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  1. whajj's Avatar
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       #1  
    Someone accused me in another thread that i am jumping too fast at accusing Palm of having bugs in Treo. For clarification, i have been a treo-addict for over 4 years now- ever since the introduction of the first Treo (270, i think it was called). I Have been using nothng else since then. So, when i criticise or report bugs, i am: 1) saying them out of experience and 2) out of love to the Palm system (I hate Windows).

    In that light, i discovered some more really silly bugs/ shortfalls in 680 that i cannot believe are there, specially that i know that they were not there in 650. I believe Palm is ought to get an update on the software very soon to deal with these and others.

    Here are my latest discoveries (and sorry if someone has already written on these):

    1) Favourites. Go to a speed dial in favourites, press SPACE bar to display alternative numbers, choose one of these numbers to dial... The phone will dial the number, but will show it as an UNKNOWN NUMBER!!!! (if you have a picture associated with this contact it will show it, but no name!!!)

    2) SMS. Create a new message, in the TO field enter a name from your contacts... if any of the numbers of that contact (say Mobile) has any letter next to it, it wont show in the list of numbers for SMS. So for example if you have the Mobile # as "+1-212-444-2222 work mobile"... it wont show. You can go to that contact in CONTACTS and send a message, but in the SMS application you cannot look up that number!!!!

    3) BT. Bluetooth turns off on its own sometimes... with or without a reset!! Tried this on TWO unit that i have ... and same thing!

    4) In the phone application... in Dial pad.. the GREEN button does NOTHING!!!

    5) In Call History.. you cannot see the duration of each call!

    Again, i know some of the above were reported before (even some were reported by me in different threads). However, i find it important to put all issues in one thread... PALM: ARE YOU LISTENING!
  2. #2  
    I haven't experienced the BT turn off issue.

    But a call log that doesn't SHOW a list of call durations isn't very usable. You can see the duration of the callif you look at each one individually - which in't very time saving.

    When I press the green button while the phone dial pad screen is showing nothing happens either - But if I am on the "main" screen pressing the green button will bring up the last several calls.

    I work mainly from the "main" screen so didn't notice the inability of the green button until I read this thread, when pushed after dialing using the dial pad it will dial, but the last calls list would be handy to have here too if this is your main screen.

    I really get the feeling that Palm rushed this phone to market. Unfortunately it may come back to haunt them if the thing doesn't function correctly or as advertised!
    This PRE is MINE all MINE! But if you ask nice I might let you hold it!
  3. whajj's Avatar
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       #3  
    Forgewizard... What do you mean "check calls individually.."??? As fas as i know there is no way you can check call duration of any call.

    I agree that you get the feeling that Palm rushed the phone!!! I just hope they get a system update to take care of these things quickly!
  4. #4  
    If you have the program "City ID" installed, you can check the duration of each call! (as well as the City) But-you shouldn't need a 3rd party program to do what you could do before!
  5. #5  
    The call duration info is there and can be displayed using a tiny overlay posted in another thread. I'm using it very happily here. It would have been nice not to have to apply a little prc to see it though.

    Search and you should be able to find the link.

    When I pull up the dialing screen, type in a phone number, and press the green key, it dials the number.. Seems like, intuitively, this is what it should do.

    My BT headset stays paired for hours. (Once I figured how to set the prefs for it.) Of course, mine is the cheap treo BT, so it really should stay on and paired.
    --
    Visor Deluxe > Visor Platinum > Visor Pro > Treo 180 > Treo 270 > Treo 600 > Treo 650 > Treo 680 > Palm Pre > EVO 4G
  6. #6  
    Whajj

    AS I post a reply , I'm thinking that I may have already installed the .prc offered by "Toem" on these forums.

    Now when I bring up the call log and highlight a call then use the menu to open details, all info for that call is displayed.

    But it would suit me better to have call duration show as part of the call log list.

    So I'm off on a quest to find a compatible logger.

    Cheers!
    This PRE is MINE all MINE! But if you ask nice I might let you hold it!
  7. whajj's Avatar
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       #7  
    The green button should display last numbers (if the screen is blank and you havent entered any digits). It doesnt when you are on the key pad screen. That is my point!
  8. #8  
    I just had a possible bug pop up on the 680. After over a week with no problems... I placed the phone in the cradle and it reset itsself and continued to do so overe and over again... I have isolated the problem to being connected to a USB port... I have tried it on 2 different laptops and same thing. Sitting in the cradle with only the power plugged in Everything is fine connect it to the USB and it goes crazy.

    Any Ideas anyone??
  9. whajj's Avatar
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       #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by bill-smith View Post
    I just had a possible bug pop up on the 680. After over a week with no problems... I placed the phone in the cradle and it reset itsself and continued to do so overe and over again... I have isolated the problem to being connected to a USB port... I have tried it on 2 different laptops and same thing. Sitting in the cradle with only the power plugged in Everything is fine connect it to the USB and it goes crazy.

    Any Ideas anyone??
    VERY Strange! Try to do a Hard Reset and then connect again and see if still happens!
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by whajj View Post
    i discovered some more really silly bugs/ shortfalls in 680 that i cannot believe are there, specially that i know that they were not there in 650. I believe Palm is ought to get an update on the software very soon to deal with these and others.
    Quote Originally Posted by Forgewizard View Post
    I really get the feeling that Palm rushed this phone to market. Unfortunately it may come back to haunt them if the thing doesn't function correctly or as advertised!
    I don't think there is any doubt Palm rushed this to market without full testing. They have always done this. Just look at the deep history of discussion on this forum on ridiculous bugs with every Treo product they have released, the updates they have put out after the product came to market, and of course the complaints you observant users made even after the updates.

    Just a bit down the road from Palm's headquarters in Mountain View, CA is Apple's headquarters. Say what you will about the company, but products do not come out until they are fully tested and ready for use. Of course Apple has been very slow to come up with a phone/iPod integrated version, but could you really imagine Apple releasing iPod with the type of basic problems listed by whajj and other users on this thread and the relatated sticky thread? When the product does come out, I suspect there will not be forums and threads somewhere dedicated to discussing problems.

    This sloppy product development mentality was not the case when Donna Dubinsky and team created the Pilot or when she ran Handspring. It's too bad Palm focused on trying to vengefully crush her (as far as I can tell as an outsider) instead of learning what she had to offer. It seems they forget she was the product development genius who conceptualized the Palm in the first place, as well as the Treo, and essentially created their company on product strength. That's why we're all users.

    For the Treo 680, it seems (to me) that Palm did in fact increase the intensity of their product development efforts this time around, but unfortunately it seems this extra intensity was focused on other things, like driving additional software revenue out of users (e.g., by integrating addit and putting many 'bonus' software titles on the installation CD that are actually additional cost.)

    Quote Originally Posted by whajj View Post
    PALM: ARE YOU LISTENING!
    Unfortunately whajj, I think the answer is no. I once identified a problem on the Treo 600 (as did many of you) which I took all the way to the CEO of T-Mobile and the CEO of Palm (links to story below). T-Mobile quickly and effectively proved it was a problem with the phone firmware. Palm developers acknowledged they were too rushed and managed on timelines to have time to think about these issues when developing the product and testing was not deep enough to . They also acknowledged go back to fix old products is too low priority to put the best people on, and everyone moves to focusing on what's next. I pointed them to Treocentral, to which the folks I dealt with said they don't read it for problems. This was about two years ago so I hope that has changed. To their credit, they gave me a Treo 650 for my trouble in getting to the bottom of the problem and pointed it out to them.

    For me, I would love to see Palm become a respectable product development house again. In the meantime, it is back to the box for the 680 until I find out from this forum that all of the significant problems I have had have been fixed, which may be never. By the way, are there any other Treo 680 to Treo 650 converts yet?

    Treo 600 story links (I never finished updating the whole story):
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...ad.php?t=55157
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...ad.php?t=58051
    --
    Pilot 5000--> PalmPilot Professional--> Palm III--> Palm IIIe--> Handspring Visor--> Treo600--> Treo650--> Treo680--> Treo650--> Treo680

    US Robotics--> 3Com --> Palm --> Handspring --> Palm--> palmOne--> Palm/Access--> (bankruptcy?)
  11. allonon's Avatar
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    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by bill-smith View Post
    I just had a possible bug pop up on the 680. After over a week with no problems... I placed the phone in the cradle and it reset itsself and continued to do so overe and over again... I have isolated the problem to being connected to a USB port... I have tried it on 2 different laptops and same thing. Sitting in the cradle with only the power plugged in Everything is fine connect it to the USB and it goes crazy.

    Any Ideas anyone??
    Yup, seen that. Something gets corrupted. Not sure if it's just the PREF files are not. Usually I just restore from my morning backup and it's all good again.

    I've only had that happen after a particularly bad reset which I caused trying to test something.
  12. #12  
    Hello,
    As a software tester I find bug reports interesting because they give me a better handle on the types of bugs that testers did not catch. I'm sorry that you feel shortchanged by these defects, and yes, they could have been caught with deeper testing. (But hindsight is 20/20.) I don't test software for Palm or any of the carriers.

    Most of the problems you have mentioned are the typical "outside of the first way most users would do things" sort of testcases. I don't want to defend Palm's level of testing, as I wouldn't feel proud letting such bugs get past me!

    I'd like to add some perspective about my general perception of the "quality" of the treo 680 vs other past treos. Probably the least buggy converged treo/pda/cellphone at release time was the treo 300 (and perhaps the similar 270 which I never owned). Each later treo was more complex and has been more buggy upon release. The Treo 600 and 650 each had significant shortcomings which were fixed with firmware updates several months after initial release. The treo 700p has a similar level of problems as the 650 (some would say worse, some would say better) than the 650. It's been over 1/2 year so far with no firmware update from Palm. My read on the primary reason for this is Palm has been allocating resources to the development of the 680 and 750 models. I think Palm has done better on both fronts of releasing more models while showing improved/better, but still not "good enough" testing on the treo 680. Testing is an art, and not having the right, obsesive people on your test team, or dramatically constraining the testing time can cause embarrasingly obvious defects to slip through.

    One thing we do with bug reports is to "triage" them, so below I'll give you my take on the ones you have mentioned here.

    - - - - - - - - - - - -
    I guess I'd classify the following two as embarassingly obvious, but not severe because you can (perhaps with some inconvenience) work around them:

    Quote Originally Posted by whajj View Post
    2) SMS. Create a new message, in the TO field enter a name from your contacts... if any of the numbers of that contact (say Mobile) has any letter next to it, it wont show in the list of numbers for SMS. So for example if you have the Mobile # as "+1-212-444-2222 work mobile"... it wont show. You can go to that contact in CONTACTS and send a message, but in the SMS application you cannot look up that number!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by whajj View Post
    5) In Call History.. you cannot see the duration of each call!
    - - - - - - - - - - - -
    The following fall into the category of "of course, but we never though about making it work that way"

    Quote Originally Posted by whajj View Post
    4) In the phone application... in Dial pad.. the GREEN button does NOTHING!!!
    - - - - - - - - - - - -
    How many people know to press the space bar to see alternate numbers?
    (Perhaps this falls into the "I didn't know it worked that way" category too.)

    Quote Originally Posted by whajj View Post
    1) Favourites. Go to a speed dial in favourites, press SPACE bar to display alternative numbers, choose one of these numbers to dial... The phone will dial the number, but will show it as an UNKNOWN NUMBER!!!! (if you have a picture associated with this contact it will show it, but no name!!!)
    - - - - - - - - - - - -
    To me, all of the above issues have "workarounds" so their severity is lessened. The bluetooth issue seems to be the most severe.

    Quote Originally Posted by whajj View Post
    3) BT. Bluetooth turns off on its own sometimes... with or without a reset!! Tried this on TWO unit that i have ... and same thing!
    Did you get your treo 650 before or after the firmware update? If after, then I'd say "welcome to the early-adopter club". Honestly, the issues you raise seem minor when compared to the lags, bluetooth problems, and constant resets, and audio stuttering while in background playback issues of the treo 700p. I beliee that Palm has significantly raised the quality bar with the treo 680 release. Even though Palm has gotten better, they still need to improve more. Your problems are real, any you still spent "good money' on this phone.

    Ironically, the quality bar for more "mainstream" users is higher than for technically minded "early adopters". Users of treo 680 and "lesser" devices won't understand, or accept problems that can be "worked around". They'll just return the phone, buy a competind device, and Palm will have lost that potential customer for life! I'm not sure they see the damage to their future that these sloppy, rushed releases are causing!

    I guess I should not close this issue without suggesting a solution. I think the solution should be a closed beta test program. I'm going to start a new thread with an idea. I'll add a link to it here after I start the thread.

    EDIT #1: Here's the new thread:
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...57#post1160157

    regards,
    --
    Bob Clancy
    Last edited by sudoer; 12/28/2006 at 10:15 PM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  13. #13  
    I think it is quite unacceptable that companys like Palm put out hardware before it is properly tested, for suckers like us to buy and beta test at OUR expense, only to see the NEXT version almost as bad. I returned my very first 650 because of the repeated resetting issue..
    How the @#$% could they miss that problem???

    Since then I have had two 650s (the return policy was good :-)) because of the badly designed phono socket issue.
    Why did they not design in a software switch to turn same off/on ??

    I am also frustrated beyond words (almost) that BlueTooth still isn't fully implemented in the 680 according to specs.. (No voice dialling..?? wtf??)
    Having had a great deal of trouble with the BT spec in the 650s (abysmal connectivity and compatability ) I am in no hurry to waste my money on another.
    Why IS the BT implementation so bad?

    The answer is to design and build better gear and THEN test it properly BEFORE you foist in on the public.
    Why is that so @#$%ing hard for them to do??

    PS (bclancy)
    Why should I have to waste my time WORKING AROUND something that I have PAID MONEY for??
    You come to me for some of my work (I'm an anaesthetist) and pay me for my time... I won't expect you to have to do some sort of WORKING AROUND to get a decent safe anaesthetic... WTF should I not expect the same from a piece of expensive Hardware??
    Last edited by reechard; 12/29/2006 at 02:53 AM.
  14. allonon's Avatar
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    #14  
    And I don't understand why you have so many issues with the Treo. I've used 6 650s, and 4 680s and have had minimal problems. Ending up with 1 phone that would not boot correctly

    I've never had a phone jack issue despite dropping my phone on multiple occasions with headphones plugged in.

    Most of my issues were third party software conflicts that I had to track down. Given that I have about 200 programs loaded, and are using actively 15 different ones a day, and another 20 occasionaly through the week. Add to that 8 different hacks. That works pretty well. I've bricked 2 Treos doing ROM upgrades, so obviously those don't count.

    I've found very "hacks" for Blackberry. Most everything is just add on software, so it doesn't tweak operational use very much. Since you're not tweaking functionality it makes it a little more stable. But I've hard-crashed more then 1 Blackberry doing normal day to day stuff. On a call, looking up data in a document, and poof, java reboot and hung. Actually took a java clean to repair.

    I've played with the 8125, loaded 3 hacks and about 4 apps and that thing would go to proccessor overload everyday.

    I found the BT implementation of the 650 marginally worse then my 8700C, and the 680 on par with it. 650, 680, 8700C, 8125 could not match the performance of my old 6182, but thats typical. As the implementations get better, they use less power(ful) chips. Save power, etc. I actually like the BT implementation on the 650, the power savings was nice. The delay to transfer to the headset was almost a non-issue.

    If you don't like the phone, stay away from it. But it works well for a vast majority of people.

    I'm not saying there are not any issues with the phone. Battery life, leave something to be desired. But I knew it wasn't going to be great given the size of the battery.

    And the OS stuttering needs to be resolved. Hopefully thats an firmware fix. I think the new chipset, while better with the network, takes more processor time away from the system.
  15. #15  
    Because mere mortals don't have the time, or the inclination, to bugger about with things they have BOUGHT in order to make them do what the manufacturer SAYS they do anyway.
    If it is the case that multiple hacks are necessary for the device to work it should come with the following warning sticker wrapped around the box "Warning... This device that we are selling to you may or may not work as reliably as we claim, if at all. If it fails, a geeky knowledge of arcane operating systems and programming capabilities are desirable in order to make it work again. Have a Nice Day.."

    Failing that, they could just produce a "Do It Yourself" Treo phone Kit and let us assemble it ourselves, with all our spare foostering about time.

    If you have had minimal problems then you can consider yourself lucky. Many others are not so blessed. That is why they had to implememnt a Returning Buggy Phono Socket Issue policy.
    Anyway, your post is so glowing as to be almost incandescent..
    Perhaps you actually work for the company??
  16. allonon's Avatar
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    #16  
    Who says I need the hacks to make the device work as it "should" I have the hacks so the device works the way I want it too.

    No, I don't work for the company. I'm just not beating the company up about "shortfalls" that are due to the clamoring of the masses of a lighter, smaller device. Something has to give.

    Personally, I prefer Palm devices. I despise WM. Blackberry is decent for email, and BIS access into corporate resources, but in general, I dislike the lack of additional functionality I can add to it to make it work the way I want.

    Do I have problems with the 680? sure I do

    Battery life sucks. But given that it only has a 1200mah battery, I knew it was going to be bad. I was using the 2400mah battery in a 650, and barely making it 16 hours. there were days I got home (or hotel) and the battery was <10%, so I knew I was going tohave issues with the stock 680. I used it for 4 days with the stock battery, I could barely make it to 8pm, sometimes 6 depending on my use. So I'm using my 2400 battery form my 650 and I can go till midnite and still have 40% left. (my day typically starts at 7:30, thats when I pull the treo off the charger)

    Lagging. It's an annoyance, which I'm assuming has to do with the radio. However the only time it really impedes me is when I play games, so I can live with it until a firmware update.

    Freezing Totally. I narrowed this down to Xpressmail. But only when using Push. If I pull for email, I don't have the issue. It was similar to an issue I had with the 650 and Xpressmail. After getting emails, my 650 would hang for 20-30 seconds. So my guess is Ihave to wait for the firmware as well.

    Phone screen. I'm annoyed as hell with some of the changes to the main phone screen. the lookup and convert to number is missing, favorites is also annoying.

    It's not truly a replacement for the 650, it's a new entry level device for Palm to try and garner more users. But, the memory upgrade, bluetooth 1.2 and slightly smaller dimensions made me jump on board. That and my 650 was going into death throws of call clarity after being dropped so many times.
  17. #17  
    Allonon posted:
    No, I don't work for the company. I'm just not beating the company up about "shortfalls" that are due to the clamoring of the masses of a lighter, smaller device. Something has to give.
    Clamoring?... of the masses for a smaller lighter device? Maybe in your neck of the woods.

    All I was clamoring for was a device that worked as advertised after purchasing my first Treo 650! Because Cingular customer service and tech support kept me trying this and switching sim cards, and trying that for the first month of owning the device I then was roped into warranty exchanges.
    Then got three more malfunctioning 65 devices! Failing to issue me an actual functioning device ( still after trying multiple variations of set ups and resets and switching SIM cards); Cingular's warranty dept. then "upgraded" me to this "smaller, lighter device" and AGAIN it has taken THREEdevices to locate one that just might actually function!

    And when I say function I mean without self power cycling, self resets, crashes when working with internal programs like "memos", or connecting and disconnecting the ear bud, or switching to the SD card and back.

    As for being able to "report" the bugs or shortfalls of the device directly to Palm - try it!

    Their website directs you back to the carrier! HAH! Now isn't THAT a joke! Es[pecially when several conversations with tech support inform me that this problem or that problem is a "Palm" firmware issue so I'd need to contact the mfr!

    As a consumer I am thoroughly disenchanted with Palm's advertising of the Treo as a device that claims " its time to expect more from your phone" ~ Taken directly from their website Treo 680 front page!

    I DID expect more from my phone! That's why I bought the original Treo 650! According to the sales reps, the consumer reviews/reports and personal; interviews with Treo owners, I thought that the Treo would be able to offer me more.

    Well Isuppose in the basest form of definition it DOES allow me to EXPECT more from my phone - it just doesn't DELIVER more!

    I am not bashin PALM per se - as I have been thoroughly happy with my Tungsten T3. But this company has offered the "masses" a device to simplify our life. This company has advertised that their particular device is capable of doing things like: up to 4.5 hours talk time and 300 hours standby time" but doen't make any disclaimers about exactly HOW to get such performance until you delve into their troubleshooting files on the website!

    When I purchased my Nokia phon(s) and they advertised "up to 5.5 hours talk time/ up to 10 days stand by time - I never had to do anything except charge the battery and use the device!

    The reason I went to the Treo was because I outgrew the Nokia phone programs and wanted to be able to do more. The Palm Treo mfr CLAIMED their devicecould do what I wanted and I beleived them enough to spill out my hard earned cash!

    I don't think it is too much to ask for a mfr to at least make good on their most basic advertiing claims!

    If in my business I make the claim I can shoe a good horse with 4 regular steel shoes in less than an hour - I darn well better be able to do it!

    If a tire mfr claims their tires will give 60,000 miles at proper inflation and use on that vehicle then I should be able to rest assured I'll get 60K miles!

    I can fully understand that a device like this can make disclaimers against projected battery life based on internet connection use or game playing - but talk time and standby times are basic phone functions!

    So far this third treo 680 that Cingular's warranty dept has sent me seems to be working o.k. - but I haven't even attempted to do an email or get online with it, nor have I sent a text message yet. So it still remains to be seen if the device can even perform what the mfr claims it can.

    I wasn't "clamoring" for a smaller, lighter device" at all - just one that workedas advertised!
    This PRE is MINE all MINE! But if you ask nice I might let you hold it!
  18. #18  
    You've got nothing on me bud, I've had a ton of problems, mostly with the radio and roaming (I'm using a european SIM card from 02 czech republic)

    While Roaming:

    GPRS didn't work at all on cingular although they are an approved GPRS roaming partner. I could insert the same SIM card in a treo 600 and it worked perfectly. Got a variety of different error messages, something like 0x202 or something.

    About 50% of the time it would tell me my message center number was invalid when sending an SMS on any network (of course I had sent plenty of SMS's before this message on the same network, and everything worked perfectly on the treo 600 with the same SIM card)

    On a couple of occasions it refused to sign on to any network at all. I would get no signal and network unavailable messages, but again, my treo 600 worked perfectly. I resetted many times and it didn't help.

    In General:

    The default settings for my provider's GPRS specify that the password should be blank. The problem is that the treo says "incomplete setup" when I try to connect with these settings, so I had to go in and make another profile where I went into the password field and just pressed nothing, and returned so it thought there was a password entered. But every time I reset the phone (which is a lot due to all the problems), it switches me back to the configuration it can't understand. Arg.

    About 20% of the time it simply refuses to dial certain numbers even though I have full signal. It just goes back to the dial screen. One was while I was roaming (I tried about 20x), but it worked when I got back to my home network. Others are on my home network. Sometimes a reset helps, sometimes it doesn't.

    Still won't correctly automatically switch to a different GPRS profile to send MMS messages. Gives network timeout every time. Every treo has had this problem.

    Destroys compatibility with the autoconnect feature of Mergic VPN making it a pain in the *** to get my email (autoconnect now crashes the treo). I have to manually switch back and forth every time I want my email.

    The new address book lookup is even slower than the old one. Don't know why they didn't use the one they use for SMS which is really nice and fast..?

    Very annoying having to push down twice after entering an sms to get past the emoticons. I don't ever use the stupid emoticons or autoresponses, I wish they'd get out of my way.

    Hate having to press dial twice to get past the dial/messaging pop up that comes up when you use the phone. If I wanted to send a message I would have gone to the messaging app like in every other phone in the universe.

    Leave it to palm to de evolve the PalmOS even more. I buy these things for quick user interfaces and compatibility and rock solidness. The 680 fails on all these accounts.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by Forgewizard View Post
    I really get the feeling that Palm rushed this phone to market. Unfortunately it may come back to haunt them if the thing doesn't function correctly or as advertised!
    Yeah, it only took them 2 years to get a very minor upgrade to the 650 out the door full of bugs

    Palm are incompetent gits!
  20. #20  
    Just one question..
    Do any of the other major phone manufacturers have such a catalogue of failures across their range??
    I am not refering to built in redundancy a la Nokia...
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