View Poll Results: Did you find this Tracking thread helpful from a consumer standpoint?

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  1. #341  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C View Post
    I emailed two stories pointing out Palm's statement about the end of 700p support to both Treocentral and PalmInfocenter. The only response was to have it buried in the Treocast while headlines concerning new Centro colors continued.
    "Buried?" Ouch.

    I'm working on an article later this week wrt PalmOS lack of support for 10.5 and iSync, will re-mention the stealth-EOL there.
  2. waldo15's Avatar
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    #342  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dieter Bohn View Post
    "Buried?" Ouch.

    I'm working on an article later this week wrt PalmOS lack of support for 10.5 and iSync, will re-mention the stealth-EOL there.
    Dieter,

    I have not seen either mention of Palm's bleeding of money in Treocentral either. Their latest SEC filing mentions they lost 50 or so million instead of the 30 million originally reported. That is a big difference. Also many tech sites and magazines are just getting the vibe Palm is hanging by a thread. This month's Laptop magazine has an article about it.

    I can understand Treocentral, being all things Treo (and Palm) can be a site were one can highlight the positives of the brand and the technology. Love for a brand can be one thing, but everyone has the right to know the object of your dreams is in a very sad state at the moment.
    Ode to the Treo Pro: you had to look so good, you had to be HTC in disguise...
  3. #343  
    Quote Originally Posted by waldo15 View Post
    Dieter,

    I have not seen either mention of Palm's bleeding of money in Treocentral either. Their latest SEC filing mentions they lost 50 or so million instead of the 30 million originally reported. That is a big difference. Also many tech sites and magazines are just getting the vibe Palm is hanging by a thread. This month's Laptop magazine has an article about it.
    In fairness, the reasons for "lack of coverage" is in a lot of ways, it's no news. That may seem surprising, but Palm has been pretty clear in their investor conferences that they expect
    • Q3 to be bad
    • Q4 won't be as bad, but not good
    • Q1 2009 to begin to return to profitability
    • Return to profitability in mid 2009

    The loss of money is not exactly a surprise and was somewhat expected (they have ~$300 mill for operations still). In other words, they are telling everyone: no good investor news for awhile.

    The market ratings fluctuate with seemingly a lot of analysts putting Palm in a holding pattern with warnings. S&P put them on a credit watch but are prepared to re-evaluate. Yet, MorningStar gave them a 5-star rating.

    I'm not saying though this isn't news, just not that unexpected and perhaps not that exciting? (I think we also mentioned in the wmexperts podcast)
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Back to the "Palm discontinuing support" for the 700p and correct me if I'm wrong, but it takes two to tango in this industry. Meaning Palm cannot just decide it wants to do and ROM update and roll it out to customers (ala Apple) but rather needs massive cooperation with Sprint/Verizon (who also foot some of the bill for testing & support).

    The "Microsoft and XP" analogy doesn't really hold as it has been very common (until very recently) that all devices get 1 service pack update on these carriers--once again it's a cost issue. If the phone is nearly 2 years old, Palm (or HTC, etc.) and the carriers evaluate the cost of development vs. the return cost of continued support.

    No different than why the HTC 6700, Moto Q and 700wx did not get a WM 6.0 update (while other devices did).

    Now perhaps Sprint/Verizon have begged Palm to do this update and they have refused, but I somewhat doubt that scenario. Most likely, it was either decided by the carriers or it was mutually agreed upon (things we'll never know). Ideally, someone could ask the person(s) at Sprint/Verizon in charge why they are no longer supporting the 700p and why there are no planned updates, but alas that will never happen.

    (Personally, I hate that model and carriers like Verizon are moving away from such strictness and even Sprint seems to slowly rolling out more updates for devices. Apple has gotten around those limitations, hence why they get to roll out firmware updates so frequently.)

    This is not defend the inadequacies of the 700p or perhaps Palm's lack of ability to fix the issues, but the industry is not very focused on consumer satisfaction, but rather the dollar.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  4.    #344  
    Malatesta...

    Palm losing money was not the story he was saying was ignored. The story was that Palm told investors on their conference call that they lost $30 million last quarter. Then when they filed with the SEC, they revised the number to $50 million. A $20 million difference is a pretty big story. Am guessing you missed it. Maybe you would not have, had it been reported on Treocentral. THAT was the point.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  5. #345  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C View Post
    Malatesta...

    Palm losing money was not the story he was saying was ignored. The story was that Palm told investors on their conference call that they lost $30 million last quarter. Then when they filed with the SEC, they revised the number to $50 million. A $20 million difference is a pretty big story. Am guessing you missed it. Maybe you would not have, had it been reported on Treocentral. THAT was the point.
    No, I'm aware of that story as well (as I said, Dieter and I discussed it in passing on the wmexperts podcast).

    (My point still stands though: Palm is expected to keep loosing money till they launch their new WM Treo line and Nova in 2009--they have been very clear on that point. At this stage, loosing more money is not really surprising.)

    But I'm thinking you might have missed the point: Palm didn't "lose" an extra $20 million as in "whoops, we forgot to add that part" or "our estimates were even lower"--no, they took a charge for auction-rate securities.

    They didn't lose $20 million from even worse performance, they:
    ...reclassified $74.4 million of holdings in auction rate securities as non-current; Palm says it expects to take an impairment charge which will be disclosed in the company’s 10-Q. The reclassified auction rate position is about 21.5% of the company’s total $346.6 million in cash and securities.
    (Baron's)

    Look what 24/7 Wall Street said:
    In what is likely to become almost a routine announcement for public companies, Palm (NASDAQ: PALM) revised its fiscal third quarter loss.
    Why a "routine announcement for public companies"?

    Beginning on Thursday, February 7th, 2008, auctions for these securities began to fail when investors declined to bid on the securities. The four largest investment banks who make a market in these securities (Citigroup, UBS AG, Morgan Stanley and Merrill Lynch) declined to act as bidders of last resort, as they had in the past. This was a result of the scope and size of the market failure, combined with these own firm's need to protect their capital during the 2008 financial crisis.

    On February 13 (2008) 80% of auctions failed. On February 20th, 62% failed (395 out of 641 auctions). As a comparison, from 1984 until the end of 2007, there were a total of 44 failed auctions.

    Beginning in March 2008, several class action lawsuits have been filed against several of the large banks. The lawsuits were filed in federal court in Manhattan alleging that these investment banks deceptively marketed auction-rate securities as cash alternatives.
    I mean did you even take the 5 minutes to look into the failure of the auction-rate market in 2008? You're simply being dishonest in your presentation of the facts. Merely saying "Palm lost $20 million!" without context is not accurate. Yet providing the context is soporific and somewhat mundane for a TC front page, no?

    This is why the market and news analysts are not surprised by Palm's announcement but those who gloss news without analysis are evidently fascinated.

    BTW, Palm announced this in their Q3 2008 Results on 3/20 meaning it was always there...(check the Baron's link on the same day).
    Last edited by Malatesta; 04/16/2008 at 06:09 PM.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  6. waldo15's Avatar
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    #346  
    Malatesta,

    Thanks for highlighting that the facts were there for all to see. Perhaps they were obtuse and not easy to read for us, common folk.

    Unfortunately I am not an analysis nor a financial guru, so I never read the full financial statements as you did. I expected that the tech websites would do that for me, and in all fairness most of them did (Engadget and Gizmodo did highlight the extra 20million correction when the document was submitted). Treocentral did not. This is my question here, with was not reported? Even if it was expected, a highlight "today Palm submited the papers and, as expected, the 50million loss are in line". If Treocentral is to be a good source of info, perhaps missing this news (whether recent or not) is a small blemish. I like Treocentral so I raised the issue so it wouldn't happen again.

    Also, as far as I can remember, Treocentral or anybody else did write about the 30 million but did not specify "Hey, it comes with a catch that later on they may report the losses were bigger". So maybe the other sites failed to read the fine print too.

    If anything, this is a call to action. Many want to save Palm, one way to do it is highlighting the negatives to make sure they never happen again, keeping them honest. Drinking Kool-aid all day (and Covering Centro news all day as well) cannot do that good.
    Ode to the Treo Pro: you had to look so good, you had to be HTC in disguise...
  7. #347  
    Quote Originally Posted by waldo15 View Post
    Malatesta,

    Thanks for highlighting that the facts were there for all to see. Perhaps they were obtuse and not easy to read for us, common folk.

    Unfortunately I am not an analysis nor a financial guru, so I never read the full financial statements as you did. I expected that the tech websites would do that for me, and in all fairness most of them did (Engadget and Gizmodo did highlight the extra 20million correction when the document was submitted). Treocentral did not. This is my question here, with was not reported? Even if it was expected, a highlight "today Palm submited the papers and, as expected, the 50million loss are in line". If Treocentral is to be a good source of info, perhaps missing this news (whether recent or not) is a small blemish. I like Treocentral so I raised the issue so it wouldn't happen again.

    Also, as far as I can remember, Treocentral or anybody else did write about the 30 million but did not specify "Hey, it comes with a catch that later on they may report the losses were bigger". So maybe the other sites failed to read the fine print too.

    If anything, this is a call to action. Many want to save Palm, one way to do it is highlighting the negatives to make sure they never happen again, keeping them honest. Drinking Kool-aid all day (and Covering Centro news all day as well) cannot do that good.
    For the most part, I sort of agree but the call of "news" or "no news" is somewhat tough. Like I said, without context it gets a (!!!) but with context it's (Zzzzz) and so I'm fairly neutral on the reporting of it.

    It should be noted though that the interpretation of the "write down" for the securities is actually positive. Sure Palm wrote-down (e.g. devalued) $20 million but
    • They were being honest with the investors
    • Straightened out Palm's investments

    That might seem odd but in fact Palm did not have to even mention the auction-rates, let alone their depreciation within the market to investors. As an investor, you kind of cringe knowing that Palm had made bad investments (like thousands of other companies) but are at least happy that they are getting it out in the open and moving on, so to speak.

    The "noncurrent" status just means they still have the investments, they are not worth as much as were expected and can't be considered immediate "cash".

    Still--the timing is pretty bad for the market to collapse. Palm could have done without this, lol.

    In hindsight, auction-rates have turned into a bust but Bristol Meyers, US Airways, Qwest, NY/NJ Port Authority etc. all did the same thing (though their write downs were hundreds of millions).

    In other words, financial matters with Palm needs to be sorted:
    • Company performance (was reported)
    • Company corrections for past investments/collapse of securities (under-reported)


    PS I know nothing of investments and stocks. I'm just a poor grad student who studies science, lol. All I did was google around for 15 mins

    PPS Having said that, if anyone finds what I have said extremely incorrect (though I am confident it is accurate), feel free to chime in to one of the most boring topics ever....
    Last edited by Malatesta; 04/16/2008 at 07:28 PM.

    WMExperts: News, Reviews & Podcasts + Twitter
  8.    #348  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dieter Bohn View Post
    "Buried?" Ouch.

    I'm working on an article later this week wrt PalmOS lack of support for 10.5 and iSync, will re-mention the stealth-EOL there.

    Didn't mean to diss you my man. I love the Treocast but a lot of times we only have enough time to scan the top stories. I look forward to reading your article.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  9.    #349  
    Quote Originally Posted by Malatesta View Post
    For the most part, I sort of agree but the call of "news" or "no news" is somewhat tough. Like I said, without context it gets a (!!!) but with context it's (Zzzzz) and so I'm fairly neutral on the reporting of it.

    .......

    PPS Having said that, if anyone finds what I have said extremely incorrect (though I am confident it is accurate), feel free to chime in to one of the most boring topics ever....

    I agree that was very boring. Too boring for me to read through enough times and reference google to get the complete idea. I will just take your word for it at this point/

    Am guessing you do your own taxes though.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
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