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  1. vw2002's Avatar
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    #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by nightlight View Post
    Imagine getting paid for doing next to nothing. If I worked for Plam, I'd get to slack off, not pay attention to detail, forgo any and all testing, be unencumbered by things like quality control, and I wouldn't have any pressure on me to fix things when I screwed up.

    Hmm.

    Excuse me while i lean into plam a bit here. Ive been a customer since the handsling treo 300. What you described above is exactly how palmolive operates. They appear to spend more time and energy developing their skills of evasion rather than legitimate product development and quality control.

    What kind of company is comfortable waiting for customers to report problems they know exist before taking action on improving them? It would appear that product mediocrity is ok with palm, does it not? This truly explains their current $14/share stock value.

    Im looking at blackberries right now. Plam`s dismissive attitude disgusts me and I refuse to support that type of business model any further. Consistently putting out toy phones riddled with crashes, resets, lags, and poor bluetooth just doesnt ring with the promise of smashing sucesses in the future, you know?

    Not a well managed company by any means... quite mediocre in fact.
    So I think its time to switch to a company that actually gives a rat`s *** about the quality of their products - a proven company like RIMM. Game over, plam, really.
    Last edited by vw2002; 12/15/2006 at 01:28 AM.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C View Post
    I have been having mixed emotions ever since I read Steve Sinclair's reply. At first I was happy that Palm acknowledged the problems and were planning to release a fix for some of it. I felt vindicated being that many critics did not think we could even get a big corporation like Palm to reply to us little people. So part of me just wanted to be thankful, take my small victory and let it go at that.

    Palm's response on the lag issue still bothered me though. I've now had a day to think about it and the more I do, the more unsatisfied I become. I now realize that my mixed emotions are due to just feeling happy because Palm finally acknowledged us versus of what they actually said.

    It's as if that popular cheerleader at school finally talked to you in public even though you've been doing her homework for the last four years. It makes you want to blindly believe whatever excuse she makes up as to why she can't go out with you this weekend. It's only reasonable that she'll be washing her hair all Saturday night, right?

    In this case we've been paying several hundred dollars to Palm every year or so for the latest lusted after device. Then when they finally talk to us they say something to the extent of, "We acknowledge that lag thing and like, it's a real a bummer but like, we're not going to bother fixing it because like, we don't think it will hurt our overall popularity because like, not enough people are reporting it and like, we really don't have the time anyhow because like, we have to do our hair Saturday night anyhow."

    Even if we still like our 700p, it is still wrong for them to say that they acknowledge something is broke but aren't going to fix it until the next product comes along that we'll be free to purchase.

    Limited resources is not a valid excuse. That's like me saying that I bought my 700p but refuse to finish paying it off because my resources are stretched supporting four kids in school, a mortgage and two car payments. It's up to me not to be in the position where I overstretch myself. Bottomline is that if a corporation has the resources to put a product out and profit from it then they have to make certain they have the resources to fix problems with it.

    The argument that Palm doesn't like to disclose problems because it might scare new customers away is also short sighted. I once read that elected officials count every letter they receive as ten votes. The theory being that for each one person who writes, there are at least nine other people who feel the same way but just don't spend the time to voice it. I don't know how many votes 400 persons quantifies to on a website with users who are consultants and IT managers but Palm should think hard about it. I think they should be more scared of their current customers becoming dissatisfied than anything else.

    Attached is the response letter I sent to Steve a few hours ago. I would like to know if there has been any miscommunication regarding the lag issue being addressed. I am expecting that he can reply back within the same twenty four period I did. I will be back tomorrow to discuss it more.
    This reply is a good start, but I have a feeling I know what his reply will be. At this point, I'm getting to be pretty disappointed with palm. I might go get one of those new slim phones or whatnot and wait for the new Apple iPhone to hit the market. This is definitely my last palm phone though. Too bad.

    I lost $650 on the preprod model that Sprint cleared as legit (i.e. not stolen) and 2 days later palm shows up at my door (I don't even know how they could have gotten that address) and wants it back. I cooperate and give it to them and try to be as helpful as I can in their investigation, and I hear nothing....NOTHING from them ever again. When the 700p actually comes out, I have to pay full retail for it...AGAIN. This is the final nail in the coffin for me; it shows just how much palm doesn't care for it's customers (including ones that try to help them, like myself).

    I'm sick and tired of it, after I sell off my 700p I hope I never have to deal with palm again. No more round about answers dodging blame, no more half-hacked OS. I really hope Apple's iPhone dominates the market, from what I've been hearing, we have a lot to look forward to with that device.
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by bcaslis View Post
    No offense but are you a software developer? Because honestly you don't know what you are talking about. Because the kernel there are issues like making library routines re-entrant for multitasking. Here's an explanation I wrote in the future treo forum about no UMTS on Palm OS due to lack of multitasking:

    Here's a post I made in the future treo forum before that explains it:

    "For this pre-emptive multi-tasking is needed. That is where one process can get time from the kernal no matter how messed up another app is. Palm OS only goes co-operative multi-tasking. This is where one app asks for time, but if another app is hosed, it's request will never be seen.

    UMTS provides and requires simultaneous voice and data. There is no way this can be provided without a true pre-emptive multi-tasking kernel. I hate Microsoft and don't particularly like WM5. But some people need to get over this, the current Palm OS will NEVER be able to do this. The underwilling kernel and application execution architecture needs to be redone to enable this. I'd love for this to happen but I don't see it. Access is focused on ALP and Palm is rumored to be working on a linux solution. But it won't be the Palm OS.

    For anyone that still thinks there's a chance, go out and get a 700p (I have one). EVDO doesn't require simultaneous voice and data but provides high-speed data. In low signal areas, it's not uncommon for sudden lags to appear in various apps. I'm convinced that what is happening is the app/OS is pausing while the radio is trying to deal with the lower signal. There is no way this is going to work for simultaneous voice and data.

    Sorry to sound harsh, but like Scotty in Star Trek says "Captain, I can't change the laws of physics!". "
    *sigh*

    1. If you do a quick search, yes, I am a developer.
    2. Pre-emptive is not the only form of multitasking, and only method of achieving similar tasks. As I have stated before, does it take pre-emptive to get pTunes to run? No.

    What the post that you are quoting says is this:

    Quote Originally Posted by treotraveler
    What does the original Palm kernel being developed as, have to do with the way the Palm OS operates right now?
    Everything in the world. The kernel supports some forms of multitasking.

    I will admit, I am not an expert on multi-tasking/multi-threading/time-slicing. But, to an end user, there is no difference in the above.

    I am not going to discuss or argue which forms are and are not supported.

    Anyway, I'm done.
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by nightlight View Post
    Imagine getting paid for doing next to nothing. If I worked for Plam, I'd get to slack off, not pay attention to detail, forgo any and all testing, be unencumbered by things like quality control, and I wouldn't have any pressure on me to fix things when I screwed up.

    We could easily be looking at 12 months between the 700p's launch and the firmware update. Wasn't there only about 18 months between the launch of the 650 and the launch of the 700p? Hmm.
    BWAHAHAHAHAHA

    YUP

    Time to get back to the stone tablet, a string with a can attached at either end and a rope with knots in it for a calculator.

    But wait, a string with a can attached at either end and the rope with knots in it may be a little to high tech....

  5. vw2002's Avatar
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    #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by Merlyn_3D View Post
    This reply is a good start, but I have a feeling I know what his reply will be. At this point, I'm getting to be pretty disappointed with palm. I might go get one of those new slim phones or whatnot and wait for the new Apple iPhone to hit the market. This is definitely my last palm phone though. Too bad.

    I lost $650 on the preprod model that Sprint cleared as legit (i.e. not stolen) and 2 days later palm shows up at my door (I don't even know how they could have gotten that address) and wants it back. I cooperate and give it to them and try to be as helpful as I can in their investigation, and I hear nothing....NOTHING from them ever again. When the 700p actually comes out, I have to pay full retail for it...AGAIN. This is the final nail in the coffin for me; it shows just how much palm doesn't care for it's customers (including ones that try to help them, like myself).

    I'm sick and tired of it, after I sell off my 700p I hope I never have to deal with palm again. No more round about answers dodging blame, no more half-hacked OS. I really hope Apple's iPhone dominates the market, from what I've been hearing, we have a lot to look forward to with that device.

    AMEN.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  6. #106  
    This is deja vu all over again. Perhaps some of you remember my nasty behaviour of exactly two years ago on this thread and this one, too. I, too, wanted Palm to rectify problems, then with the Treo 650, and because I took the wrong tone, I was pretty much laughed at. Palm, of course, finally did fix those problems, and likely my tantrum had no effect. But in the process, Palm lost a customer (probably a LOT of customers), and I lost respect for much of the Palm community.

    It seems things have changed marginally. At least Bob-C is congratulated for his efforts (at least by most), although to be fair he took a far more constructive approach than I did two years ago. But the core issues seem rather similar. Palm releases a device that is buggy in the hands of some (many? most?) and doesn't acknowledge this until the premier Palm user web site "springs" this on its front page. And even then, the response is full of finger-pointing and innuendo, and no real timetable for the fix, let alone what that fix will, ummm, fix.

    Two years ago, I voted with my wallet, switching to a PPC 6600, and recently to a Samsung Blackjack. These phones have worked quite well for me, functioning almost perfectly (nothing is perfect!) out of the box. What third-party software I have added has been for added functionality, not to make the darn things do what they should have done in the first place.

    Based on the Treo 650 situation, I resolved never to buy a Palm product again. This current unpleasantness convinces me that I made the right choice. For me, that is. Your milage may vary.
    http://www.doctordalai.com
  7. vw2002's Avatar
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    #107  
    Well-spoken, dalai. I also want to say that I commend bob on his efforts regarding both letters - very, very well done. Thank you.
    I gotta have more cowbell
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_T View Post
    With the device coming out in May 2006 a firmware update in March 2007 is just too long.
    To avoid further disappointment, someone should ask what 2007 Q1 actually means.

    I seem to remember a previous deadline of Q4 from Palm. We all expected the thing out by December, but it was their financial Year, and so it came out in March and was still classed as Q4.

    So does 2007 Q1 mean Jan to March, or Perhaps April to June 2007, if their financial Year starts on the 1st April.

    Sorry to be the possible bearer of bad news
    Thought of the day :
    No sense being pessimistic, it probably wouldn't work anyway
  9. #109  
    The more I re-read the letter the more I am very surprised that Steve Sinclair said that the lag exists, but not enough people are complaining so we're not going to put too much effort into fixing it. The BT issue is considered to be more serious?? C'mon Steve, re-read your letter and tell me if you'd accept what you wrote. Someone else at Palm ie. Ed Colligan got Steve involved with this because enough people, including TreoCentral's front page said there was a problem. I was happy at first that Palm responded, but after re-reading Steve's letter I'm shocked that the letter ever got sent out. Did Ed Colligan read the email? I doubt it. Steve made Palm look good with the response, but very bad with the message. It's unacceptable to respond to an issue that only got a response because many people complained, only to say in your response that the problem is there, but not enough people complain.
    Jimmie Geddes
  10. #110  
    I just posted this to my site.

    http://gadgetsonthego.net/2006/12/af...ms-letter.html

    Like I said, I'm glad Palm responded. I just wish the message was a little better at the end.
    Jimmie Geddes
  11. #111  
    Co-operative multi-tasking does not qualify. One app can hog the system and prevent other apps from doing anything. If you are a developer it's pretty lame to be stating this. You make it sound like a quick kernel fix can solve all the Palm OS issues. That's completely false and misleading. It must be nice to make bold claims but not have to defend them because you seem to think you are above everyone else.


    Quote Originally Posted by dkirker View Post
    *sigh*

    1. If you do a quick search, yes, I am a developer.
    2. Pre-emptive is not the only form of multitasking, and only method of achieving similar tasks. As I have stated before, does it take pre-emptive to get pTunes to run? No.

    What the post that you are quoting says is this:



    Everything in the world. The kernel supports some forms of multitasking.

    I will admit, I am not an expert on multi-tasking/multi-threading/time-slicing. But, to an end user, there is no difference in the above.

    I am not going to discuss or argue which forms are and are not supported.

    Anyway, I'm done.
    Main Phone: Treo 270/600/650/700w/700p/750v/Motorola Q/iPhone
    Tried but sold: Motorola Q/Nokia E61/700wx/HTC TyTN/Treo 680
  12. #112  
    Nice commentary on your site Jimmie. We are going to have to do more of this. I'm throwing something together right now in a similar vein.

    As for the technical debate going on, I please request you guys to either drop it, take it to email or open another thread. It is getting wayyyyyy of topic. Thx.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  13. cardio's Avatar
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    #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by Merlyn_3D View Post
    This reply is a good start, but I have a feeling I know what his reply will be. At this point, I'm getting to be pretty disappointed with palm. I might go get one of those new slim phones or whatnot and wait for the new Apple iPhone to hit the market. This is definitely my last palm phone though. Too bad.

    I lost $650 on the preprod model that Sprint cleared as legit (i.e. not stolen) and 2 days later palm shows up at my door (I don't even know how they could have gotten that address) and wants it back. I cooperate and give it to them and try to be as helpful as I can in their investigation, and I hear nothing....NOTHING from them ever again. When the 700p actually comes out, I have to pay full retail for it...AGAIN. This is the final nail in the coffin for me; it shows just how much palm doesn't care for it's customers (including ones that try to help them, like myself).

    I'm sick and tired of it, after I sell off my 700p I hope I never have to deal with palm again. No more round about answers dodging blame, no more half-hacked OS. I really hope Apple's iPhone dominates the market, from what I've been hearing, we have a lot to look forward to with that device.
    Agree with your sentiment. I now use the Blackjack.
    "If It Weren't For The United States Military"
    "There Would Be NO United States of America"
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by bcaslis View Post
    Co-operative multi-tasking does not qualify. One app can hog the system and prevent other apps from doing anything. If you are a developer it's pretty lame to be stating this. You make it sound like a quick kernel fix can solve all the Palm OS issues. That's completely false and misleading. It must be nice to make bold claims but not have to defend them because you seem to think you are above everyone else.

    The only claim I was making was this:

    Quote Originally Posted by treotraveler
    Since the Palm OS is not a multitasking platform, the Ptunes skippage is a non issue to me.
    I interpreted this to mean, PalmOS does not multitask, period. Apparently, what I realize now, is that treotraveler might have been referring to the "run multiple apps" feature of WM. My response was this:

    The PalmOS DOES multitask, to an extent. Not the extent that you want. pTunes is an example of this multitasking. I then explained that the reson for not being able to run more then one app (I guess the multitasking treotraveler was referring to) was not "included" (for lack of a better word) was probably because that would make things too complex for the user, and the PalmOS is supposed to be a simple device, hence the Zen of Palm. It is also possible that the kernel does not/did not support this, you'll have to ask KADAK (OS <= 4) or Palm (OS >= 5).

    If what I originally said about the above was my bold statement then I apologizing for sounding to sure of myself. This is the impression that I got from ACCESS/PalmSource when talking to them at LinuxWorld.

    Treotraveler's response:

    What does the original Palm kernel being developed as, have to do with the way the Palm OS operates right now?
    My response was that the kernel is the core (which, apparently is what I mean by "everything").

    Never once did I make any bold claims (unless you consider my claim that the kernel is the core of the OS, then I don't see how that is bold), try to differentiate forms of multitasking or say that I was above anybody else.

    Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough.

    Now, if I were to try to explain how pTunes multitasks and skips than I would have mentioned something like what you mentioned. I would have said:

    From what I gather, experience and observe, the PalmOS is a co-operative multitasking system. This means that cpu time is split up (and as you say, the app must ask the system for time). So, pTunes can be running and another event (say rendering a webpage) can be going. If the one event messes up (I am using this to mean a million things), then pTunes might skip.

    I guess maybe what isn't clear is how people see multitasking. To me, co-operative, pre-emptive or any form of time-slicing can be any valid form multitasking (well, maybe not time-slicing at the application level). You may only see pre-emptive as a valid form of multi-tasking. That's fine, and the only issue is a difference of opinions.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C
    As for the technical debate going on, I please request you guys to either drop it, take it to email or open another thread. It is getting wayyyyyy of topic. Thx.
    Sorry. Was only trying to state that the PalmOS supports some form(s) of multitasking. Only meant it to be *a* comment. Maybe you could ask the mods to break the technical stuff off into another thread? I'll try to stay on-topic in the future.
    Last edited by dkirker; 12/15/2006 at 05:38 PM.
  15.    #115  
    What *exactly* is it that you want that Palm hasn't already provided to the best of their abilities? I'm honestly asking here.

    As I see it, we wanted three things:
    1) More open communication
    2) Acknowledgement of bugs
    3) Fixes for bugs

    It seems that we got 1 and 2 and some of 3 has been promised. The only rub is the lag, and it seems to me that Palm is going to do their best to mediate it but can't guarantee that they'll fix it. If they even *hint* that they're going to and it turns out that it's not a complete and perfect fix, well then they're in quite a pickle, aren't they? But after all this they are sure to be doing whatever the can to improve the lag, how could they not?

    I'm probably going to get slammed as an apologist or a fanboy or a proxy or whatever, and that's fine (if aggravating) - but I'm not really sure what continued complaining / agitating is going to accomplish. In point of fact, it may be *unhelpful*. When Palm comes out and honestly talks about their products and it only makes people get more aggravated, where's the incentive for Palm to ever do it again?

    I'll ask again, and I don't mean to be especially confrontational here because i genuinely don't know the answer: What could Palm possibly do at this point that would placate the angriest among you?
  16. #116  
    Septimus, I think the main issue is Palm seems to say that some of the problems noted cannot be their fault and that power users do too much. For me, this is an excuse for Palm to say, "there are bugs, yes, we'll acknowledge them, but it isn't in our interest to fix the ones that we see as too difficult."

    I think a letter along the lines that said, yes, we will acknowledge the problems you state (even if we don't think that everybody encounters them) and we will try our very best to include fixes in updates. We will also try to communicate the bugs that we have acknowledged.

    I am glad Palm responded, but I wish their response would have been a bit more open to the "customer is always right" theory as opposed to the "lazy developer/business" theory/model/whatever-you-want-to-call-it.
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus View Post
    What *exactly* is it that you want that Palm hasn't already provided to the best of their abilities? I'm honestly asking here.

    As I see it, we wanted three things:
    1) More open communication
    2) Acknowledgement of bugs
    3) Fixes for bugs

    It seems that we got 1 and 2 and some of 3 has been promised. The only rub is the lag, and it seems to me that Palm is going to do their best to mediate it but can't guarantee that they'll fix it. If they even *hint* that they're going to and it turns out that it's not a complete and perfect fix, well then they're in quite a pickle, aren't they? But after all this they are sure to be doing whatever the can to improve the lag, how could they not?

    I'm probably going to get slammed as an apologist or a fanboy or a proxy or whatever, and that's fine (if aggravating) - but I'm not really sure what continued complaining / agitating is going to accomplish. In point of fact, it may be *unhelpful*. When Palm comes out and honestly talks about their products and it only makes people get more aggravated, where's the incentive for Palm to ever do it again?

    I'll ask again, and I don't mean to be especially confrontational here because i genuinely don't know the answer: What could Palm possibly do at this point that would placate the angriest among you?
    Spot on septimus

    The Palm response is exactly what I expected, on legal sense and info they are willing to part with.

    So what exactly is it that will satisfy bob and the few disgruntled users of the 700p? Beyond the original intent of bob's letter.

    So please tell me, septimus and the many satisfied 700p users out there that want to know, what will satisfy the so very few disatisfied.

  18.    #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by dkirker View Post
    I think a letter along the lines that said, yes, we will acknowledge the problems you state (even if we don't think that everybody encounters them) and we will try our very best to include fixes in updates. We will also try to communicate the bugs that we have acknowledged.

    That's how I would characterize the letter...
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus View Post
    That's how I would characterize the letter...
    Hmmm...

    Seemed to me that Palm was saying in the letter that they would only really deal with issues that either a) They saw as important, or b) That everybody was experiencing (ok, maybe not everybody, but most).

    Maybe I just read the letter too long ago to really remember the content.

    I guess I felt that something was missing in the letter that would make it truly genuine. I'd love to believe that Palm is as great of a company as I'd like it to be or that it used to be, but it seems that a lot of Palm's response don't give me warm fuzzies like they should.
  20. #120  
    Like I said I applaud Palm for coming out and acknowledging the issues, that's awesome on their part, and I give them props. I'm not taking anything away from them on that front, I guess my gripe is the last part of the letter. The letter stemmed from enough people asking for it, but to say in the last part:

    "I don’t want to sound like I’m dismissing the frustration this is causing for some power users, but it has not been reported by a significant portion of our customer base."

    Once you say something like "I don't want to sound like I'm dismissing" and then say not enough people are reporting it as an issue, will stir people up.

    Again, Palm should be applauded for speaking about it.

    I am speaking for myself, I would have felt better not hearing the last part. Sometimes being too honest can hurt you. I love my 700p, and have kept it since I got it Memorial Day Weekend. I just think it wasn't the best thing to say when addressing issues people are having with a device. I don't want to turn this into a Palm bashing. It's reading into the letter that sparked all this.
    Last edited by JimmieGeddes; 12/15/2006 at 01:45 PM.
    Jimmie Geddes

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