds. Overnight drop off's always less than 3% per hour usually 2%/hour sometimes 1%/hour. Overall, no complaints and I am around charging equipment often enough to sell my 650 and embrace my new 680 life. This was with Beam Recieve On, and infrequent, but not always followed by soft re-set use of the camera.

    I followed the instructions above last evening and turned Beam Recieve to Off (what could it hurt?) and turned the system and game sounds back on (I miss those sounds!)....Went to sleep fully charged and woke up this morning to 10% remaining battery life. Something I had not seen in weeks.

    Also, is anyone seeing a never turn to green LED even when the battery is reporting 100% but chargeing even in the presence of the the green lightening bolt? When new, my 680 got to the green LED all the time. I tried one or two of the battery 'trick' (removing when fully charged) and think that killed my green LED...For what its worth, I think at least part of the problem is the battery meter reading falsly or simply incapable of telling where it is with the smaller battery.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by red-beard View Post
    Soft Reset - Removal of the Battery and Re-installation
    In cradle reset - Removal of the Battery and Re-installation while power is connected to the device
    Warm Reset - Removal of the Battery and Re-installation and holding the 5 way switch "UP" until the 2nd palm screen comes up.
    Hard Reset - Removal of the Battery and Re-installation while holding the red on/off switch until the 2nd palm screen comes up

    There has also been talk of a "Charge with the SIM card out", which is referenced from Treonauts.com, above.

    Every one of these resets has been completed on the phone. An "In Cradle" reset was done before each experiment, to ensure that the unit was reset and, if it really does calibrate the battery meter, that the battery meter was calibrated.

    James
    But there is also a variation to many of the resets - namely to leave the battery out for a couple of minutes before reinserting. At least this is the recommendation for solving the camera-bug. Whether it works better than just unplugging and plugging again I don't know...

    // Egholm
  19. #39  
    Why would anyone want to keep Beam recv on all the time unless you are actively receiving stuff via IR?
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  20.    #40  
    Beam receive "on" is a default setting.
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