View Poll Results: Would you support the following campaign to get a 700p firmware update?

Voters
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  • Yes

    410 95.35%
  • No

    20 4.65%
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  1. #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus View Post
    here's the reason for the delay: the letter has actually sparked an interesting conversation amongst the editorial staff here at TC. What does it mean to post such a letter on the frontpage, where's the line between what "TC Says" and what the "Community says," etc. And to be frank: I'm not keen on 'springing' this sort of thing on the world without fair warning. Oh, one more reason, I'm kinda busy.

    Basically, as I think I've said before, I'm sympathetic to both sides here. Aggravating that there isn't a clearer kind of communication from Palm. But also sympathetic to Palm in that they're not a gigantic company, have to deal with carrier approval processes, that (to be blunt) we still mostly just have anecdotal evidence of issues and not proof that there's real bugs (though, again, that issue would be solved with better communication).

    Here's my recommendation if you don't want to wait: Bob-C could start a new thread with the letter in PDF form as an attachment in the first post. Explain the letter and have the thread be the official "reply here to 'sign' the open letter" and keep this current thread around (and link it in the new thread) for more general discussion. I could then more easily post a front-page story about how you folks as a community have rallied together to make a statement about how you'd like better communication from Palm.
    Lame.
  2. #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus View Post
    here's the reason for the delay: the letter has actually sparked an interesting conversation amongst the editorial staff here at TC. What does it mean to post such a letter on the frontpage, where's the line between what "TC Says" and what the "Community says," etc. And to be frank: I'm not keen on 'springing' this sort of thing on the world without fair warning. Oh, one more reason, I'm kinda busy.

    Basically, as I think I've said before, I'm sympathetic to both sides here. Aggravating that there isn't a clearer kind of communication from Palm. But also sympathetic to Palm in that they're not a gigantic company, have to deal with carrier approval processes, that (to be blunt) we still mostly just have anecdotal evidence of issues and not proof that there's real bugs (though, again, that issue would be solved with better communication).

    Here's my recommendation if you don't want to wait: Bob-C could start a new thread with the letter in PDF form as an attachment in the first post. Explain the letter and have the thread be the official "reply here to 'sign' the open letter" and keep this current thread around (and link it in the new thread) for more general discussion. I could then more easily post a front-page story about how you folks as a community have rallied together to make a statement about how you'd like better communication from Palm.
    What a joke! Sounds like that was written by Divine Brown.
  3. #143  
    Septimus:

    First let me say thank you for creating this board; I realize that it is a profit making venture but I think it is generally excellently run and is a huge resource for Treo owners and those considering purchasing Treo devices.

    You greatly underestimate Treocentral's weight in the Treo/Palm community: it almost seems as though you fear some kind of retribution from Palm were you to seek the communication we 700P users need. This board means a lot to Palm from a marketing point of view (I and many others bought Treos only after finding information and advice here) and for CUSTOMER feedback which you should not let them ignore. Either you as editors agree with the 94.12% of the respondents to the poll at the beginning of this thread or you don't. Pick one, please, because we need your help.

    What does "'springing' this sort of thing on the world without fair warning" mean? Every single post here, every single editorial choice you make about what articles to run on your home page is "sprung" on the world. That's what you do, you "spring" stuff about Treos for a living. I believe that you editors must largely agree with the majority of poll respondents, being clearly intelligent people who would necessarily find it uncomfortable to deny the clear evidence of real problems. To state that we "just have anecdotal evidence of issues and not proof that there's real bugs" is at best self-deceptive and at worst disingenuous. The size of Palm and carrier approval processes have nothing to do with the pervasive usability problems we are dealing with every day; we have seen that Palm can be responsive when they choose to be with the recent addressing of the SMS issues on the WX.

    Please, as advocates for the platform and the user base, join us in asking Palm to support the 700P community with that same kind of responsiveness. We are some of the longest standing and most loyal Palm/Treo customers and we deserve better from Palm and more explicit support from you and Treocentral.

    Be well,

    David
  4. #144  
    Septimus, I think what people are looking for here is just an update from palm acknowledging the known issues with the 700p and saying that there is a firmware update on the way. A corporate relations rep at palm told me that they stopped giving dates for firmware updates to customers because sometimes they couldn't meet them and customers would only get angry and bark at tech support. I, for one, would just like to know that palm is commited to fixing the issue, a date isn't as important to me as that.
  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by Merlyn_3D View Post
    Septimus, I think what people are looking for here is just an update from palm acknowledging the known issues with the 700p and saying that there is a firmware update on the way. A corporate relations rep at palm told me that they stopped giving dates for firmware updates to customers because sometimes they couldn't meet them and customers would only get angry and bark at tech support. I, for one, would just like to know that palm is committed to fixing the issue, a date isn't as important to me as that.
    Ditto. Acknowledgment is one thing, commitment is the other one. We need acknowledgment for now. Commitment will come after 30 days of acknowledgment. That will be a brand new thread
    Technological superiority has never won a product battle. If that were the case we would all be flying in supersonic Concordes and using Apple computers.

    The key to winning the battle is a combination of price, convenience, marketing, sound business model and a bit of luck.
  6.    #146  
    I just posted the letter up on the top of the 700p Hardware Forum. I am asking everyone to sign it to keep it bumped up to the top for as long as possible.

    Let's keep in mind that Septimus is not the sole owner of Treocentral. I believe that his efforts to publicize the thread have helped greatly and speaks to his point of view.

    If Septimus could now just report on the letter on the frontpage and then link to the letter, I think it would be greatly beneficial.

    That's it for the moment. I'm running late for work and gotta split. Will have more later. The letter is linked here.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
  7. #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus View Post
    Basically, as I think I've said before, I'm sympathetic to both sides here. Aggravating that there isn't a clearer kind of communication from Palm. But also sympathetic to Palm in that they're not a gigantic company, have to deal with carrier approval processes, that (to be blunt) we still mostly just have anecdotal evidence of issues and not proof that there's real bugs (though, again, that issue would be solved with better communication).
    I think there is MORE than enough evidence that SMS-lockup issues with the Treo 700p (at least with the Verizon model) to prove that it is a real bug. Heck, if that one issue was solved, I'd call this phone pretty good, with a few small issues left to polish off. That one issue though is a a major sore spot.

    I can't see how bugs that are repetetive across multiple users, that can be duplicated under the same conditions, could be considered anecdotal.
    Last edited by LoneWolf15; 11/29/2006 at 09:34 AM.
  8. #148  
    Bob-C,

    Your work in speaking out for all of those who use the Treo700P is commendable. I will say that Iím impressed with your efforts. Great job!

    Being a former Palm employee I know two of the main Escalation Engineers at Palm and I will be more than happy to give you their names and email addresses. I think the best way to escalate this is to email them directly and since you are the forerunner it would be great coming from you. Due to privacy I donít want to post their emails in this forum but if you like send me an email and I will give you their info.

    My email address is andrew.gonzales@sbcglobal.net

    One of the Escalation Engineers is a personal friend of mine and he has been with Palm since the 3Com/Palm spin off. These two Engineers are Palm employees, not out-source engineers.

    Unfortunately, Palm out-sources all of their Technical Support to an out-sourcing company. Being a former employee and seeing the way things are handled and done, they are extremely slow and it is very frustrating.

    I would also recommend sending Ed Colligan and email directlyÖ just my thoughts. Their email format is firstname dot lastname @palm.com.


    Andrew ---
  9. qb11g's Avatar
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    #149  
    Andrew, as a 700p owner and one who supports Bob-C's efforts as well, let me be the first to say thank you for this additional avenue for problem resolution!!
  10. #150  
    PDAGeek Andrew:

    Gracias!! I'm beginning to have hope.

    I wish you a wonderful end of 2006. We might all have functional 700P's with help from people like you...and Palm.

    Be well, all.

    David
    Last edited by dhbuckley; 11/29/2006 at 11:31 AM. Reason: typo
  11. #151  
    Thanks dhbuckley & qb11gÖ

    My impact is small compared to Bob-C.

    I'm just happy that he has taken the bull by the horns and has run with it. Unfortunately, I really don't have the time it takes to get to down and dirty like he has! Most all the users in this forum don't either.

    We just put up with the all the bugs that the 700P inherently possesses, that's why it's important that we ban together so that our voice is heard loud and clear.

    The SMS lock up issue is the most irritating issue for me because I heavily use texting for my business.
  12. #152  
    So I'm one of those people that researches a product before I buy it. I really really want a Treo ... well, I really want what they market as the Treo. I want an contact organizer, cell phone, and wireless capabilities all in one!

    So, I guess I will not be purchasing a Treo for now...

    Thanks for all your time and dedication to contributing the real story to the rest of us.
  13. #153  
    WantATreo's post is EXACTLY why it so much behooves Mr. Colligan and friends to pay attention to us!!

    I too researched here before buying my Treo and if I hadn't already waited 1 year+ for a Palm OS EVDO device and I'd only waited and researched a little longer I wouldn't be holding a device that causes me embarrassment in front of clients when it simply won't accept input or provide output until it FEELS LIKE IT!! (and then it's often too late...)

    Example: Talking on Treo with client who asks for phone number of mutual acquaintance: ME: "I've got it, hang on a sec...", Look up contact on Treo (switching from Phone app to Contacts). Treo: LAAAAG (3-4 secs.), finally ready to accept input. ME: input letters of contacts name or 3 of them and then screen freeze due to TREO LAAAAG again, ME: continue to enter letters, repeating some thinking I hadn't fully hit the screen. CLIENT: "You got it?" ME: "just a sec..." TREO: accepts finally all screen input at once including repeated characters and of course says there is no such contact. CLIENT: "I'll get it from my secretary, thanks anyway." ME: AAARRRGHH!!%^&*

    I haven't even bothered w/ Bluetooth headsets for obvious reasons...I can't afford the time or $ to buy 4 or 5 until the Treo feels like working nicely with one as recounted by so many here.

    This is crazy. And what's soooo bad is that this item is so close to converged wonderfulness if ooooonly they'd give us the UPDATE we need or AT LEAST THE COURTESY to say they're aware of the difficulties and are working on them!

    Sorry for rant but as you all know there is a twisted frustration with this device and this company that is sublimely annoying.

    I still hold out hope, however....
  14. #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by bcaslis View Post
    No direct proof of bug? You've got to be kidding me! I've had every Treo there was and finally gave up on the 700p due to the extremely annonying lag that DOES come back even after hard resets and the like.

    I loved the Verizon data but couldn't take the lags anymore and there really wasn't another device on Verizon I wanted.

    Honestly, no proof? Man, did TC get bought by Palm? This is silly.
    No, we haven't been bought by Palm.

    I'm just saying that it's difficult to diagnose bugs based on us, the power users who push these devices to their limits.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightlight View Post
    What a joke! Sounds like that was written by Divine Brown.
    Well, I *do* have an affinity for Hugh Grant...

    Quote Originally Posted by dhbuckley View Post
    Septimus:

    First let me say thank you for creating this board; I realize that it is a profit making venture but I think it is generally excellently run and is a huge resource for Treo owners and those considering purchasing Treo devices.

    You greatly underestimate Treocentral's weight in the Treo/Palm community: it almost seems as though you fear some kind of retribution from Palm were you to seek the communication we 700P users need. This board means a lot to Palm from a marketing point of view (I and many others bought Treos only after finding information and advice here) and for CUSTOMER feedback which you should not let them ignore. Either you as editors agree with the 94.12% of the respondents to the poll at the beginning of this thread or you don't. Pick one, please, because we need your help.

    What does "'springing' this sort of thing on the world without fair warning" mean? Every single post here, every single editorial choice you make about what articles to run on your home page is "sprung" on the world. That's what you do, you "spring" stuff about Treos for a living. I believe that you editors must largely agree with the majority of poll respondents, being clearly intelligent people who would necessarily find it uncomfortable to deny the clear evidence of real problems. To state that we "just have anecdotal evidence of issues and not proof that there's real bugs" is at best self-deceptive and at worst disingenuous. The size of Palm and carrier approval processes have nothing to do with the pervasive usability problems we are dealing with every day; we have seen that Palm can be responsive when they choose to be with the recent addressing of the SMS issues on the WX.

    Please, as advocates for the platform and the user base, join us in asking Palm to support the 700P community with that same kind of responsiveness. We are some of the longest standing and most loyal Palm/Treo customers and we deserve better from Palm and more explicit support from you and Treocentral.

    Be well,

    David
    Thanks for your thoughts, David. Believe me, I'm fully on board with wanting clearer and more explicit communication from Palm about bugs, future updates, and the like. I've been clear with them that we want that and will continue to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Merlyn_3D View Post
    Septimus, I think what people are looking for here is just an update from palm acknowledging the known issues with the 700p and saying that there is a firmware update on the way. A corporate relations rep at palm told me that they stopped giving dates for firmware updates to customers because sometimes they couldn't meet them and customers would only get angry and bark at tech support. I, for one, would just like to know that palm is commited to fixing the issue, a date isn't as important to me as that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ehsan View Post
    Ditto. Acknowledgment is one thing, commitment is the other one. We need acknowledgment for now. Commitment will come after 30 days of acknowledgment. That will be a brand new thread
    Double

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob-C View Post
    I just posted the letter up on the top of the 700p Hardware Forum. I am asking everyone to sign it to keep it bumped up to the top for as long as possible.

    Let's keep in mind that Septimus is not the sole owner of Treocentral. I believe that his efforts to publicize the thread have helped greatly and speaks to his point of view.

    If Septimus could now just report on the letter on the frontpage and then link to the letter, I think it would be greatly beneficial.

    That's it for the moment. I'm running late for work and gotta split. Will have more later. The letter is linked here.
    Looks like the new thread is getting a lot of play. I should have something up on the front page by tomorrow morning.

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneWolf15 View Post
    I think there is MORE than enough evidence that SMS-lockup issues with the Treo 700p (at least with the Verizon model) to prove that it is a real bug. Heck, if that one issue was solved, I'd call this phone pretty good, with a few small issues left to polish off. That one issue though is a a major sore spot.

    I can't see how bugs that are repetetive across multiple users, that can be duplicated under the same conditions, could be considered anecdotal.
    Ok, I guess I should be clearer, my apologies to everybody for using the word 'anecdotal.'

    What I meant was "I'm not an engineer and my ignorance about OS bugs leads me to be very cautious about calling things systematic bugs. I'm also hyper-aware that we as users tend to really push these things and also are more aware of lag and other issues than your standard user. Finally, I'm aware that me saying "This is a bug" when I myself can't say for sure that it is dicey as I do have a bit of the bully pulpit. So while I personally believe that there are serious bugs in the 700p, I can't say that I know there are for sure."

    **Septimus sheepishly shrugs**
  15. #155  
    Looks like the new thread is getting a lot of play. I should have something up on the front page by tomorrow morning.
    Or more likely this evening. FWIW, I'll be out of town from Fri - Mon (CANCUN!).
  16. #156  
    Septimus:

    Have a good time. Going underwater w/ air on your back?

    Don't bring your Treo!

    Be well,

    David
  17. #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by dhbuckley View Post
    Septimus:

    Have a good time. Going underwater w/ air on your back?

    Don't bring your Treo!

    Be well,

    David
    No idea. It was completely spur-of-the-moment. The cold finally just hit here in Minnesota and I couldn't handle it.

    Don't bring my Treo, eh? Too bad I don't have that new otterbox...

    edit to bring this post on topic: posted the front page story
    Last edited by Dieter Bohn; 11/30/2006 at 12:36 PM.
  18. howiej1's Avatar
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    #158  
    I think I have a solution here that may work for us Poor 700P users. I too paid $550.00 for a 650 two years ago, only to go through a nightmare with Palm and Sprint and wound up with 6 or 7 of them. Anyway, after a long talk with Sprint I got the 700P thinking it was and upgrade. Unfortunately, this POS (not Palm OS) hangs, and also resets in the middle of important business calls. I have had it with Palm no acknowldging the problems, just like they refused to acknowledge the sound issue with the first batch of 650's


    The bottom line here is that the only way I got Sprint to jump was to..... File a BBB complaint against Palm online and you should receive a call back in a week or so. I believe this is the only way to get their attention, besides barraging the media outlets. I encourage everyone to do so, and maybe, just maybe somethin will happen and we can have a working device.
  19. #159  
    I posted this in the other thread as well, but wanted to voice my support here in case this is where the final count is being determined. Consider the list signed by me as well. I've also written an open letter to Palm which I'm posting here... anyone that knows of a non-generic email address I can send it to, please let me know:

    As a longtime Treo user (I bought the original 180p on the day of release -- one of the few holdouts for a Graffiti interface!), I've had more than my fair share of frustration with smart phones, particularly Treos in general. In the past years, I've grown past the 180, watched the 270 emerge, the evolution of the 270 to the 300... the maturity of the 300 to the 600 & 650... all with varying hiccups along the way which I've endured with a minimum of gripes. Although Palm has notoriously been less than forward with their plans for future firmware upgrades/fixes, I've learned to live with that -- or so I thought.

    When I first received my 650, it was (in my eyes) a great improvement over the 600. Although I experienced bugs as an early adopter and sometimes felt updates were not as frequent or timely as they should have been, I remained patient. With time, nearly all of my issues were addressed -- stability issues, free RAM issues, even bluetooth support.

    However, when moving from the 650 to the 700, everything changed. My bluetooth, which worked perfectly in my 650 with my 2006 Audi A4 (which, I might add, was utilized by Palm in press releases and advertisements such as "Treo + Audi: Handsfree Calling -- The Way It Should Be" (see Palm's site at http://www.palm.com/us/products/smar.../treo650/audi/) , is now so hazardous to use in my car that I've resorted to pulling off the road and using my handset directly. This is unacceptable to have a "upgrade" which doesn't support the same functionality that was advertised to the general public. This should have:

    a) been disclosed in the original "Treo + Audi" ads (i.e. a disclaimer stating that this technology is *ONLY* available on the 650 and not future models.)

    and

    b) information on Palm's website pertaining to the 700p should have prominently displayed that not all features of the 650 are supported on the 700p. A simple technote (http://kb.palmone.com/SRVS/CGI-BIN/W...ase=obj(42719)) is not sufficient, and to my knowledge there is no evidence that this was even available on their knowledge base before the product shipped.

    Furthermore, my bluetooth headset, a Plantronics Discovery 640 which was highly recommended for its compatibility with the Treo 650, experiences frequent disconnects as well... leading me to believe the entire bluetooth implementation is shoddy at best. Once again, to regress to an unusable feature during an "equipment upgrade" is unacceptable.

    Combined with the other known issues (delay in application switching, general instability, lockup during/loss of SMS messaging, etc) and Palm's apparent lack of concern towards informing their user base, I find myself finding it harder and harder to justify my use of these devices. I am an IT manager tasked in part with supporting an ever-growing Treo network, and despite the continued frustration my company experiences with these devices, I've managed to fight off the move to another platform for a few years now. As it stands today, my CIO is fed up and wants us to drop Palm entirely and replace everything with Blackberries as "they just work". With each day that passes with no word from Palm, I find myself agreeing with him more and more.

    Palm, please don't make me wrong on this. We all know you strive to produce the best handhelds in the industry; we just need you to spend a bit less time on new product launches, and a bit more time in committing to update timetables and keeping your current customers informed.
    obscure information.
  20.    #160  
    Thanks to Septimus for giving the letter the attention of the frontpage. I hope you have fun in Cancun meeting a couple of senoritas with a taste for margaritas.

    I have been sitting back reading the letter thread and just letting it develop on its own. I am fascinated with the many ways it has developed. Hearing from so many longtime Palm users and consultants about how they can no longer recommend the 700p to anyone should make Palm wake up. Hopefully the thread is showing up on the radar of persons at Palm who can rectify the issues brought to their attention.

    I would appreciate anything that can be done to increase the visibility of the letter on other sites such as Endgadget, Treonauts, Palm Info Center, etc. I am going to try emailing the letter to some of those Palm email addresses listed above today including another to their general support department. Then I am planning on sending it overnight to Colligan on Monday.

    I figure we give it a couple of days to bake and see what comes out of the oven. If it doesn't look tasty, we can always escalate the visibility to other websites.

    I truly believe that if we keep working at this, Palm will have no choice but to respond. Thanks to everyone for their efforts. I applaud each and every one of you.
    ROOTING for WebOS makes me more sympathetic to Cubs fans.
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