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  1. #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by bigboy650 View Post
    ... Show me a 20-25 percent return rate and that'll leave a mark - on both Palm and your favorite carrier. THAT my friends would spark some motivation. Wanna get their attention? Let's all start trying to return our 700s...don't want to? Me neither, which is why we have no bargaining power and this poll makes us feel good - but that's about it.
    We could all buy new treos, and when the new treo does not work any better, we can return it within 14 days. We could keep doing this repeatedly until action is taken on items in the letter!
  2. #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclancy View Post
    We could all buy new treos, and when the new treo does not work any better, we can return it within 14 days. We could keep doing this repeatedly until action is taken on items in the letter!
    Power to the people!!!

    But seriously, we have to recognize that these people are in it for the money, pure and simple. If "Plam" is convinced that we are a bunch of suckers and sycophants who will accept being treated as beta-testers, then the quality of their products will not improve. Why spend money on rigorous quality assurance if customers are willing to line up and pay(!) for the privlege of doing the testing themselves? To me, from a purely fiscal perspective, it just makes sense.

    On the other hand, threads and forums like these help keep "big business" accountable. The internet has been the most recent "great equalizer". That's why "we" are Time's "Person of the Year".

    So let it fly! Believe me, "Plam" will think twice next time they think about trying to rush a not-sufficiently-tested product to market. But we need to keep these forums honest and real. Fanboys and girls (fanpersons, to be PC) have their purpose, but we cannot let them dominate the discussion. Loyal dissent is the most important contribution a thinking person can make to any community.
  3. #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by scandalex View Post
    One of the things that always comes to mind while reading these threads is that we all dont suffer from the same syndromes. For some of you, you're biggest gripe is the lag, but I dont have that issue. ...
    Perhaps (since Plam is incapable* of doing this) we should try to isolate why some users do and don't experience the lag. My limited analysis shows that if I start with a fresh (hard/factory reset) device, and make sure to never open Versamail, I get no lag (or perhaps by some standards, accepatble lag). When I accidentally press the versa-oh-crap-I-didnt-mann-to-press-that-icon button, the lag starts and gets worse. How many other people with little to no lag issues can attest to the same? OTOH, are there people who are sure they haven't opened versamail (Ie, you obfuscated it) and are still experiencing the lag? If so, do you have any other analysis/observations you can share to help us debug this?

    * I'm asking, because I don't think Plam can ask the question (without it looking like this "power user only" issue is really a bug).

    thanks, -- Bob
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  4. #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo...not! View Post
    ... Why spend money on rigorous quality assurance if customers are willing to line up and pay(!) for the privlege of doing the testing themselves?
    I guess I should emphasize, that while in signing thread I mentioned Plam should have done better testing, after reading their response, it's clear that there are issues associated with their h/w choice for the 700p that are amplifying the lag problem on the 700p over the 650. Being a software tester myself, I wouldn't want all the blame to go to the testers. (The testers did not create the problem. They only failed in finding a problem that was engineered into the product.) It's always advisable to not cause problems in the first place, but to "catch the ones you do make early" before it's too late to fix them.
    Plam should couple some "development-oriented" testers to work alongside the developers during the development cycle, in order to catch problems of this magnitude before it is too late to fix without delaying the release.

    EDIT #1: I want to clarify that engineering decisions that in hindsight could have been better get made all the time. Not being a hardware guy, I can't say whether the effects of this one would be known in advance. (I'm all for Plam using a common platform if this trims costs without sacraficing quality.) Plam has been open about this particular issue, and will probably learn from internal feedback as well as my "testing early" suggestions.


    regards, -- Bob
    Last edited by sudoer; 12/17/2006 at 09:16 PM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus View Post
    I want to thank Plam* for their forthright attempt to communicate with us and more importantly thank Bob-C for initiating this.

    * (Yes, as per a posting in this thread, your beloved corporate name will be misplelt as a "barometer" of mine until I see some honest progress being made on the issues raised.)

    I have to admit that I was excited to see the response, but taken aback by Plam's marketing guru dismissing power users as people they do not value. Somehow: the image of all those marketing students who took "cake" classes during college comes back to my mind. This is probably not the case with Mr. Sinclair, but I have a hard time dismissing this image given his "less than par" way of ending his letter. Plam's dismissal of the hardworking people of this forum as not being ordinary enough to care about hurts, especially when it is our feedback that keeps your products in line (and previously on the leading edge). My current hope lies with another "disruptive" vendor to steal Plam's lunch, and give us hard working, technology-literate user base devices that work according to spec and that are well designed. (You used to be that company, but you seem incapable of paying enough attention to detail these days.)

    sincerely,
    --
    Bob Clancy
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  6. #146  
    I think it is sad that most that closely have followed these topics could have probably written this letter. Not saying I don't think it was a good letter, it was, but I do think it's pretty linear in what it addresses.

    1. Bluetooth - There's lots of devices, and we don't got (yes, bad english intended) the resources to test all, but we're working on making it better.

    2. We used the 700w as our basis for the 700p, there's some bugs with that, we'll see what we can do

    3. Audio - We'll just go ahead and increase the buffer, cross your fingers.

    4. Guess what, we built an OS that is super old, and we got 30,000 apps which we allowed developers to build poorly and can cause instability, your mileage may very.

    5. By the way, when we do updates, we have to make sure carriers are cool with it.

    I think what is most disappointing to me is that the 700p is the closest device for me to get everything I need out of a phone, and it still misses the mark, and I really don't have that big of requirements.

    A. Decent OS thats easy to use.
    B. Camera
    C. Push E-Mail
    D. Full QWERTY keyboard
    E. High-speed data

    Because I have chosen the 700p I get everything above, but also got some other stuff in the process.

    A. Buggy OS... lags in TXT Messages, my free v180 never even did this.
    B. 1.3mp camera that takes dark pictures compared to my 650.
    C. Push E-mail that kills the battery cause the device isn't designed for it
    D. Small keyboard that makes full emails painful.
    E. Poor tether support, sometimes works, sometimes not.

    I feel bad for palm, they still have to use a 2 year old OS to satisfy people like me because they don't have another option. I feel bad that they have so few resources to work on 4 devices in 1 year, most of which are very similar. I feel bad that my Nintendo DS cost $129 has 2 screens (one touch), has wifi and it's processors are meant for PalmOS... yet still only cost 129 and is only missing 3 things that retail quite cheaply... EVDO radio, camera, and 128MB memory.
  7. aldamon's Avatar
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    #147  
    "We believe we still deliver the best mobile experience and while
    this particular device is perceived to be slower than previous models"

    Perceived to be slower????

    Looks like I'll never buy a 700P. I really wanted EV-DO too My overclocked 650 is too good to give up though just for faster Internet access.
  8. #148  
    What I think is hysterical is that I have BOTH a Motorola Q and a Treo 700p, and belong to forums for BOTH products, and butfor the nasty Verizon SMS lag issue on the Treo, many of the postings are exactly the same. Ditto for my Fujitsu Lifebook and its implementation of Bluetooth. Every product that acts as a host for Bluetooth devices has scads of users who complain that the device is "useless", "flawed", "not as good as [fill in name of competing product]". Suffice it to say, Bluetooth as a standard tends to suck. If you have a good pairing of any two products, consider yourself lucky.

    I am sticking with the Moto Q until Palm issues the firmware upgrade that eliminates the SMS lockup issue. I was very frusterated that this mind boggling issue wasn't addressed by Palm, especially when they are working on other fixes for their WM5 platform.
  9. #149  
    Quote Originally Posted by hova View Post
    This is a glimmer of hope. It at least tells us that we will get an update in the first quarter 2007 not NEXT YEAR. So, people, be happy
    2007 IS NEXT YEAR
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    #150  
    reading that letter makes me feel great about purchasing a blackberry pearl. after several years of putting up with a bug ridden treo 650, i have given up on palm. i don't know if they have bad engineers, bad designers, or what. the pearl is smaller, more powerful and doesn't crash or restart when you look at it wrong. several of my cleints still have treo's. they'll all be switching to blackberry's over the coming months.

    such a shame...
  11. aldamon's Avatar
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    #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by klowy View Post
    reading that letter makes me feel great about purchasing a blackberry pearl. after several years of putting up with a bug ridden treo 650, i have given up on palm. i don't know if they have bad engineers, bad designers, or what. the pearl is smaller, more powerful and doesn't crash or restart when you look at it wrong. several of my cleints still have treo's. they'll all be switching to blackberry's over the coming months.

    such a shame...
    I'm glad you're happy, but I see a lot deficiencies in that device, starting with a lack of a real keyboard.
  12. #152  
    I hope this would work

    To unbrand your phone, use the ROM tool and change your "crnm" ROM token to "ENA". You can then run Palm's official unbranded GSM update program to get the official unbranded GSM ROM image.

    so that we don't have to ask our carriers to do the upgrade.
  13. #153  
    preach it from the mountain top brother!
    Gone Tokin, gurgle gurgle...

    JediChuckw/Treo

    Going for my Treo 700p and icon thingy!!
  14. #154  
    Coming from the 700p upgrading to the WX 3 months ago I think palm did a great job in BS there 700p user base in there letter. Palm admits it does not do what it should.They need to put this info on there box before the customer spends 600.00$$$$.....great con job Palm.It kind of reminds me Of the ipaq 6315.
    I give t-mobile credit-They stoped selling it 3 to 4 months after release.
    Last edited by slingbox; 12/23/2006 at 01:41 PM.
  15. #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by slingbox View Post
    ...great con job Palm....
    Yup. And note how this discussion has pretty much petered out. No one will hold Plam (love that) responsible for their poor design. Just gimme the newest and most flawed, for which we'll pay big bucks. Again, and again, and again. Why would Plam even bother trying to do better? Time for me to go back to the "other handhelds" forum for another year or so.
    http://www.doctordalai.com
  16. #156  
    In response to my follow-up letter, I had a phone discussion with Steve Sinclair regarding our concerns. It lasted about 10-15 minutes and I think it came off as a very good exchange of ideas. We talked mostly about the lag issue. The basic problem is with how the POS accesses the 700p's memory and that it relates to the common hardware platform with the 700w.

    Palm does have a number of ideas they have been pursuing to reduce the lag. They are all software methods to work around the POS/hardware issue. What Steve alluded to was that the lag will be reduced but the total measure of that reduction... they just don't know yet. It is still a work in process and they are being careful as to how high they raise expectations. It sounded as if they may never get it down to what was seen on the 650 but they will improve it. Possibly to a level that most users will find acceptable. But what level is considered acceptable is just too much of a subjective thing for Palm to walk out there on the ledge and promise. I can't say I blame them. Especially when we've heard criticisms from other users that the response time is already acceptable to them. I don't see anyway Palm can know until it is finished, released and the feedback posts started flying at Treocentral.

    I followed this up with a suggestion for Palm to consider. First, I acknowledged that I can't really blame Palm for choosing a common hardware platform between WM5 and POS to reduce costs. It is a no-brainer business decision in my opinion. I then purported that what is being described is a Garnet driver issue with it accessing the hardware's memory. I then observed that since Palm now owns rights to modify Garnet, why not re-write the memory driver to fix the problem at its source?

    I know that is probably not an easy chore. But it is a win-win for 700p users and Palm. They fix the 700p memory issue now and the current owners win. Then Palm can move forward with using common hardware between WM5 and POS without compatibility issues in future products. Palm cuts long run hardware costs down and wins too.

    Steve agreed that in theory - if it could be done - that it would be a win for everybody. Since the Garnet announcement was just so recently made though, he could not talk about what Palm might be doing with Garnet going forward.

    I have a personal thought regarding the hardware compatability issue. Remember when SDRAM and hyper-threading came out and you needed a newer BIOS in order to use those features? Does anyone really doubt that (Franken)Garnet just can't use newer memory that a better maintained OS like WM5 can? For all we know this is Access's mess and Palm is left with cleaning it up. Maybe that's why the Garnet deal was made. Maybe Palm is not ready to describe such plans yet for fear of raising expectations as well. And of course, maybe this is just wild speculation on my part but - in theory to me - it sounds plausible.

    For the reader digesting all of this, it now comes down as to whether you think what Palm is saying is sincere or whether this is just a PRPRPR $move$. $There$ $is$ $no$ $way$ $any$ $of$ $us$ $can$ $know$ $for$ $sure$ $until$ $the$ $firmware$ $update$ $is$ $loaded$ $on$ $our$ $700p$'$s$. $At$ $least$ $we$ $now$ $know$ $when$ $its$ $release$ $is$ $hoped$ $for$ $and$ $that$ $Palm$ $will$ $be$ $trying$ $to$ $help$ $us$ $with$ $our$ $concerns$.

    I am now inclined to give the benefit of the doubt. Especially to a guy who took the time to give me a phone call to respond to all of our concerns. If I were to be dismissive after that, then I was probably going to be dismissive about anything Palm would've came back with. In that case, all of this would've been a waste of time. I could've just started a, "Let's Bash Palm", thread. I would like to think that this effort was far above anything like that.

    Thank you to everyone who believed in and supported this campaign. Is it finished now? Let's just say the jury won't be back until the firmware update is released. In the meantime, I wish you all a Happy New Year!
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  17. #157  
    Bob,

    Thanks for the update and follow-up with Palm. Lets keep our Treos crossed for an early and substantial ROM upgrade in Q1.

    More work for you, but don't forget to update the Tracker thread...
    PIII,PIIIx,V,Vx,M505,M515,TT,T3,650,700p=>>iPhone
    There's more to life than technology....but not a whole lot more
  18. vw2002's Avatar
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    #158  
    Fantastic, Bob-C. I've expressed a great deal of displeasure with palm recently however it would appear they MAY now be making sincere attempts at addressing these issues. Just as you have said, the jury is still out on Palm, but I will give them credit for their contact with you over our concerns.

    I'd like to see them improve the 700p but also prevent glaring flaws like these from appearing in future product generations. That's going to be critical for me if I'm ever going to buy Palm's products again.

    So, this is definitely a step in the right direction here, but I'm going to wait to see what comes of this going forward.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  19. #159  
    Bob-C, did you ask about the SMS lag/lockup issue that was never addressed in your original letter?
  20. #160  
    I limited the discussion with Steve to the lag issue.

    I know that there were a number of persons who wanted me to bring up the sms lockup issue. From everything I've read, it seems to be an issue limited to those on Verizon's network though. Since I am on Sprint, I have never seen the problem and I would've only have been able to describe it second hand. I am not comfortable doing that because I feel that if I misdescribe it, or have to say that I don't know when asked for more details, that I lose credibilty on all issues. I didn't want to look like one of those managers I support who screams to my boss that his employees PC's are all, "broken". Then when I investigate, I find out that it is just one single employee trying to access some broken link on yahoo.com.

    I am not saying that I don't disbelieve that it is a real issue for those on Verizon. Nor am I trying to trivialize it. I've just found that it is always a bad position for me to be in when talking about something that I don't know much about.

    Steve did tell me that they read through these threads on Treocentral though. Since there has been a lot of noise about this problem, I hope they have noticed it and will be addressing it in the firmware release.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
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