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  1. #81  
    Where does this leave someone like me....

    I'm a Apple OSX user considering entering the smartphone market for the first time thanks to Sprints affordable SERO plan option. I'm all ready to join the modern world, and be a Palm customer, but as I understand it, my only choice in a Treo is limited to this 700p model with known bugs.

    See, I'm that user they're afraid of scaring off by admitting these issues exist... but frankly, I'm more frightened that the company was reluctant to not only admit these issues, but to fix them promptly. I'd like to anticipate a good experience, knowing the phone will function in par with what's standard for a phone these days. I don't care if it's got a rocketship built into it, the most important feature for me is the phone itself - and from reading various forums it sounds like there are some huge issues with this model which are unacceptable, namely the phone rebooting stuff, and the bluetooth.

    If Palm is truly worried about scaring off potential customers with issues which may or may not effect us (hey, why should I play the lottery? Make it function up to spec!) then they need to address the bugs immediately. Their priortity needs to be the quality control on the merchandise they're selling today, not what they might sell tomorrow.
  2. #82  
    Take this with a grain of salt as this is just my opinion...

    1. While I agree and have experienced problems with lag at times and gave up on p-tunes and bluetooth, the fact that Palm sent us a letter is a nice sentiment. But that honestly is all it is.

    2. Palm's position and actions are also not surprising. Even if we have 500 people in the poll, how many 700p's do you think they sell? or have sold? Our 500 person poll is not an attention-getter. Show me a 20-25 percent return rate and that'll leave a mark - on both Palm and your favorite carrier. THAT my friends would spark some motivation. Wanna get their attention? Let's all start trying to return our 700s...don't want to? Me neither, which is why we have no bargaining power and this poll makes us feel good - but that's about it.
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  3. #83  
    Well...

    Judging from the responses to the Palm response, not everyone is happy that Palm did not promise a perfect devise by years end.

    Maybe my expectations are lower, maybe I was born under a lucky star or maybe my 700p likes me. Whatever the reason, the 700p I have in my hand right now functions as well or better than my 650.

    Using the Palm multiple dexterity function, (700p in one hand and the 650 in the other hand) doing a side by side comparison, the 700p has no lag when opening or closing apps. Both phones function the same.

    Ptunes skippage does happen on the 700p, and not on the 650. I always felt that it is a Ptunes and FAT 32 issue. Since the Palm OS is not a multitasking platform, the Ptunes skippage is a non issue to me. I don't play Ptunes while I am with a client. When I use Ptunes, it's while I drive or walk the dog. I don't conduct business while doing personal tasks.

    I don't have the bluetooth issue some have. I tried 3 different headsets with the 700p and settled on the Moto H700. It was time to upgrade headsets anyway.

    I have no issues with the phone making or receiving calls. No call dropping or resets encountered. The phone on the 700p actually connects the call faster than the 650.

    I have no blazer issues unless the DB Cache gets low. But the 650 acts the same when it's DB Cache gets low. So I manage the DB Cache. When I have Resco Backup do a backup at 3.00 AM, I have it flush the database when I sleep.

    I have not had any texting issues with Sprint.

    I have not had any SD Card mounting problems.

    The 700p has FAT 32, the 650 does not. The 700p has a larger devise memory than the 650. The 700p has EV DO, the 650 does not.

    I remember all the negative stuff said about the 650. Now many claim the 650 is way better than the 700p. But that was after all the firmware updates.

    Maybe some of you should do some personal reflection as to what you want in a perfect devise. Unfortunately, you will never find "THE" perfect devise.
    The Treo does it all in a small package.

  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by treotraveler View Post
    Using the Palm multiple dexterity function, (700p in one hand and the 650 in the other hand) doing a side by side comparison, the 700p has no lag when opening or closing apps. Both phones function the same.
    No, they don't. Dial *2 from each one and then hang up. You'll see a difference. Trust me.

    Ptunes skippage does happen on the 700p, and not on the 650. I always felt that it is a Ptunes and FAT 32 issue.
    You're wrong. Just look at how many people run FAT32 on their 650s and never any skipping problems. Trust me, I had one with FAT32.
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by edoan View Post
    You, sir, probably are not an engineer or work for a high-tech company. I work at one of the largest technology providers in the world, and the problems that Palm is having are pervasive throughout the technology industry. Time to market is number one, and that's a fact of life. The only technology companies that work all the kinks out of a product before shipping are involved in government, military, or healthcare applications. Otherwise, for non-life or death usage scenarios, "good enough" is often the shipping criteria.

    Outside of Palm, look at Sony Playstation 3, Toyota Prius or BMW 745Li iDrive, or the IRS's automatic fraud detection system. All of those have flaws (fatal flaws, some might say). So ease up, pop open a beer, and remember, it's just a phone.
    Yeah! A $600 phone that my Sr Execs expect to work every single time without lag, WSOD, or bluetooth problems. I carry a 700p, bought it the first week to test. I have been reluctant to push them out due to the problems. Now Palm is squeezing me between the 700p and a refurb 650 (if I can find a vendor I trust). I have a lot of hardware and service contracts and licensing (GMM) tied up in these devices. They need to just work. Especially in front of my clients.

    If not, then maybe its time to move from testing the E61 sitting at my elbow to deploying it and retraining all of my users and support staff on Symbian. (Already tried MS5 and I can't get my head around that OS! Everything takes 3-5 extra steps, that is, if I can find out how to do it!)

    Just my .02...
    Treo 700P (& GoodLink Administrator)
    Simpsonized
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by nightlight View Post
    No, they don't. Dial *2 from each one and then hang up. You'll see a difference. Trust me.



    You're wrong. Just look at how many people run FAT32 on their 650s and never any skipping problems. Trust me, I had one with FAT32.
    What....

    Do you have the abilty see my phones from another demension by rubbing your crystal balls.

    If you look at my post AGAIN, you will no doubt notice that I was talking about the LAG ISSUE.

    I'll bet you never considered the *2 issue a Sprint problem. Since it only happens on *2 and no other number. But then again, I don't dial *2 on a daily basis.

    Do you have some undeniable proof that my opinion is "wrong" about the Ptunes skippage.

    As far as trusting you, if you are the former 2000 Man, you can forget that. You see, I was a visitor to these forums long before I finally joined. Your opinion is just that, an opinion and nothing else.

    I'm not looking for a flame war right now, I just don't want to get banned for at least a year.

    Oh, and have a nice day!

  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by edoan View Post
    That's for the PRL (Preferred Roaming List), not an actual phone firmware update. To get a real firmware update, you have to go into the store. There's no way Sprint would possibly let phones get bricked by updating over the air - imagine if there was a dropped packet while you were reflashing the firmware!
    No, not for the PRL, I mean for the actual firmware itself. ALL high-end SPRINT PHONES now support FOTA (Firmware Over The Air) and several updates have been released for most of the samsung phones.
  8. dcpmark's Avatar
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    #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by treotraveler View Post
    As far as trusting you, if you are the former 2000 Man, you can forget that.
    No ifs about it.....but if you look at his posts under this alter ego, he's actually been been fairly civil lately, compared to his 2000 Man days. I can only find one post where he calls everyone liars who say their 700p doesn't have any lags:

    http://discuss.treocentral.com/showt...88#post1127788

    Maybe he's learned his lesson after being banned.....twice.
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by treotraveler View Post
    Since the Palm OS is not a multitasking platform, the Ptunes skippage is a non issue to me.
    I may be misinterpreting what you mean here.

    ACCESS/PalmSource wants there developers to believe that the PalmOS is not multitasking capable because of their license with KADAK, the people who created the kernel (the core of the PalmOS).

    The PalmOS is indeed capable of multitasking in many forms. It was just originally developed as "single tasking" OS (or, given the appearance as a single tasking OS) to keep it simple for the users.
  10. #90  
    Hey dcpmark

    Yup, that's what I thought. The personality and traits of 2000 Man appeared to match nightlight.

    It wasn't hard putting the two egos together.

    Thanks

  11. #91  
    So when Palm releases the update, we have to ask our carriers to update it under warranty?
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by dkirker View Post
    I may be misinterpreting what you mean here.

    ACCESS/PalmSource wants there developers to believe that the PalmOS is not multitasking capable because of their license with KADAK, the people who created the kernel (the core of the PalmOS).

    The PalmOS is indeed capable of multitasking in many forms. It was just originally developed as "single tasking" OS (or, given the appearance as a single tasking OS) to keep it simple for the users.
    What does the original Palm kernel being developed as, have to do with the way the Palm OS operates right now? Nothing.

    Hence, no multitasking when compared to Windows devises.

    Does that bother me? Nope, not at all. I learned to accept it in the devise I chose to use. If I wanted something else, I would have chosen another devise.

  13. Rob_T's Avatar
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    #93  
    I'm glad Plam is trying to get an update together however I'm not happy with how long its taking or that one is even needed.

    With the device coming out in May 2006 a firmware update in March 2007 is just too long.

    The bigger issue however is that one is even needed. Why Palm couldn't take the 650, add a better camera, EVDO, and a little RAM without screwing it up is ridiculous.

    There is no reason that there should be the lags and messed up buttons on the 700P.
    Late '08 MacBook Pro, 2.53 GHz, 8 GB RAM, 500 GB HD 7200; Mid 2011 MacBook Air 11" 1.6GHz, 4 GB RAM, 128 GB SSD; 32GB iPhone 4; 32GB WiFi iPad 2 (White); Apple TV; Nikon D300; AND (Hopefully) a 16GB HP Touchpad from the fire sale! TWITTER: @RobT43
  14. #94  
    I would have to agree that much of the response is a cop-out. Palm blames everyone but themselves. It's the BlueTooth standard, or the carriers, or the hardware shared with the WX (who made that decision, if not Palm?). The delay in getting a firmware upgrade is unacceptable, as is the fact they essentially acknowledge they're not going to fix one of the major problems.

    Bad JuJu, Palm. If you can't do significantly better on your next treo, I'll have to seriously consider alternatives. And I suspect I won't be alone.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  15. #95  
    treotraveler, good job not answering any questions. How about backing up your FAT32 theory? Didn't think so.
  16. #96  
    I have been having mixed emotions ever since I read Steve Sinclair's reply. At first I was happy that Palm acknowledged the problems and were planning to release a fix for some of it. I felt vindicated being that many critics did not think we could even get a big corporation like Palm to reply to us little people. So part of me just wanted to be thankful, take my small victory and let it go at that.

    Palm's response on the lag issue still bothered me though. I've now had a day to think about it and the more I do, the more unsatisfied I become. I now realize that my mixed emotions are due to just feeling happy because Palm finally acknowledged us versus of what they actually said.

    It's as if that popular cheerleader at school finally talked to you in public even though you've been doing her homework for the last four years. It makes you want to blindly believe whatever excuse she makes up as to why she can't go out with you this weekend. It's only reasonable that she'll be washing her hair all Saturday night, right?

    In this case we've been paying several hundred dollars to Palm every year or so for the latest lusted after device. Then when they finally talk to us they say something to the extent of, "We acknowledge that lag thing and like, it's a real a bummer but like, we're not going to bother fixing it because like, we don't think it will hurt our overall popularity because like, not enough people are reporting it and like, we really don't have the time anyhow because like, we have to do our hair Saturday night anyhow."

    Even if we still like our 700p, it is still wrong for them to say that they acknowledge something is broke but aren't going to fix it until the next product comes along that we'll be free to purchase.

    Limited resources is not a valid excuse. That's like me saying that I bought my 700p but refuse to finish paying it off because my resources are stretched supporting four kids in school, a mortgage and two car payments. It's up to me not to be in the position where I overstretch myself. Bottomline is that if a corporation has the resources to put a product out and profit from it then they have to make certain they have the resources to fix problems with it.

    The argument that Palm doesn't like to disclose problems because it might scare new customers away is also short sighted. I once read that elected officials count every letter they receive as ten votes. The theory being that for each one person who writes, there are at least nine other people who feel the same way but just don't spend the time to voice it. I don't know how many votes 400 persons quantifies to on a website with users who are consultants and IT managers but Palm should think hard about it. I think they should be more scared of their current customers becoming dissatisfied than anything else.

    Attached is the response letter I sent to Steve a few hours ago. I would like to know if there has been any miscommunication regarding the lag issue being addressed. I am expecting that he can reply back within the same twenty four period I did. I will be back tomorrow to discuss it more.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Bob-C; 12/14/2006 at 09:38 PM.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by treotraveler View Post
    What does the original Palm kernel being developed as, have to do with the way the Palm OS operates right now? Nothing.

    Hence, no multitasking when compared to Windows devises.
    Yeah, I think we aren't on the same level of understanding.

    The kernel is the core of the OS. What ever it can do, the OS can do. It (the kernel) can multitask, the PalmOS can multitask. (this allows you to play pTunes in the background).

    As you (and I) have stated, the PalmOS cannot allow more than one app to be running (in certain senses) at once. This is because the OS was originally designed to be simple. This is a good thing, and a bad thing.

    Anyway, I just wanted to clear up the common misconception that the PalmOS cannot multitask. Many people dismiss the PalmOS as a poor, "old" OS because of this misconception.
  18. #98  
    No offense but are you a software developer? Because honestly you don't know what you are talking about. Because the kernel there are issues like making library routines re-entrant for multitasking. Here's an explanation I wrote in the future treo forum about no UMTS on Palm OS due to lack of multitasking:

    Here's a post I made in the future treo forum before that explains it:

    "For this pre-emptive multi-tasking is needed. That is where one process can get time from the kernal no matter how messed up another app is. Palm OS only goes co-operative multi-tasking. This is where one app asks for time, but if another app is hosed, it's request will never be seen.

    UMTS provides and requires simultaneous voice and data. There is no way this can be provided without a true pre-emptive multi-tasking kernel. I hate Microsoft and don't particularly like WM5. But some people need to get over this, the current Palm OS will NEVER be able to do this. The underwilling kernel and application execution architecture needs to be redone to enable this. I'd love for this to happen but I don't see it. Access is focused on ALP and Palm is rumored to be working on a linux solution. But it won't be the Palm OS.

    For anyone that still thinks there's a chance, go out and get a 700p (I have one). EVDO doesn't require simultaneous voice and data but provides high-speed data. In low signal areas, it's not uncommon for sudden lags to appear in various apps. I'm convinced that what is happening is the app/OS is pausing while the radio is trying to deal with the lower signal. There is no way this is going to work for simultaneous voice and data.

    Sorry to sound harsh, but like Scotty in Star Trek says "Captain, I can't change the laws of physics!". "

    Quote Originally Posted by dkirker View Post
    Yeah, I think we aren't on the same level of understanding.

    The kernel is the core of the OS. What ever it can do, the OS can do. It (the kernel) can multitask, the PalmOS can multitask. (this allows you to play pTunes in the background).

    As you (and I) have stated, the PalmOS cannot allow more than one app to be running (in certain senses) at once. This is because the OS was originally designed to be simple. This is a good thing, and a bad thing.

    Anyway, I just wanted to clear up the common misconception that the PalmOS cannot multitask. Many people dismiss the PalmOS as a poor, "old" OS because of this misconception.
    Main Phone: Treo 270/600/650/700w/700p/750v/Motorola Q/iPhone
    Tried but sold: Motorola Q/Nokia E61/700wx/HTC TyTN/Treo 680
  19. #99  
    I vote that everyone should keep referring to them as Plam in every post from now on (been misspelled a few times inadvertently in this thread) until an update is available.

    Imagine how annoying it would be to be a Plam employee and see your company name Plam misspelled all over the place...they'd want to get that ROM update out ASAP!
    Palm III > HS Visor > Treo 600 > Treo 650 > Treo 750 > Treo Pro > PrePlus GSM

    "95% of all software issues are due to USER ERROR."
  20. #100  
    Imagine getting paid for doing next to nothing. If I worked for Plam, I'd get to slack off, not pay attention to detail, forgo any and all testing, be unencumbered by things like quality control, and I wouldn't have any pressure on me to fix things when I screwed up.

    We could easily be looking at 12 months between the 700p's launch and the firmware update. Wasn't there only about 18 months between the launch of the 650 and the launch of the 700p? Hmm.

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