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  1.    #1  
    I just saw this, will check it out later tonight. It's supposed to work with the existing GPS 10 bluetooth units and the upcoming Mobile 10 devices.

    http://www.garmin.com/support/downlo...ls.jsp?id=1913

    UPDATE: program does not work on a Verizon 650. The Windows setup program HotSyncs the 1774 (!) files to the SD card on the Treo properly, then you're supposed to update the GPS 10 receiver software, and finally remove and re-insert the SD card to install the required programs to the Treo's main memory. All this completes properly and you're told that the installation is complete, now press OK to reset the Treo and start using Mobile XT. BUT - when you start Mobile XT, it says that some of the files are the wrong version number, and you need to reinstall Mobile XT by running the XT Setup program. So you go to that program, and every time you try to reinstall, the XT Setup program just crashes the Treo. So you try removing and reinserting the card again, and reinstalling that way, again the installer says everything is fine, but when you try to run Mobile XT or XT Setup, crash again, endless cycle. You can't even use the uninstall feature in XT Setup, it just crashes too.

    UPDATE #2: after carefully deleting every single file in RAM that I could identify as belonging to Mobile XT, then doing the remove/insert SD card thing, now it's working! (XT Setup still doesn't work, gives the same error message as always, but I don't need it now.) From what I can tell the program is doing what its supposed to do, though without access to satellites or maps I can't be sure (see Update #3). One thing I can see is that Mobile XT is much more of a memory hog than Que was, I'm down an additional 4 MB, which is a lot for a 650. I may need UDMH or something if I don't go back to Que.

    UPDATE #3: The GPS 10 receiver barely worked after the unit software update! Most of the time all I get is a solid yellow light, which means "battery is charged" according to the manual. No matter how I press the one and only button or how long/short I hold it down, I can't get anything other than a yellow light or no light. Once in a while I get the flashing blue flashing light indicating that I have a bluetooth connection to the Treo, but still the satellite status page never shows even one satellite acquisition. Also, Mobile XT doesn't recognize my GPS 10 unit ID, so it won't unlock my maps. Even my laptop won't connect with the GPS 10 after the unit software "update" - nRoutes keeps switching between the status messages "Attempting connection to GPS" and "Connection Broken" every couple of seconds, with an almost subliminal flash of "Searching for Satellites" in between. I contacted Garmin's customer service and they showed me how to update the GPS from the "WebUpdater" application (drag the 033401000230.RGN file to the WebUpdater icon works, even though you're not using any web resources), and it updated the GPS 10 and now it's working fine.
    Last edited by bobodobo; 12/05/2006 at 04:38 PM.
  2. #2  
    I liiikeeee. How much?
    Pilot 5K->Palm IIIc->Tungsten T/T2->Treo 650/680 -> Pre+ (1.4.5 & Uberkernel)
  3.    #3  
    Nothing, if you already have the GPS 10. If you don't have it, this software won't do anything for you.
  4.    #4  
    Ok, now that I've got everything working on my 650 and had a chance to play with Mobile XT for a couple of days, here are my initial impressions:

    A. Keys to installation are
    1. Be sure to uninstall Que via its setup program before installing Mobile XT.
    2. Be sure to have lots of RAM available - move everything possible to the SD card.
    3. Beware of the possible problem with the GPS 10 unit update as mentioned in my first post.

    B. The biggest problems are:
    1. It's a real memory hog. In RAM there are 2 huge files totaling 7.2 MB, plus a few others. A slight plus is that there are far fewer files stored permanently in RAM than was the case with Que. I had to install UDMH before I could shoe-horn Mobile XT onto my 650 and get it to cohabit with my existing RAM-only apps. Funny thing is, now everything is ok whether UDMH is running or not. (I still don't understand what UDMH does, but that's another topic.)
    2. Perhaps as a result of 1., I have had a few crashes already whereas Que is rock-solid stable. Perhaps this wouldn't be a problem with a 700p because of its much larger RAM.
    3. It's also a real battery killer, much more so than Que it seems.

    C. Most of the new features are not quite as good as I had hoped:
    1. The 3D view is nice but the main map page is cluttered with huge data fields, which minimizes the available screen space for map display. I liked the way Que kept the data fields small, and you could turn some of them off.
    2. The ability to access your Palm address book is nice, but for some reason many addresses don't work. The address has to be formatted "just so" or XT won't recognize it.
    3. The large on-screen "buttons" make the use of the stylus unnecessary, in fact you can do most everything with the 5-way button and/or your thumb. However, Mobile XT doesn't make use of the "Menu" key on the Palm at all, and only moderate use of the left-right part of the 5-way button (very un-Palm-like).
    4. Garmin Online services (e.g. traffic) are not supported, perhaps because this is still beta software. (The help tutorial within Mobile XT tantalizes the user with the mention of many services, most of which are said to be free.)
    5. Tracks are NOT implemented, even though the manual shows it (granted, the manual has "preliminary" plastered on every page.)

    D. Some things are about the same with Mobile XT as it was with Que:
    1. The speed of processor-intensive tasks like routing, map redrawing, etc. is about the same.
    2. One can use either street maps or topo maps (of course, the topo maps don't support street routing).
    3. Finding services, addresses, etc. is much different with XT than with Que and at first it seems a bit more difficult on XT, but I think that as I get more familiar with XT this impression will evaporate.
    4. The routing engine seems to be the same as Que, mostly it works fine but in certain locations it creates the same stupid routes that Que did.
    5. XT seems to run fine in the background, or in the foreground with other tasks (e.g. PocketTunes) running in the background.

    So is it worth the switch from Que to Mobile XT? It's free, after all. At this point I would say probably NOT if you're already comfortable with Que. The biggest single problem is the memory required, which is huge for a 650. In contrast, the Que interface is plain vanilla but nimble, functional and resource-efficient considering all that it has to do. Mobile XT might be better if you're new to the device, or really like the easier "thumbscreening" and the 3D view and can live with the memory requirements.

    I still haven't decided whether to switch back or not. I'll give it a few more days.
    Last edited by bobodobo; 12/06/2006 at 12:36 PM.
  5. #5  
    Thanks for taking the time to write the review. I'm looking forward to using it with the new 10x receiver. In addition, I have a 700p, so the memory issues shouldn't be such a big deal.
  6. #6  
    Thanks for the review.

    I did not see it before I tried the upgrade, but all is OK.

    I followed the instructions to the letter. Removing the old GPS10 using the GPS10 un-install in setup app seems quite important.

    Next I installed the Mobile XT.

    Then I tried to update the software in my Receiver, from V2.20 to V2.30. It seemed to be going OK and then got stuck, so I reset the Treo and tried again. This time it reported from the start that the Receiver was V2.30, so it seems like the update can work very quickly.

    Next I ran the main installer, this takes the form of a start.prc file on your card.

    This is where my problems began. It worked OK to start with, but failed with a report of low memory.

    I had to do a warm reset get out of the loop, and then found that I only had 0.40 mb of RAM left. What had happened was that I had got DBCache set to flush at Reset, this conflicted with the setup and somehow created a DBCache temporary db file of 4mb, which did not help.

    So I deleted this file, turned off DBCache and it all worked OK.

    So now to the new Mobile XT app. It found my BT Receiver, but could not find any satellites, plus the serial number was not registered within Mobile XT, so I'm not sure if the BT Receiver had upgraded OK, or what the problem was.

    So now proceeding without a signal, or any maps due to the above, I then tried the application.

    As said in the previous review, it looks nice but does not add many features, plus it's a bit cluttered. I expect I'd grow to like it in time if I had decided to keep it. POI's seem to be supported, which is good news, as do speed cameras. It looks like you have to download both of these from Garmin, but I'm not sure.

    However the memory used was the killer for me.

    Before I started I had about 8.4 mb free when the GPS10 apps were loaded into RAM. After I had removed them I was up to 12.1mb free.
    After the Mobile XT install I was down to 4mb

    More over, when running GPS10 my DB Cache would remain at about 10mb, as it takes it's 1 or 2mb when you do a reset and it loads up into memory.

    However when I started Mobile XT each time my free DB Cache drops from about 11mb to about 5mb. This then leads to random resets when using the application.

    So I also have decided to stick with my old GPS10 software. As said in the above post, it's simple, clean, uses very little memory and works Very well

    I'm lucky that I did a Resco backup before I started to un-install the GPS10, as I just did a hard reset and restore, and I was back in business.

    My "updated" BT Receiver still works OK with my old software, I assume it updated OK but does not affect the GPS10 setup?

    If and when I get a 680 I will give it another go with the more memory.

    Does anyone know how much DB Cache the 680 has out of the box?

    By then this beta software might be better as well
    Last edited by ChasT; 12/11/2006 at 05:38 AM.
    Thought of the day :
    No sense being pessimistic, it probably wouldn't work anyway
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by ChasT View Post
    Thanks for the review.
    Does anyone know how much DB Cache the 680 has out of the box?
    The 680 has about 24mb of total free DB Cache, which at about 10mb more than the 650 will make a big difference to this app.

    I don't know if it's just a good day today, but my BT Receiver seems to be getting a stronger signal since I upgraded the software in it ?
    Thought of the day :
    No sense being pessimistic, it probably wouldn't work anyway
  8.    #8  
    It would be great if someone with a 680 or 700p who uses the GPS 10 would try out Mobile XT and let us know if its stability problems are just a function of the limited memory on the 650, or if there is a more inherent problem with the current beta version of XT.
  9. #9  
    I just downloaded it yesterday, and played a little today. I would agree with Bobodobo and ChasT on most of their critiques of the Garmin Mobile XT. It is a memory hog, and I believe that it can only be installed in Main Memory. A large drawback. The other drawback is the random resets. Perhaps it is a memory problem as ChasT suggests. I am running out with Google maps, and Kinoma installed.

    I liked the Que resonably well, and was used to the controls. All the functionality of Que seems to be there, just in different places. There is some additional functionallity in the Mobile XT that are nice touches. For example, you can choose your language without having to download it from the website. There seem to be over 10. I guess I could do without the RAM loss though. The wireless services are why I will stick it out with Mobile XT for a bit. They work for me, perhaps the server is up now. I can't get the traffic working though. I don't have the basemap installed for memory reasons, and it looks like you may need that to get it working. I can get weather, Hotel rates, and most importantly fuel prices. These are possibly the most accurate fuel prices out there since they are not reported by people, but rather the credit card receipts that come from the station. I am not sure how they get the number of gallons vs. total price to get a price per gallon, but I think they actually do. It is quite exciting to think I will know the cheapest gas in town without any searching. However, if the gas station does not accept credit cards (Arco, costco).
  10.    #10  
    mn23, you're right, the online services work now, except for traffic. I'm not sure why traffic doesn't work, I get a message saying "Detail Maps Don't Support Traffic". That doesn't make sense because I have Garmin's latest top-of-the line US road map set. Even if the maps don't support traffic-related routing, I should at least get a list of traffic events. And my.garmin.com doesn't give me an option to subscribe to traffic, if traffic is a pay-for-subscription service. Apparently internet-accessed traffic data isn't available from Garmin yet, it's only available from FM or satellite service partners using a dedicated receiver (which is imbedded in some of their automotive GPS units.)
  11. bitmage's Avatar
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    #11  
    I downloaded it last night for my 700p. First impressions:

    The firmware update to the GPS10 took 20-30 min on my Treo with me occasionally tapping the screen to make sure it didn't sleep. I'm wondering if some of the above 'hangs' were actually still going. My progress bar would move a pixel only once a minute or so. And the progress bar started over three times.

    After that nerve-wracking experience, the XT app started fine on card removal/reinsertion.

    Compared to Que:

    Good:
    Volume is _much_ better. At 100% Que was barely audible. At 80% XT is loud.

    Que visibly slowed down my 700p even when disconnected and not in use, to the point that I would delete it and reinstall from backup when I needed a GPS. XT does not have this problem - once you've shut it down the Treo functions at normal speed.

    There's a 3-d map display now, along with the usual North Up/Track Up 2d options. (but see below about misuse of screen real estate)

    There's a trip computer, which is standard on Garmin's dedicated GPS units, but was missing in Que.

    The Treo now stays on while navigating, without having to use AlwaysOn.

    Bad:

    The upgrade lost all my waypoints. I had backed up the waypoint database, but XT seems to use a different format and won't recognize it. I'm asking Garmin if they have any conversion utility available...

    The main map screen wastes way too much space on text borders. I've sent a feature request to the beta address asking that they make this an adjustable option. You can switch to the 'Browse map' view and get a top down view similar to the old Que display, but it lacks speed/turns info.

    Maneuvering through the app is...odd. I'd gotten used to Que's right-left on the 5-way navigation. Now everything is buried in menus, and when you get 5 levels deep in one you have to back all the way out to return to the map display. I'm guessing this interface is a copy of their newer dedicated units, and a nod to TomTom.

    There's a built-in help system, but it's painfully slow. It takes 3-4 sec to page down or up in it.

    Bluetooth linkup is still squirrely. It seems to do better finding the GPS10 than Que did, but I've still seen some issues. On one occasion it linked and started searching for sats. My attempt to start a route was met with a 'Wating for better satellite reception' message. When that hadn't gone away in five min, I canceled the route and checked the GPS status screen to find that it had no info. Turning the GPS10 off and on fixed it.


    I'll be using it on a trip this weekend, so I'll see how it does. Remember that this is still a beta, now is a great chance to email Garmin and see if you can get things improved!
  12. bitmage's Avatar
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    #12  
    Garmin responded to one of my emails asking about the map display and about removing unneeded language files from the SD card:

    "Thank you very much for your response regarding the mobile XT software. I have carefully reviewed your comments and want to let you know that you cannot turn off the top and bottom info bars in order to view a larger map. I have asked many of the Engineers here and they all came to the same conclusion that it would be to complicated to impliment that kind of feature.

    You can safely delete the files that you do not want on your card. yes it will help save alot of memory. if you want english ONLY have this on your card:

    In the help folder located at (\Garmin\Help\) just keep the 'eng' folder, and you can delete all of the other help folders (NOTE: it may take a while).

    In the voice folder located at (\Garmin\Voice\) just keep the 'English_American_.vpm' file, and you can delete all of the voice files located in that folder.

    The other voices, and help files just won't operate for those options available. It would act the same as trying to access those files without your card insertted."


    So a disappointment on the screen, but you can get rid of some of the excess stuff it puts on the SD. He also said that they are looking into the waypoint conversion issue.
  13.    #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by bitmage View Post
    Garmin responded to one of my emails asking about the map display and about removing unneeded language files from the SD card:
    "Thank you very much for your response regarding the mobile XT software. I have carefully reviewed your comments and want to let you know that you cannot turn off the top and bottom info bars in order to view a larger map. I have asked many of the Engineers here and they all came to the same conclusion that it would be to complicated to impliment that kind of feature..."
    Huh??? Que already does this! You can have 2, 1 or 0 top info bar fields. Don't the Garmin reps even know their own products?

    On the positive side, the fact that the customer service rep even checked with the tech people and responded to your email says much about Garmin's customer service. I had a very good experience the one time I needed to contact them.
    Last edited by bobodobo; 12/15/2006 at 10:20 AM. Reason: Correction of feature listing
  14. #14  
    You can safely delete the files that you do not want on your card. yes it will help save alot of memory. if you want english ONLY have this on your card:

    In the help folder located at (\Garmin\Help\) just keep the 'eng' folder, and you can delete all of the other help folders (NOTE: it may take a while).
    Does this save any space in main memory? Seems not. Is there anything we can do to save main memory?

    A question for Bobodobo re:

    Tracks are NOT implemented, even though the manual shows it (granted, the manual has "preliminary" plastered on every page.)
    Could you provide a link to the manual? I did a little searching on Garmin's site and treocentral, but to no avail.

    Also for Bobodobo re:

    Detail Maps Don't Support Traffic". That doesn't make sense because I have Garmin's latest top-of-the line US road map set. Even if the maps don't support traffic-related routing, I should at least get a list of traffic events.
    Do you have the basemap installed? I don't, and was wondering if Garmin only related the traffic data to main roads.
    Last edited by mn23; 12/12/2006 at 06:38 PM.
  15.    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by mn23 View Post
    Does this save any space in main memory? Seems not. Is there anything we can do to save main memory?
    This saves space on the SD card but not RAM. A small help, but not what we really need. As far as I can tell, the problem is those 2 huge files which have to stay in RAM. I doubt there's any way to avoid it.
    Quote Originally Posted by mn23 View Post
    Could you provide a link to the manual? I did a little searching on Garmin's site and treocentral, but to no avail.
    It's here, under the Mobile XT for Pocket PC sub-heading. I can't seem to open the page at the moment; if you can't open it either, PM me and I'll email you a copy of the manual.
    Quote Originally Posted by mn23 View Post
    Do you have the basemap installed? I don't, and was wondering if Garmin only related the traffic data to main roads.
    Yes. I have the world basemap installed on the SD card (no way could it fit in main memory.)
  16. #16  
    Thanks Bobodobo for the link to the manual. It is odd to have a pdf file downloaded as an .exe, but it works.
  17.    #17  
    Update: reluctantly I decided to go back to Que. Just not enough new/improved features to justify the difficulties of RAM usage. I got a reset almost every time I started Mobile XT, and it was just too difficult to try to distribute the limited remaining memory among my other RAM-only apps. (I only have three large ones - VoiceDial, PocketTunes basic and Palmary Clock, totalling about 3 MB). There really wasn't even enough memory for Mobile XT's own voice instructions to play properly - that poor woman's voice was sooo choppy. Anyway I have about 4 MB more free RAM with Que than XT.

    Probably when I upgrade to the 700p or its successor with the additional RAM, EVDO and ROM update (ha, ha) I'll move back up to Mobile XT.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by bobodobo View Post
    Probably when I upgrade to the 700p or its successor with the additional RAM, EVDO and ROM update (ha, ha) I'll move back up to Mobile XT.
    I have more or less come to the same conclusion about the memory issue.

    Hopefully at some stage I will get a 680, after which time I will give it another try.

    I wonder why Garmin are listing the 650 as OK for this upgrade. could it be that they are assuming that we are all running empty 650's with about 18mb free ram?

    It would be interesting to see how well it would work on a "Clean" 650.

    For me, the GPS10 is very reliable and uses such a low amount of RAM and Dbcache.

    I wonder if the same will be said about Mobile XT running on a 680/700 ?

    I hope so
    Thought of the day :
    No sense being pessimistic, it probably wouldn't work anyway
  19. bitmage's Avatar
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    #19  
    I did a two-day road trip last weekend using Mobile XT for navigation. I have a 700p, but I still had some issues:

    I received two TXT messages while driving on a route. Both times the Treo locked up hard within a few seconds of the messages arriving.

    I had several lockups while calculating routes. One occurred during a route recalculation, and after reset the XT app acted like it was a new install, going back through the 'choose language, mileage unit, etc' screens. The current route, recent finds, and trip computer info was gone. Fortunately it wasn't during a difficult part of the route.

    Incoming phone calls worked ok, but restarted the Treo's auto-off timer, so that it began turning off two minutes later. Exiting XT and restarting it fixed the problem.

    The 3D map has no distance scale shown, so it can be hard to tell how far ahead things are in the display. Otherwise the 3D view worked pretty good. The text directions are done well enough that I find myself going by the voice prompts and text boxes more than the map - i.e. "Exit right to I40W at exit 10B" - I can take it from there without looking at the map any further. XT now generates an imperative "Turn right" prompt just before turn time that also works well.

    The menu system is clunky, but you can get to most important things directly from the main map display. Tap on the upcoming turn text at top to go to the route details screen, on speed to see trip computer, etc.

    Wait until it has a sat fix and position before starting a route plan. Twice I fired up XT, let it find the GPS10, and then told it to route to a destination while it was still searching for sats. Both times it brought up a 'waiting for better GPS position' dialog and stuck there. Canceling the route and going to the GPS screen showed that it had lost synch with the GPS10. No battery data or options would be displayed. Getting it unstuck required power cycling the GPS10 and restarting XT, sometimes several times. Waiting until the 'Ready to navigate' display before building a route prevented the issue.

    The nervewracking part was the lockups. They didn't happen often, but I was nervous during 'interesting' parts of my route that something would make it freeze and leave me looking for a place to pull over while I got it rebooted.

    I've reported the above to Garmin, and they have been responsive to some of my earlier bug reports so I have high hopes that they'll get these ironed out before final release. I just hope that they can track down the crash issues.
  20.    #20  
    Thanks for the report. It's interesting to know that at least some of the crashes are not related to insufficient free RAM on 650's. By freezes you mean cases where you have to stop the car, pull out the stylus, pull off the back cover and reset? Bummer... I had a lot of crashes with XT but I don't recall any hard freezes.

    About the scale - at first I was surprised by the lack thereof, but then I realized that with the 3D view, the scale is different for different parts of the map. Still it would be nice to know the scale in (for example) the middle of the map.
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