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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by g-funkster View Post
    Other audio programs stutter as well. Ptunes is not to blame here. Another reason I say this is because I used a very cpu intensive game on the 700P: bike or die. The game played flawlessly but skipped at a regularly repeating interval a la ptunes.
    PTunes is to blame. TCPMP plays stutter free on my 700p, PTunes skips. If you want a Treo 700p to play music don't use PTunes, use TCPMP it's skip free. I seriously regret buying PTunes Deluxe.
    Jimmie Geddes
  2. #62  
    I agree with those who are pleased not with the response, but that there was a response. While I also agree that the response clearly was not as reassuring as I would have liked in terms of addressing issues that have been a concern of Treo users and which were clearly expressed in Bob-C's letter, the response does acknowledge an admission that there are issues that need to be resolved. It will be interesting to see whether in fact there are fixes coming down the line. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak. From the input of the members of this forum, if in fact Palm does follow the comments in the various threads, Palm should be on notice that they are losing loyal users by failing to produce a stable product. The motivating factor is probably the fear of loss of sales.
    Legalbeagle
  3. edoan's Avatar
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    #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by aayz View Post
    They do not have a right to sell the next product before the previous one is working flawlessly.
    You, sir, probably are not an engineer or work for a high-tech company. I work at one of the largest technology providers in the world, and the problems that Palm is having are pervasive throughout the technology industry. Time to market is number one, and that's a fact of life. The only technology companies that work all the kinks out of a product before shipping are involved in government, military, or healthcare applications. Otherwise, for non-life or death usage scenarios, "good enough" is often the shipping criteria.

    Outside of Palm, look at Sony Playstation 3, Toyota Prius or BMW 745Li iDrive, or the IRS's automatic fraud detection system. All of those have flaws (fatal flaws, some might say). So ease up, pop open a beer, and remember, it's just a phone.
  4. #64  
    There seems to be a good number of people ready to hold hands with P@!m and sing "Kumbaya." "Let's let bygones be bygones." "They actually responded to us. They know we exist. They love us; they really love us." How quickly we forget. How long did loyalists wait for the 700p? Wasn't it billed as the next great upgrade? Seems more like a downgrade to me.

    Despite the polite, disarming "aw shucks" tone of "the letter," I see something a lot more ominous for consumers, a continuation of business as usual, which involves P@!m blaming customers for wanting what it has promised. Here, then, is my somewhat cynical summary of the letter with some extrapolation, hyperbola, and some comment.

    1. P@!m: "It's just you "power users" griping about needing even more power. Stop frightening the newbies! They don't need to know that many of the features on their device don't work according to spec. All they need to do is spend their hard-earned cash and use their smartphone as a dumbphone."

    My response: Since when did "power user" become a four-letter word? And since when does attempting to utilize all the advertized features of a device (that you paid hundreds for!!) make you an elite power user? This smells like populist rhetoric, and it is!

    2. P@!m: "Even though you are 'power users' you are not smart enough to understand the intricacies of technology and business decision processes. So we will continue to keep you in the dark for as long as we want."

    My response: Come on! Of course, the average person who casually peruses these forums knows that devices and software configurations are unique, and that an issue affecting one device, does not necessarily affect all. But when there are groundswells like this one that prompt so many users to respond, these are not isolated anecdotes, these are data that must be taken seriously. This community should not allow itself to be trifled with. We do not need to be patronized. P@!m, if you want to keep customers, just be forthright and acknowledge that there is an issue before we have to pry a confession out of you. Don't pat us on the head and tell us "Let daddy take care of it," because in many (most? all?) cases you won't until we force you.

    3. P@!m: "At OUR leisure and pleasure we MAY make some tweaks to the 700p.

    But (even though you paid good money) don't expect:
    a. full bluetooth compatibility and stability
    b. stutter-free music

    Do expect:
    a. a machine that is slower and buggier than its 2+ year old predecessor
    b. more of the same abuse and condescension."

    In short: Shut up, b****! Take it up the a**! Because I'm the best P@!m you ever had.

    (I think that last comment may have crossed the line into very bad taste, but you get my meaning. Of course you know b****=brats and a**=air.)
  5. #65  
    I think the letter has been homogenized by legal department. However, it still answers some vital questions, and proves Bob C's campaign a success.

    First, it answered the question of whether there will be an update: yes.

    Second, when? Shooting for 1st Q 2007.

    That's 2 huge questions answered, and should be a relief to many.

    Did Palm guarantee that the issues would be fixed? No, of course not, and no one should expect that. Instead, Palm indicated it would try to fix the issues. If that's the truth, and a valid attempt is made, then I'm ok with it.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by coredump View Post
    I am a sysadmin for a local government and almost a computer science graduate. I hate to sound like blackmail-ish but I cannot recommend Palm products after this.
    So what would you recomend for people that need a good smartphone with solid third party application support?
  7. #67  
    Like many others here, I'm not impressed with the response. I have the same problems with overall sluggishness and the stuttering while playing music. What I really hoped for was a definitive answer on whether the issues could be fixed with ROM updates or whether they were hardware issues that will never be resolved. The no-response leaves me right back where I started from. The only useful information provided was that a ROM update should be coming soon. Hopefully, Palm can at least deliver on that.
  8. waldo15's Avatar
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    #68  
    Bob-C, you da'man for getting this snowball started !

    Dieter, you da'2nd man for posting the open letter in the front page !

    Steve Sinclair, your PRPRPR $approved$ $answer$ gives us hope!

    On to a critical analysis of the response letter:

    Bluetooth.

    I am glad they acknowledge the BT snafus and, moreover, that the ROM update will be focused on solving this particular issue.

    BTW It is by far known by "power users" that Bluetooth in ANY phone these days is not 100% "pure" bluetooth, but rather a crippled, dumbed down version to appease carriers and not let users do whatever they want to do. But I digress.

    Stutter.

    This is something worth looking at under the microscope. It is true that using other multimedia apps (Kinoma 4EX, TCPMP) there is no stuttering of any kind, and if there's any I have not noticed it or is rather insignificant. Somehow the embedded PocketTunes does not play nice with the FrankenGarnet OS. Heck, in my 600 it was a very solid piece of software and that kept me from buying an iPod Playing music with PTunes in the 700p is rather a painfull affair given all those skips and stutterings. From the letter, at least they acknowledge the problem but also they tell us "shove it guys, no big solution in the short term...". Maybe not with those words but that's the jist... Then again, the solution exists today and that is stop using Ptunes...

    Lags

    I did not have a 650, I went straight from 600 to 700p. I SEE noticeable lag given that the 600 had 0 lag. Perhaps I am not doing a fair comparison here since the 700p and 650 shared many things in commong but heck, I may be a medium-power user that went from 0 headaches to 1 every day with the 700p.

    Anyhow, when I am in a low coverage area, my phone lags and LAAAAAAGs a lot. When switching apps, or launching Blazer, screen goes white for 1-2 seconds... if I was not tech savvy, I'd perceive that as my phone not working properly. And to this problem, we officialy got the shaft. Seriously, if the stuttering "solution" will be paltry in the ROM update, the lag solution will be non-existent. Straight from Steve's:

    I don’t want to sound like I’m dismissing the frustration this is causing for some power users, but it has not been reported by a significant portion of our customer base . We believe we still deliver the best mobile experience and while this particular device is perceived to be slower than previous models, it is still faster than other smartphones on the market
    So by this statement yes, our 700p is slower than the 2 previous Treo generations (!!), but heck it still beats the new phones... unfortunately not the new kids on the block (any HTC-made phone) and by golly they run Windows Mobile on comparable clock speeds! In the past, Palm OS would PWN the competition... I guess the golden years are gone now...

    Anyhow, thanks for posting the letter and letting us know that Palm knows. Thanks for giving us hope in the Bluetooth arena, and somehow thanks for crushing our dreams of solving the other problems.

    It is a happy day and a sad day for me, now I can see myself in the future steering away from the Treo and perhaps, embracing HTC with my fanboyism... but oh Palm if I knew how to quit you !

    Disclaimer: that last sentence was a joke, please Palm don't leave me, I can change
    Last edited by waldo15; 12/14/2006 at 04:10 PM.
  9. aayz's Avatar
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    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by edoan View Post
    You, sir, probably are not an engineer or work for a high-tech company. I work at one of the largest technology providers in the world, and the problems that Palm is having are pervasive throughout the technology industry. Time to market is number one, and that's a fact of life. The only technology companies that work all the kinks out of a product before shipping are involved in government, military, or healthcare applications. Otherwise, for non-life or death usage scenarios, "good enough" is often the shipping criteria.

    Outside of Palm, look at Sony Playstation 3, Toyota Prius or BMW 745Li iDrive, or the IRS's automatic fraud detection system. All of those have flaws (fatal flaws, some might say). So ease up, pop open a beer, and remember, it's just a phone.

    Yes, I am an engineer and I understand that there is nothing pefect in the real world. But I also understand that if some well known and trusted company promises something it should deliver what promised.
    The thruth is, Palm insted of better testing their new product, put more effort and (our) money into their marketing, and let the customers deal with it.
    I am not a member of a Palm loyalist club and am not an investor.
    I am not asking for more than I paid for.
    I know that I swiched my cell phone service from one reliable provider to Sprint just because of Treo 700p and now under 3 years conract over this piece of junk.
    By the way "just a phone", does work better and cost close to nothing...
    Last edited by aayz; 12/14/2006 at 02:21 PM.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandorr View Post
    So what would you recomend for people that need a good smartphone with solid third party application support?
    Either a 650 or go WM. I'm also very pleased with my 680 -- no huge lag probs like the 700p -- but it does suffer from battery life woes for "power users" (or should that be PUSR in keeping with Palm's treatment as a four-letter word? ). Palm, sadly, has left us little other choice. My feeling is that they backed themselves into a corner on this matter over time due to delays in Cobalt and ALP (even if these weren't completely in their control during times when the source was outsourced).
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jbcellular View Post
    Wow - I think the letter was good. It at least gives us some insight on the Palm side of this situation.

    Bob C (and all TreoCentral users) Great work and Thanks! I look forward to the update!
    Palm, as I see from the letter did not give us much hope on the lag issues! I cannot believe it that the majority of users haven't noticed a problem. (from what he states in his letter)

    I may have to jump ship to the Treo 700WX unless they are going to give us the Linux Treo by Sep of 2007. I am glad that palm responded. but nine months to correct defects is unacceptable. I guess we are the beta testers and we get charged premium for the new devices. The Treo 700p would be an excellant phone if they would correct the lag issues. My bluetooth works fine on my Camry 2007
    I guess another 3 month wait!
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by JimmieGeddes View Post
    PTunes is to blame. TCPMP plays stutter free on my 700p, PTunes skips. If you want a Treo 700p to play music don't use PTunes, use TCPMP it's skip free. I seriously regret buying PTunes Deluxe.
    Sounds more like customer dissatisfaction to me. Remember that pocket tunes worked just fine on the Treo 600 and that had a paltry 144mhz processor in it. Streaming worked just fine too.
  13. fushigi's Avatar
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    #73  
    Regarding BlueTooth, my major gripe is that it is worse than it was on the 650. One would expect a next generation, or at least an evolutionary, device be at least the same if not better than what it was replacing. But BT on the 700p is far worse than the 650. For me it is not even remotely usable - the headset won't stay connected - and I've given up even trying. I will give it another go if/when a BT patch is released but my hopes are not high that it will return to 650 levels, let alone work better.

    The lag for me is generally tolerable but there are times when the 1-3 second lag stretches to 15+ seconds. During those times I'm embarassed that I paid for such a thing. Palm, your customers should never be embarassed by your products.

    I went from Palm IIIx to Treo 300 to Treo 600 to the 650 and now the 700p. I really like PalmOS and the available applications. I do not want to switch to WM or get a BlackBerry (which I'm constantly under pressure from my employer to do). However, until the 700p is fixed I cannot justify buying another device from Palm.

    Which brings up something I'm curious about. Some of you are saying you're so fed up with your 700p you'll go buy a WM Treo. Why? Why would you reward Palm's delivery of a buggy device by buying another device from them? If I vote with my feet I'm taking it to another vendor altogether.
    - Fushigi
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by treo...not! View Post
    Since when did "power user" become a four-letter word? And since when does attempting to utilize all the advertized features of a device (that you paid hundreds for!!) make you an elite power user? This smells like populist rhetoric, and it is!
    I quite agree. I get irritated when a company like this benefits from the "power user" as another sales tool -- and we all know that people come asking about what device would be best for them -- and then in the same moment come at us with "Oh... there, there... you're just a whiny power user pushing the device farther than it should go... the normal user would never see that issue."

    The simple truth is that without people pushing the devices no one would have clear idea of what they were actually capable of. And, by extension, how could one recommend a device for a particular purpose without knowing what it could (or couldn't!) do.

    In my case, I first get a sense of whether the person I'm talking to would best be served by PalmOS or WM (yeah yeah, I know). In the case of Palm, I actively warn people away from the 700P... just too many issues. And, at present, I would wholeheartedly recommend the 680 *EXCEPT* in the case where they will be pushing power requirements... the battery or power management (or both) is just not up to the task, and it's not clear if there will be a solution and/or what (or, more importantly, WHEN) that might be. Otherwise, it's back to the 650 -- but, oh wait, they don't sell that any more.

    In the case of WM, I recommend only 700WX or 750. 700W is, like the P, just too problematic.

    I was encouraged by the letter only in the sense that it acknowledged that they are aware of the community and look to it (if only as lurkers) for feedback on it's products and processes. What discourages me about the letter is the patronizing tone it seems to project. Considering (a) that we are customers and (b) that we are advocates for the products, I think there should be more respect there -- and, honestly, I think that works both ways.

    The problem as I see it is that we, as customers, aren't feeling the love. That could come in the form of more frequent releases, yes. It could also come in the form of more open communication with "power users" (or at least developers). I know, from talking with different individuals, that these kind of relationships DO exists on a very limited basis (individuals, at least as far as I know)... but I think we'd all feel better having a sense of this kind of a relationship with the community. Maybe this just isn't possible... but it's the sense I get after having been here for a while and reading about (and feeling!) the frustrations.
  15. #75  
    I'm a 650 owner, but I have to wonder:
    (1) Do the 650 ROM editing tools also work on the 700p?

    (2) If so, is there a way to delete pTunes from the ROM and try running it from RAM? Or maybe there's some other way to hide the ROM image from PalmOS to be certain that your pTunes is 100% running from RAM?

    Clearly some applications with real-time-constraints (e.g., pTunes) should not be running directly out of ROM on the 700p.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by jae_63 View Post
    (2) If so, is there a way to delete pTunes from the ROM and try running it from RAM? Or maybe there's some other way to hide the ROM image from PalmOS to be certain that your pTunes is 100% running from RAM?

    Clearly some applications with real-time-constraints (e.g., pTunes) should not be running directly out of ROM on the 700p.
    When you install a new version of an app (such as the Deluxe pTunes) Palm OS will use the newer in-memory version, not the ROM one.

    And it still skips
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by jae_63 View Post
    I'm a 650 owner, but I have to wonder:
    (1) Do the 650 ROM editing tools also work on the 700p?

    (2) If so, is there a way to delete pTunes from the ROM and try running it from RAM? Or maybe there's some other way to hide the ROM image from PalmOS to be certain that your pTunes is 100% running from RAM?

    Clearly some applications with real-time-constraints (e.g., pTunes) should not be running directly out of ROM on the 700p.
    Please search.
  18. #78  
    So how exactly does the average user report a problem to Palm (such as lags)? Call support? A bunch of script reading people. How do you get them to open a bug report? I've never encountered a way unless it's a hardware problem as in the thing won't turn on.

    Maybe that's why a majority of people haven't reported it. There's no way to do it that I know of!
    Main Phone: Treo 270/600/650/700w/700p/750v/Motorola Q/iPhone
    Tried but sold: Motorola Q/Nokia E61/700wx/HTC TyTN/Treo 680
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by bcaslis View Post
    Maybe that's why a majority of people haven't reported it. There's no way to do it that I know of!
    Oh, you mean like:

    "Could you turn the volume down?"

    "What!? I can't hear you, the music is too loud!"



    I support a Customer Support organization and I can tell you there is an interesting art in trying to (a) weed out simple cases and (b) trying to isolate trends in issue reporting based on reported cases. But the good news is that Palm needn't rely upon reported cases alone... they have a great community forum here to draw upon -- and it seems they do indeed watch it. The big question is... do they really take value in it enough to weigh what they see here against the actual reported cases? That I have no idea about.

    So, for now... the best thing to do is squeak, squeal, and holler at support. If people are having a problem, make damn sure support is getting hammered about it. Trust me when i say that if support is getting deluged on an issue they will make quite certain that product management is getting an earful as well.
  20. #80  
    I am also frustrated the mostly with Lags. Who cares about bluetooth if you cant even operate the phone normally, yet from reading a letter I felt that Plam is concentrating more on bt.

    Roman
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