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  1.    #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by nightlight View Post
    I'm also surprised that the treocentral (Dieter Bohn) has bowed down in front of Palm. "I don't want to get all misty-eyed here, but I'd have to say that things have turned out rather well." Pathetic.
    You're entitled to that opinion and I'm not keen to get into a fight about it, but I don't think that I "bowed down." Given the restrictions placed on them by the carriers, I'm pleasantly surprised that they were able to be as candid as they were in the letter.

    anyway, as regards the 700p lag thing, from what I've been able to glean from minimal research it's because the 700p shares the same types of RAM chips as the 700w|wx - which necessitates that the PalmOS run XIP (Execute In Place) on the.. ROM(?) instead of being run completely within standard RAM. This is the technical stuff at the end of my article I was asking for help with.

    I'd like to think that running PalmOS XIP is a two-step forward, one-step back kind of thing.
  2. #42  
    Well, I don't see the point in complaining about Steve's letter, its more than a lot of companies would do. So, thanks for writing to the community. I am glad that Palm has people who read these boards to see what issues users are posting about.

    Having read the letter, I would like to say that I enjoy the product (its my first Treo), but I am:

    (1) having intermittent resets while using the phone (frequent, 3-5 times per week), and (2) I have a very large problem with music skipping during playback, and I don't believe I have other apps running in the background. (email, etc)

    For the company's information, the only third-party apps I have installed are TCPMP (plus codecs) and GoogleMaps. The resetting and skipping problems existed long before I installed these two apps. So, if you are listening and planning a firmware update, please fix these issues.
    Bruce Millar
  3. #43  
    At least Palm responded to a letter from people in the Palm community, you've gotta give them credit for that. TreoCentral was also the only site to get a response from Palm which says a lot. The 700p is a great device but has some bugs, and Palm is working on a solution.
    Jimmie Geddes
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus View Post
    You're entitled to that opinion and I'm not keen to get into a fight about it, but I don't think that I "bowed down." Given the restrictions placed on them by the carriers, I'm pleasantly surprised that they were able to be as candid as they were in the letter.

    anyway, as regards the 700p lag thing, from what I've been able to glean from minimal research it's because the 700p shares the same types of RAM chips as the 700w|wx - which necessitates that the PalmOS run XIP (Execute In Place) on the.. ROM(?) instead of being run completely within standard RAM. This is the technical stuff at the end of my article I was asking for help with.

    I'd like to think that running PalmOS XIP is a two-step forward, one-step back kind of thing.
    I'm not here to fight either, but the lag is caused (in large part) to the database access bug that was identified many months ago.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Septimus
    which necessitates that the PalmOS run XIP (Execute In Place) on the.. ROM(?)
    I don't think it necessitated Execute In Place at all. For one thing, Windows Mobile does NOT use XIP even though, as Palm said, they share the same memory architecture.

    My belief is that Palm chose to use XIP because it would free up dbcache and would make for a more stable device. I actually thought it was a great idea and they had good intentions for trying it.

    That said, I do believe some of the problems have XIP to blame. For instance, I could have been sitting in the Launcher not doing ANYTHING and my mp3 would skip. I think Palm is running something in the background continously that is inefficient and XIP is just not fast enough (it's FLASH after all) for it not to be noticeable.

    The only lag I had was with Blazer, and I don't see how XIP can be blamed for that when everything else, while not as snappy as the 650, runs at a reasonable speed. I think that is something a firmware upgrade could most easily address.
    My Freebie Java Widgets (Compatible with 650, 680, 700p & 755p)
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    - RottenTomatoMeter - Movie Ratings, Reviews, Showtimes for New Movies & DVDs
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  6. #46  
    I just read the letter again....does anyone else notice that he says that there essentially might be NOTHING they can do to completely alleviate the audio (mp3) playback problem? That's essentially what he says. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole point of including PTunes and saying mp3 playback was one of its features was one if it's selling points. I don't recall any other phone on the market that includes this feature that actually skips like the 700p does, (WM5 or otherwise). For a device that markets this as a feature, ANY inconsistencies in audio playback whatsoever should be considered intolerable.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by Merlyn_3D View Post
    I just read the letter again....does anyone else notice that he says that there essentially might be NOTHING they can do to completely alleviate the audio (mp3) playback problem? That's essentially what he says. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole point of including PTunes and saying mp3 playback was one of its features was one if it's selling points. I don't recall any other phone on the market that includes this feature that actually skips like the 700p does, (WM5 or otherwise). For a device that markets this as a feature, ANY inconsistencies in audio playback whatsoever should be considered intolerable.
    I agree. I also like how he hints at the 650 being much faster than the 700p but never comes out and says it. He also blames others for Palm's garbage BT implementation.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by noodle View Post
    Seems to me they are misplacing blame on the inconsistant bluetooth standard, when the real case is how Palm implemented it. Don't add bluetooth if you can't do it right.

    Also, he blamed their communication on power user/ regular user discrepancy, nonsense...

    Its still sounds to me they are dodging their mistakes, and are making the judgement that they can get away with this beurocratic reasoning for releasing a sub par product and delaying tech support indefinately, while picking and choosing which complaints are"powerusers" and which are "regular users"

    Palm, You don't pick and choose, you serve all your valuable consumers and update the problems with this phone so we may all use as advertised!

    I for one am very dissapointed and would be happy to sue
    Show me a single Bluetooth device that can pair and function perfectly with every headset/accessory out there. I personally don't know of one, if Bluetooth was a properly defined standard, this would not be so difficult to do.

    Yes the decision to release the 700p with a shared architecture may have been a bad one for them looking back now... it's possible at the time this did not seem like it would be as much of a problem as it turned out to be. While this would affect power users who were used to pushing their 650s to the max, for me it really doesn't matter much as the 700p is still faster overall in normal use than the newest WM2005 devices I've played around with recently. I realize this is a lame standard to hold it to, but as someone else was saying there is no such thing as a perfect smartphone out there (and from the overall looks of it there may not be for a while).
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by ajabbari View Post
    Show me a single Bluetooth device that can pair and function perfectly with every headset/accessory out there. I personally don't know of one, if Bluetooth was a properly defined standard, this would not be so difficult to do.
    The integrated BT on my thinkpad t43 (uses the widcomm stack). I seriously have never ran into trouble with it, it's compatible with everything I throw at it.
  10.    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Merlyn_3D View Post
    I just read the letter again....does anyone else notice that he says that there essentially might be NOTHING they can do to completely alleviate the audio (mp3) playback problem?
    Well, it's not 'nothing' but it's not great either:

    This is another area where we are making some changes in audio buffering although the stuttering won’t be 100% eliminated on this particular device. These changes will be released as part of a formal ROM update planned for availability in late Q1 2007. That 700p ROM update will roll in the Bluetooth patch I mentioned above as well as a number of other enhancements to system stability, reliability and performance.
    I suppose it's possible that it's a case of "I better not promise to completely eliminate all audio stutter just in case," but it does seem like what's necessary is some sort of adjustment to PTunes rather than to the 700p itself.

    I wonder - do other audio programs have the same stutter issues? Hm. Wish I has a 700p so I could be smarter about this stuff. ah well.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus View Post
    some sort of adjustment to PTunes rather than to the 700p itself.

    I wonder - do other audio programs have the same stutter issues?
    Other audio programs stutter as well. Ptunes is not to blame here. Another reason I say this is because I used a very cpu intensive game on the 700P: bike or die. The game played flawlessly but skipped at a regularly repeating interval a la ptunes.
    My Freebie Java Widgets (Compatible with 650, 680, 700p & 755p)
    HourlyXCast - Hourly & 7 Day Forecasts! Weather Graphics, Radar Images & Alerts. "When 'PM Showers' just doesn't cut it"
    - RottenTomatoMeter - Movie Ratings, Reviews, Showtimes for New Movies & DVDs
    - TV2Nite - Calendar Events for your Favorite TV Shows!
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ohmster View Post
    There is some hope, but I am very disappointed with the response to the lags. Basically we are being told that if we want 650 equivalent speed, get another device. Or did I read this wrong?
    Well, I suppose that might be the end result. But what I found interesting in that comment was the indication that it was somehow related to issues associated with sharing the hardware platform between WM and POS... and that this resulted in potentially longer times to close and open DB's. If the cause is due to hardware differences in storage, for example, there's probably not a lot they could do in software to fix it... but perhaps minimize it through application tweaks. I know a few developers, including MantraGroup (Causerie IM), have tweaked applications already to try and reduce lag... but couldn't get rid of it completely.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by Treolo View Post
    Are we responsible for them making this stupid decision? I can see Palm OS engineers telling Palm executives that a 700p with the same hardware as the 700w will not work well, and Palm executives saying that it doesn't matter because people like us are still gonna buy it because it has an EVDO radio.
    Although it probably wouldn't have happened in a single conversation or even between the same people over time, I'm guessing you're correct. Palm is apparently making lots of compromises... not the least of which was adding WM to their line-up. This doesn't absolve them, of course. And, yes, I think customers did wind up getting jacked in the process. But there's only one thing these companies really understand at the end of the day...

    ... how people vote with their $$$.
  14. aayz's Avatar
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    #54  
    Their (Palm’s) letter is a joke.
    So, the Blue tooth is what we all were fighting for???
    The fact that Treo 700p can’t be used as a simple reliable cell phone does not exist?
    I bought Treo 700p as a business tool. It’s first of all a cell phone, the PDA –is a second and an MP3 player with digital camera and the rest of staff I care less…..
    It freezes up when I am dialing the phone number and resets during the conversation.
    It is also resets when I receive a phone call and when it finally turns back on I have no idea who actually called me, the phone number has gone.
    Since it has been replaced for the fourth time, I haven’t installed any third party applications or even synchronized with my laptop. I kept it in its original stage, and guess what; it would repeat all the previous problems.
    This company (Palm) is simply commits a crime by releasing a product to the market in its raw stage and we instead of fighting these hoodlums are getting excited by their fake attention.
    They do not have a right to sell the next product before the previous one is working flawlessly.
    By the time they released the ROM update this “revolutionary” new device is an old story…
    My personal opinion, we should send our original letter to Better Business Bureau, maybe even Federal Trade Commission.
    I do not see much of a difference between Enron and Palm.
    Last edited by aayz; 12/14/2006 at 06:10 PM.
  15. robguz's Avatar
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    #55  
    The biggest issue, unfortunately not a focus of the original letter here is the random resets. They seem to get worse over time without having added any software. Palm barely mentions improving stability in their letter, but let's hope it happens. The issue of multiple carriers was true since the first Treo, and they got updates to the 650 within 2 months, so that is no excuse. The idea that it's mostly a 3rd party software problem with the delay in app switching is just stupid. The single biggest delay is launching blazer. It often takes nearly 30 seconds for it to be usable, which completely negates any benefits of EVDO when trying to look up something quickly. My Treo 600 was FAR faster in this regard.
  16. #56  
    What about the text message lag issue? I don't see anyone saying anything about it. The letter didn't address it either. I know the other three issues are big but to be honest, the text lag issue is just unacceptable! I'm I the only one that experiences this????

    I wish Palm would have addressed this too!

    Sometimes my phone lags for 2 to 3 minutes, sometimes it lags for 2 to 30 seconds. It’s intermittent…. Sometimes I don’t get any lag at all. It doesn’t make any sense.

    Texting on the 700P simply sucks.
  17. #57  
    I am a relatively happy 700p owner as despite the Bluetooth troubles, my 700p is far more stable than my 650 was. Even so, I signed the letter because I understand the issues raised and that some many of us power users are having them.

    I am pleased that Palm has responded. The true test of Palm's interest in its customers, however, is follow-through in terms of delivery of software (or even hardware!) improvements. I don't think they'll make Q1 2007 from the experience so far with this phone, but if they do I'll certainly be happy. More important, though, is whether they continue to communicate with us, even to say "hey, this release will be later than we thought". That's all I'm asking for, as an 8-year Palm customer.
    Palm IIIx>Palm Vx>Palm m515>Tungsten T>Tungsten C>Verizon Treo 650
    ................................StarTAC 7868W>Motorola V710>Verizon Treo 650>Treo 700p>Apple iPhone 3G
  18. edoan's Avatar
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    #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by Merlyn_3D View Post
    I distinctly remember many samsung phones on sprint (due to sprint's firmware over the air feature) getting updates only 1-2 maybe 3 months after release.
    That's for the PRL (Preferred Roaming List), not an actual phone firmware update. To get a real firmware update, you have to go into the store. There's no way Sprint would possibly let phones get bricked by updating over the air - imagine if there was a dropped packet while you were reflashing the firmware!
  19. edoan's Avatar
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    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by Joad View Post
    I didn't think the WinMob phone had anything to do with the internals of the 700p, but if I'm reading "the response" correctly it seems we have Microsoft to blame for the difference in the 700p's memory architecture creating the tons of lag compared to the 650. Selling your soul to Redmond has it's costs I guess. Then again - any reason Palm couldn't design the memory architecture around the PalmOS and make the WinMob suffer...?
    It was probably easier to tweak FrankenGarnet to run on a WinMo5-compatible memory architecture than to convince Microsoft to tweak their OS to run on a PalmOS memory model. My hunch is that there's probably some emulation or added translation layer going back and forth to memory. Besides, from a business perspective, I'll bet Palm sells many more 700w/wx's than 700p's. Consumers like you and I love PalmOS, but it's corporate buyers purchasing hundreds of 700w/wx's at a time that dictate what Palm does with their products.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by edoan View Post
    That's for the PRL (Preferred Roaming List), not an actual phone firmware update. To get a real firmware update, you have to go into the store. There's no way Sprint would possibly let phones get bricked by updating over the air - imagine if there was a dropped packet while you were reflashing the firmware!
    You couldn't be more wrong. FOTA has been around for along time now. Look it up.
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