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  1. mslade's Avatar
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       #21  
    Sorry if I have mislead anyone.

    There are three possible states - talking, standby and phone off.

    I have no reason to doubt that the claim of 300 hours in standby mode even if it isn't working that way for everyone who has a 'battery' problem!

    The phone off test just confirms that the battery would last much longer than 300 hours if the phone is off. This pretty much settles that the problem is not with the battery.

    The problem is with excessive power consumption during standby mode - problem probably related to somehow the Treo coming 'on' during standby mode. My estimate that this is for at least 90 minutes during a 12 hour period.

    Batterygraph does not tell what application goes on.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by jedigolf View Post
    I'm not disputing or challenging anything presented here:
    but all i know is I had 2 Treo 650s, the first was a pre-release version that I wore out and replaced.
    Battery life was never an issue - never went thru a charge-cycle process - used it, ran down over a few days with btooth always on, email always on, screen at full brightness, charged again. Never seemed to need 'training'.
    Granted this battery may be smaller, and I am on my second battery, the usage is not even close. Cannot even make it thru a half day.
    We should not have to go thru all this, it should just work.
    The 680 goes back today. Should not have to be this hard.
    This is not a hobby, it is an important business tool to me.
    Will the new 750 be any better? Same battery? One can only hope.
    well, interestingly enough I was using a 750v about 2 months ago, same size of battery etc and although battery life wasn't great it was certainly better than I'm getting on the 680 which is odd because....my 680 shipped with a duff battery so I have in fact been using the 750v battery in my 680 the last couple of weeks!
    This either means that windows mobile system is more efficient at conserving battery power or there is a fault with the 680 as mentioned previously....same battery but pretty different results.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by mslade View Post
    The problem is with excessive power consumption during standby mode - problem probably related to somehow the Treo coming 'on' during standby mode. My estimate that this is for at least 90 minutes during a 12 hour period.

    Batterygraph does not tell what application goes on.
    Is there any app for palm os that will tell what app is using the CPU, and how much % of it? If there is one, and we can run it on the treo then we can confirm that theory.
    -----------------
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  4. ancker's Avatar
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    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by holvoetn View Post
    Sorry, but I am not buying this.
    Guys, check your numbers ! 300 hours is 12.5 days !!!
    There is NO device on the market I know that is able to keep the cell radio on for that amount of time on 1 single charge.
    Standby = radio off for me and then it makes sense (still pretty awesome, I can tell you).

    Soft reset should be enough
    I have to agree here, my Motorola V551 would only get around 4 or 5 days on standby with zero use. I have to believe the standby time is calculated when the radio is off.

    I do have to say that the 4 hours talk time is probably pretty close to accurate. I pulled my phone off the charger at 1130 yesterday. I made and hour call, an hour and a half call, then another hour call (Sundays are my catch up with the parents day) and my battery was at 37% when I put it back on the charger at 2230. (This is with no GPRS. I keep chattermail closed on the weekends)

    Thats 3.5 hours and I only lost 63%, seems to me I could have easily gotten another hour or two before the battery ran out. As far as talk time is concerned, I can't complain.

    /ancker
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by mslade View Post
    Sorry if I have mislead anyone.

    There are three possible states - talking, standby and phone off.
    Except this is a PDA device also.

    States:

    1. Phone On - Talking
    2. Phone On - Waiting for Calls - normal cellphone standby
    3. Phone Off - PDA functions only
    4. Phone Off - PDA functions - display off & no background programs - Palm PDA standby
  6. mslade's Avatar
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       #26  
    (Oops - Clearly I was wrong on only three states! Another one not listed is phone off/pda off!)

    If you look at the specs for cellphones these days, 3-5 hours of talk time coupled with 10-12 days of standby time are common with batteries that have lower mah ratings than that of the treo 680.

    And some phones are rated much higher! On the cingular site I noticed the Motorola C139, a low end phone that my wife got free for a $100 prepaid plan - talk time spec of 11 hours and standby 18 days!
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by mslade View Post
    (Oops - Clearly I was wrong on only three states! Another one not listed is phone off/pda off!)
    This can only be obtained by removing the battery, and then it will STILL drain
    Digital since 1980, Handheld since 2001
    M105, TE, T3.5, Treo 680, Treo 500v
    Happy Datebk6.1 user
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by mslade View Post
    If you look at the specs for cellphones these days, 3-5 hours of talk time coupled with 10-12 days of standby time are common with batteries that have lower mah ratings than that of the treo 680.

    And some phones are rated much higher! On the cingular site I noticed the Motorola C139, a low end phone that my wife got free for a $100 prepaid plan - talk time spec of 11 hours and standby 18 days!
    Look, obviously you are right on this point but you need to compare apples with apples, which I do not believe is being done.
    Those devices you refer to do NOT have PDA capability, do NOT have hi-res screen, maybe not even color, NO full fledged keyboard, ... etc etc.
    Power needs to go somewhere

    I can take my M105 out of the drawer if you want, it can run 3 WEEKS on 1 set of AAA cells with quite normal usage
    Digital since 1980, Handheld since 2001
    M105, TE, T3.5, Treo 680, Treo 500v
    Happy Datebk6.1 user
  9. #29  
    and do not have a touchscreen.. another power hungry item
  10. mslade's Avatar
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       #30  
    I just had a very delightful, pleasant conversation with level 2 tech support at Palm. I had to go through Cingular tech support to get there, but the level two person was very nice.

    The bottom line is that Palm tech support doesn't really know that there is a battery/power consumption problem! The word that they have from before product release is that they expected complaints because of the roughly 30% less capacity of the 680 Treo battery as compared to the 650!

    But this is much worse - 680 standby lasting two or three days compared to a spec of 12.5 days - 300 hours.

    Palm tech support has a special plan looking at new units having problems in the field - typical of any new product. They are specially targeting unlocked units sold directly by Palm.

    But they don't seem to have much data - how much charge is consumed in a 12 hour period in standby mode, for instance, that would help them troubleshoot the problem.

    Please, please get some data using BatteryGraph or even Xlauncher's battery percent meter on your unit's behavior and let Palm know.

    It is likely that just replacing your unit will not solve your problem - see other threads where people have swapped units only to still have the high consumption rate.
  11. jackskid's Avatar
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    #31  
    After reading the posts here and elsewhere it seems that there is a bettery drain issue concerning the camera app or possibly the system sounds. Over four days I have tried to document battery drain overnight. You will see that there is in my opinion a problem with the camera app running after it has been turned off. All settings for each day are noted. I spent almost two years with a 650 and an extended battery before upgrading to the 680. I expected battery life to be less with the 680, but have never been able to make it through a day without a charge. After a battery reset and no camera use it looks like I might actually make it almost 2 days without a charge.

    Seems that there is a small battery meter reading issue as well.

    PALM IF YOU ARE LISTENING, IT'S THE CAMERA APP CAUSING THE BATTERY DRAIN

    My Cingular 680 Battery stats over four day period.

    Installed apps. on phone in addition to OEM

    Keyshades hack
    minitones
    mobileclock
    card reader
    file z
    dataviz tech
    volume care
    easter egg enabled

    Day one
    Normal usage during day, on and off charger cradle all day, e mail every 30, bt headset until 6p, web, txt
    57% at 12:11p
    time update off
    radio off
    bt off
    beam off
    7:41a 40%

    Day two
    Normal usage until 2:00p. Battery reset at 20%, full charge, normal usage until bedtime no additional charge since full charge to 99%, e mail every 30min till 11p, system sound set to off, and NO CAMERA USAGE SINCE BETTERY RESET:

    38% at 11:20p
    time update off
    radio off
    bt off
    beam off
    system sound off
    top switch set to sound off
    8:26a 37%

    Day three
    Full charge to 99%
    Light phone usage, e mail every 30 min, some web

    76% at 1:15a
    no camera usage since bat reset
    time update off
    radio off
    bt off
    beam off
    system sound off
    top switch set to sound on
    8:26a 75%

    Day four
    Full charge to 97%
    Light phone usage, e mail every 30 min, some web

    76% at 11:41p
    no camera usage since bat reset
    time update off
    radio on
    bt off
    beam off
    system sound on
    top switch set to sound off
    7:35a 75%

    Bottom line: After battery reset and no camera use only 1% drop in battery. This has been consistant for the last 3 days now. After a heavy day of use, BT, phone calls, e mail check every hour, web, reading docs on docs to go the battery was down only 25% after 15 hours usage.
  12. Templar's Avatar
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    #32  
    I really am not convinced it is solely the camera. I did a hard reset and restore last night and have not launched the camera since (on purpose) and it is losing 10% or more per hour. Some times the battery is even slightly warm. I went to a meeting tonight, started with 100% at 7:00, chatteremail running and web connected. I made 5 minutes of calls, got maybe 5 emails and at 10:00 when I returned I was at 62%.

    greg
  13. #33  
    Obviously, there is a problem involving the Camera application, but many users like you, Templar, are not convinced, and I share this feeling...

    I've been using my 680 for a couple of weeks, and the battery life has improved as expected with a few charge/discharge cycles, but it still shows some considerable and unexplained variations.

    Yesterday afternoon I noticed that I had forgotten to switch on the phone when leaving home a bit earlier. I did that, and left the Treo in silence mode in a coat pocket.

    In the evening, I used it to call home before driving back there, a very short call, 1 or 2 minutes. Before going to bed, I wanted to check something on the Calendar on my Treo, and noticed that it was again behaving oddly (basically, whenever there is a system beep, once the beep completes you hear something like a half second of blank noise before the Treo is quiet again).

    It has done this before in the past, occasionally, and I suspect that this, too could be related to a battery problem (thouth I don't know if it's a cause or a consequence).

    I checked the battery drain with BatteryGraph, and indeed the drain had been quite steep that afternoon. Since I've read other users report that moving the mute switch could affect this, I did a mute/unmute with it, and after this the blank noise had almost disappeared after the system beeps. I didn't recharge the Treo, intending to see the effect on the battery drain, and this morning BatteryGraph showed a "normal" battery drain again for the rest of the night.

    See the picture below:

    http://www.kisslanding.net/parobbe/images/bat1.bmp

    And of course, I had NOT used the Camera application that day.

    IMHO there are probably some applications or events that cause the Treo to enter a state in which the processor doesn't go to sleep when unused to save the battery, as is the case normally on PalmOS devices. When this happens (in Camera application or in other cases) the battery drain is dramatically increased. Or maybe the problem is hardware-related (i.e. with the Camera and/or sound hardware handling by the PalmOS drivers)?

    I think that we could use the help of clever programers like Dmitry or others like him to try and track down the problem. I've not looked deeply at this issue (since I can most of the time largely use my treo 680 for more than a day without having to recharge it), but here's the application I'd write if I had the skills:

    1) A tool that would intercept the launch codes to log the time at which a new application has been launched and the battery voltage/percentage at that time. This way we could later graph the result, and estimate a battery drain on an application per application basis. It would probably not be too difficult to write, and wouldn't slow down the Treo too much since it would only intercept application launching events.

    2) A tool that would intercept the REM sleep request notifications and the deferSleep ones to try logging something that would help figuring which apps do not let the treo go to sleep, if any. Logging the time of every such event would probably be impossible due to the sheer number of events to handle (as the deferSleep event is repeatedly sent by whatever application need the Treo to remain "awake" for a while before going to sleep), but if we could log the number of those events and the associated application(s) instead (just incrementing a counter for that application) it might be possible, I don't know.

    That way, if there is a rogue application preventing the Treo to go into power saving mode (REM sleep is supposed to be temporary before going to deep sleep mode), we might have a chance to find out which one(s). In addition to the volume of data involved, this might protentially slow down the Treo considerably, and affect the battery drain as well since it would add some work in conditions where the Treo is trying to go to sleep, so I don't know if such a logging too would really be relevant or possible.

    I suspect a sleep state problem may be part of the problem because the 'Time ON' and 'ON Today' figures given by BatteryGraph are usually not accurate, so either BatteryGraph doesn't log this data properly (i.e. something is different on the 680 vs. other devices) or it does log it correctly and something is preventing the Treo to go to sleep normally.

    Any programmer out there with better ideas and the time to implement them?
  14. Chinasaur's Avatar
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    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by mslade View Post
    The bottom line is that Palm tech support doesn't really know that there is a battery/power consumption problem!
    And that is someone lying to you. When I called Palm to get the RMA for my 680, the person I spoke to WEEKS ago said Palm already knew of the issue and "planned" to fix it sometime in the future.

    So I call BS when someone in CS admits to knowing about an issue that someone in tech support is ignorant of? Sounds like Palm doing a Cover it's A..
    Crimson™Waiting for Battery Fixes to buy again...
  15. #35  
    Not necessarily ...
    It could be the initial person you talked to went way out of line by saying what he did, just to make the conversation with you a bit smoother.
    It is also possible the second support guy really did not know.

    You can not know for sure in cases like these so let's not jump to conclusions ...
    Digital since 1980, Handheld since 2001
    M105, TE, T3.5, Treo 680, Treo 500v
    Happy Datebk6.1 user
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by euroclie View Post
    I suspect a sleep state problem may be part of the problem because the 'Time ON' and 'ON Today' figures given by BatteryGraph are usually not accurate, so either BatteryGraph doesn't log this data properly (i.e. something is different on the 680 vs. other devices) or it does log it correctly and something is preventing the Treo to go to sleep normally.

    Any programmer out there with better ideas and the time to implement them?
    I totally agree, and I would be stunned if Palm didn't have some sort of profiling tool so that they could diagnose this problem. Power management has always been one of their strengths. I think that initially they dismissed the complaints about battery life, because a lot of peoples expectations where based on the 650 or other Palm devices. I certainly hope that they are listening now, and they look at this issue. There are some sharp people in the Palm community with (apparently) a lot of time on their hands, so even if Palm denies the problem, I have faith that they will figure it out for them.
    The wise man breaks wind and is gone... - J. Tull
  17. #37  
    Palm doesn't have enough data to pinpoint the problem????

    All they have to do is read this discussion and the original discussion on battery life and they'd have more than enough data on the battery performance on both the unlocked version and Cingular version!
  18. jackskid's Avatar
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    #38  
    After installing BatteryGraph last night and then doing a full battery reset as documented on the palm support site I noticed that my battery would only charge to 98% 4150mv. My battery has been charged/depleted many many times. So there seems to be a battery meter issue.

    I was reading on another forum that it seemed that the system sound was continuing to run on the cpu generating some sort of static. Testing on my Treo did not show this to be happening. I have turned off my system sound just in case and I would suggest you do too. euroclie that might be your issue.

    I have still not used the camera since my last battery reset. Again, last night my battery dropped only 1% with the phone radio and BT off.
  19. mslade's Avatar
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       #39  
    Your overnight results are consistent with what I have seen.

    Please try it tonight with phone on (assuming that you won't get any calls!). I expect you will see a significant difference!

    Last night for 12 hours in standby I dropped from 10 to 63 percent! I'm starting to believe that part of the cause is the Cingular network. Although this is a all-bar location, the network seems to drop out, causing the treo to hunt for a network for a long time (at least minutes at times) which would result in major power consumption.

    When the treo is searching for a network, turning off the phone takes at least 30 seconds or more, too.

    Please, please, report your results to Palm and Cingular, asking them if they are hearing about the problem and point them to the various forums where people are complaining.

    thanks
  20. Maris's Avatar
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    #40  
    Is it possible there is a difference between the Cingular version and the unlocked ones for the "camera-related" issues? I have an unlocked 680 and have used my camera off and on since I got the phone and have not noticed any significant changes to battery drain either way. Once my battery "broke in" it has been fairly steady in the amount of use each day.
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